Automobiles

[jitahs]

-- david is so correct relative to ev vs ice.. look back at ole henry's model a, the norm and majority --- out of their price range, but look today..
ev's so correct for local around town, commute, and low mile driving in a close radius..

from a lube guy having made my living as such, look at petroleum companies and their re-look at what produces kilowatts..

ronnie with a plug-in smile

Repeating what your friend says doesn't make it correct. Think of it has a big golf cart - you're in Florida, after all.

[Saab2000]

The timing here is ironic - I'm in Albany, NY this morning and after breakfast I wandered across the street to the mall and there are a few Tesla parking spots with chargers. Unfortunately, they were all empty but that's beside the point. The mall wasn't really open yet either.

Are Tesla charging/parking spots universal? Or specific? Could a Mitsubishi EV owner use it? Or a Leaf driver? This should be a priority for the EV industry. A universal charging standard will benefit them all.

I would consider an EV for my next vehicle but I'm not in the market for a transportation car at the moment and don't expect to be for a while.

[bertiewhang]

You're saying "masses" as if your masses are the same as my masses. ALL of my neighbors are good candidates for EVs with government incentives. The Leaf on craigslist can be financed for $149/mo - that's with zero gas. Point is your locale has to make it a priority - that's a political process that one can be apart of.

Not trying to pick a fight but your figures are basically half of what we would pay in the U.K.
The same goes for fuel and I'd guess your insurance premiums are lower to. Add in the fact that only places like London have any amount of charging stations and they are only really for the reasonably wealthy as a town runabout. The chances of a minimum wage person keeping o e on the road out of warranty are tiny. Once they are hitting 500 miles to a charge then we could be talking. Then the issue is the coal generated electricity.

[Jonathan]

Think of it has a big golf cart - you're in Florida, after all.

Sentence of the day. Nice one sir.

[jitahs]

The timing here is ironic - I'm in Albany, NY this morning and after breakfast I wandered across the street to the mall and there are a few Tesla parking spots with chargers. Unfortunately, they were all empty but that's beside the point. The mall wasn't really open yet either.

Are Tesla charging/parking spots universal? Or specific? Could a Mitsubishi EV owner use it? Or a Leaf driver? This should be a priority for the EV industry. A universal charging standard will benefit them all.

I would consider an EV for my next vehicle but I'm not in the market for a transportation car at the moment and don't expect to be for a while.

The answer to your questions is my homework assignment to david. You will see an 85d at those spots within a year.

[jitahs]

Not trying to pick a fight but your figures are basically half of what we would pay in the U.K.
The same goes for fuel and I'd guess your insurance premiums are lower to. Add in the fact that only places like London have any amount of charging stations and they are only really for the reasonably wealthy as a town runabout. The chances of a minimum wage person keeping o e on the road out of warranty are tiny. Once they are hitting 500 miles to a charge then we could be talking. Then the issue is the coal generated electricity.

I addressed this in other posts.

[caleb]

Test driving today.



I'm pretty much sold.

[Crashburn]

"Are Tesla charging/parking spots universal?"

They may not be universal but I saw one in Murdo, SD. which is about in the most middle of nowhere a person can get in the U.S.A.

[Badonkadonk]

"Are Tesla charging/parking spots universal?"

They may not be universal but I saw one in Murdo, SD. which is about in the most middle of nowhere a person can get in the U.S.A.

sure seems like they're gonna be

the amazing thing to me about that tesla platform is people are only now adapting it to an even better application: diesel short haul trucks. a guy i think on the peninsula is looking to start up an e-garbage truck company (jitahs, you heard about this?) and i would think with all that torque on demand and a big frame to make into a ginormous battery it'd be fabulous for hauling etc.

when the long haul truckers start getting the battery range to convert, i think we know it's the beginning of the end for the ICE

now, for now, i don't have one because for some reason there isn't one i really WANT yet, and as a dinosaur (38), i have too much emotional attachment to the rumble of a v8. but the day a next gen tesla roadster comes out, not sure that will hold up.

gigafactory will open up some interesting possibilities. if you want a glimpse of the blue sky on wall st., adam jonas at morgan stanley is also onto the battery / distributed power story

[AngryScientist]

all the intangible reasons to buy a car aside, i still think the most economical way to own a car is to buy a carefully selected, well used car, drive it for 80k miles and sell it to a college kid who needs cheap wheels. i'm a big BMW fan, and it's not unreasonable to buy a 3-series with 130k on the clock for under $10k, drive it to 210k and sell it for $5k. the car will return an easy combined 28mpg, so the total cost of ownership, even with some very real repair costs thrown in there, will always beat buying a $35k+ e-car.

[jitahs]

sure seems like they're gonna be

the amazing thing to me about that tesla platform is people are only now adapting it to an even better application: diesel short haul trucks. a guy i think on the peninsula is looking to start up an e-garbage truck company (jitahs, you heard about this?) and i would think with all that torque on demand and a big frame to make into a ginormous battery it'd be fabulous for hauling etc.

when the long haul truckers start getting the battery range to convert, i think we know it's the beginning of the end for the ICE

now, for now, i don't have one because for some reason there isn't one i really WANT yet, and as a dinosaur (38), i have too much emotional attachment to the rumble of a v8. but the day a next gen tesla roadster comes out, not sure that will hold up.

gigafactory will open up some interesting possibilities. if you want a glimpse of the blue sky on wall st., adam jonas at morgan stanley is also onto the battery / distributed power story

Someone who did some outside reading - whew!

That's the Wrightspeed guy 72gmc mentioned upthread, Tesla co-founder. The tech sounds awesome for that app.

I doubt the Roadster is coming back or even desirable. There's no way to get the weight down (there's that fat thing again) to proper sports car levels - batteries are batteries after all. My friend's doesn't corner well at all, but the entire point of the car, then the Model S, was to halo it (this is a term some of you should look up). Of course it can only come from a guy who builds Real rockets.

I'll look up Jonas; Elon is doing some astounding things like releasing Tesla patents and brainstorming with his cousin at Solar City to install sophisticated controllers on site for real-time monitoring. Makes the competition in panels look like they're playing a different game.

Incidentally the Gigafactory broke ground in Reno recently - the Tesla boys came in, prepped and laid the groundwork (N-S for GPS) in a few weeks on an enormous spread. The guys at the distribution center were blown away at the organization and speed. Bunch of smart guys gettin' shit done.

As for ICE sports cars, Alfa can only screw up the new ND so Mazda needs to license it to Porsche. They can add weight and horsepower, form a sub-brand and you got a little screamer for the badge snobs and some R&D money for MZDAD. Only no one will buy it.

As an aside I think v8s are great as I think little s*box engines are great too - listening to various mechanical noises, punctuated by near-silent e-vehicles, makes for a great urban soundtrack.

38 a dinosaur - hahahahaha!. I must be some kind of plankton then.

[Jonathan]

The ICE has maybe been the greatest driver of American post war culture. I don't think EVs and their associated technologies will have any less of an impact over the next 75 years. I just hope I'm around to see the boom that will come.

Thanks for the thread guys. Lots of interesting stuff here.

[lukasz]

"Probably"? Why don't you do some research, as I did for another post, which contains a partial answer.

P.S. Like you guys can afford (I can't) an 85d anyway.

I did the requisite 30 seconds of research to see what percentage of US energy comes from coal, and the figure of 39% is what my "probably" indicated. The FAQ is cute but it doesn't address what I am talking about, which is not only what powers the car but all of the other resources that go into making it. Of course based on environmental impact from driving the electric will win. Once we do the math on the various plastics/metals/leather interior bits/battery and recycling thereof there is no way that buying a Tesla is better than driving even the crappiest of gas guzzlers into the ground. And if I'm wrong, that would be wonderful.

If I were buying a new car I would definitely strongly consider a Tesla, but that probably has a bit to do with being an obstinate idiot that likes to make life hard for himself just for the sake of trying something.

[jitahs]

I did the requisite 30 seconds of research to see what percentage of US energy comes from coal, and the figure of 39% is what my "probably" indicated. The FAQ is cute but it doesn't address what I am talking about, which is not only what powers the car but all of the other resources that go into making it. Of course based on environmental impact from driving the electric will win. Once we do the math on the various plastics/metals/leather interior bits/battery and recycling thereof there is no way that buying a Tesla is better than driving even the crappiest of gas guzzlers into the ground. And if I'm wrong, that would be wonderful.

If I were buying a new car I would definitely strongly consider a Tesla, but that probably has a bit to do with being an obstinate idiot that likes to make life hard for himself just for the sake of trying something.

Well looked what popped up when I happened to check in today - thanks for actually looking something up (not sarcastic).

Please note, I wrote a lot of stuff but look at my response to Jason (who I was kind enough not to take to task for taking my words out of context. Ahem.) in which I talk about tail pipe emissions. This is the example I thought of subsequently while doing my customary deep thinking on the porcelain throne, for those who minimize the impact of these emissions:

Hypothetically, take a car, any ICE car, drive it into a garage, close the door. Type out a minute-by-minute thingy on vsalon about what's happening. When we don't hear from you after a bit we send in the paramedics. Hopefully it's not too late.

Contrast with my test drive of a LEAF, which I wrote about earlier: sales guy "starts" car (I say "start" because it does not resemble a car start in the least; more like booting up your phone). We are inside the showroom, "idling". We can sit there and chat until the battery is depleted with ZERO emissions, using it like an air-conditioned booth at the fanciest Vegas adult entertainment joint.

Now, someone please tell me this is not majorly significant.

Ok, something else: I was wondering why I hadn't heard any more about the proposed Amazon distribution center at our old shipyards, which would have been a major, major deal as it would have (maybe still will) served SF and the entire Bay Area with potential ONE. HOUR. DELIVERY. Of practically anything. Including food, which exists here already.

If it goes further I'm going to actively oppose it because it will be directly upwind of nearly the entire city of Oakland and ensure major rail and truck traffic, to be inhaled by our populace.

Why do I mention this long-winded story? The entire, "My car, my whatever is more green" is a fatuous argument in and of itself. In addition to manufacturing energies, the pull-back viewpoint, which is never discussed, is, "If we have to manufacture in order for the economy grow or remain in stasis and we minimize our footprint to the greatest extent possible, the simultaneous thing we should work on is getting Mother Earth to use it's natural filtration before it reaches us in a jet stream into our lungs.

Now I don't know where Jason lives but I do know his UJZ would probably not pass smog here in CA and that would be a good thing due to our huge population. Assuming he lives in a more de-populated area that wind, snow, rain, will have begun the filtration process much more quickly than here in the desert.

As your internet Financial Advisor, Shrink and Automotive Broker (aka Dad) I strongly advise you against buying a new car of any sort due to missed opportunity cost. It's dumb. If possible mitigate your footprint through the car swapping, renting, flying, ride your bike, consolidate trips, blah blah thing. Or buy a used Prius and wait for the price of used e-vehicles to come down...

Wait a minute - there are a lot of used Leafs on Carmax now for about $14k and they ship, so like I said IF it works for you, your budget, your range, whatever that is a pretty damn low entry point but I wouldn't do it as those have battery memory problems so I'd do as in Bertiewhang's representation and just get a used, cheap, petrol-burning econobox like a Mazda2. You could alway sell it later.

This just in, as I slagged on VCs and startups in another thread, is an amazing development as well: EV charging comes to S.F. apartment buildings - Fossils & Photons – Energy and Clean Tech

On thing I didn't mention was Total Cost of Ownership due to things getting derailed. Here is the major salient point:

One must not look at the cost of an e-vehicle the same as the cost of an ICE due to the fueling costs. Also one might think about leasing an e-vehicle when ordinarily one wouldn't an ICE. Why? If you drive a bit the cost of saved gasoline will go a long way to mitigate your lease payment. Ok, at the end of the term you don't own anything. True, but you have to look at what you pay into each system over x years to get an accurate picture; at the end of lease you haven't taken any depreciation hit over a new car, will have had the benefit of a new warranty and possibly no maintenance costs and no head aches unloading the vehicle. AND ZERO CO2 emissions over 3 years! And then the cycle will continue: you'll look at what's on the market then and make a new decision, pass down the car to the next buyer - win/win!

Alright, if you've read this far you are a fool. Go do something else.

[rmplum]

Killing the earth with this tonight. There were only six new 3-pedal versions in the US according to our broker's dealer search. #SaveTheManuals

[Brandon White]

Killing the earth with this tonight. There were only six new 3-pedal versions in the US according to our broker's dealer search. #SaveTheManuals

So educate me. This is a 235i w/ M-Sport Package? If so, I'm adding the damn M badge to my 328i Wagon w/ M-Sport Package and not feeling at all poseur-ish.

[rmplum]

So educate me. This is a 235i w/ M-Sport Package? If so, I'm adding the damn M badge to my 328i Wagon w/ M-Sport Package and not feeling at all poseur-ish.

More or less. It drives very similarly to the 135i with M-Sport package that we evaluated two years or so ago, that car had better steering and the dual clutch.

My basic takeaway after one night:
-Some road information would be nice, and while the steering response of this is better than average, there is NO road surface feedback
-The suspension is amazingly compliant over small cracks, patches, heaves even in Sport modes (take note, us).
-While plenty powerful, there is nothing really spine tingling about the N55. Fake noise, feels like it has quite a heavy flywheel, so there's a lot of rotational inertia after shifts. Carrera GT it's not. This car screams for a quick revving lump with a bit of shriek.
-Three pedals rule
-The BRZ by comparison makes other cars feel quite spacious inside. My 8yr old hates the back seat of the BRZ but is ok in this as long as the front passenger/driver is 5'9" or so. This car also has a lot more room in the front seat.
-Even the little BMW weighs 3500 honkin' lbs these days.
-$49k doesn't even get you a rear camera

Good guts and fun, but I think I'd be 90% as happy with a base 228i with the optional $0 manual, $15k fewer dollars and 200lbs less weight.

[Matthew Strongin]

More or less. It drives very similarly to the 135i with M-Sport package that we evaluated two years or so ago, that car had better steering and the dual clutch.

My basic takeaway after one night:
-Some road information would be nice, and while the steering response of this is better than average, there is NO road surface feedback
-The suspension is amazingly compliant over small cracks, patches, heaves even in Sport modes (take note, us).
-While plenty powerful, there is nothing really spine tingling about the N55. Fake noise, feels like it has quite a heavy flywheel, so there's a lot of rotational inertia after shifts. Carrera GT it's not. This car screams for a quick revving lump with a bit of shriek.
-Three pedals rule
-The BRZ by comparison makes other cars feel quite spacious inside. My 8yr old hates the back seat of the BRZ but is ok in this as long as the front passenger/driver is 5'9" or so. This car also has a lot more room in the front seat.
-Even the little BMW weighs 3500 honkin' lbs these days.
-$49k doesn't even get you a rear camera

Good guts and fun, but I think I'd be 90% as happy with a base 228i with the optional $0 manual, $15k fewer dollars and 200lbs less weight.

Great quick review. This compared to the BRZ...which would you buy? They may be really different vehicles, but to non-car people such as myself, I'm just looking for a 3 pedal, fun to drive car at a reasonable price.

[rmplum]

Great quick review. This compared to the BRZ...which would you buy? They may be really different vehicles, but to non-car people such as myself, I'm just looking for a 3 pedal, fun to drive car at a reasonable price.

Hard to say - how much "buzz" can you handle? - the BMW is significantly quieter and more refined than the BRZ. The BRZ is a lot smaller on the inside, a lot lighter, steers better and is obviously a lot cheaper. If this is your only car I think the BMW is probably the better choice - the BRZ is a bunch of fun and dynamically can hold it's own against much more expensive hardware, but it's really basic.

If you don't mind the looks of the old 1-Series you get better steering than the 2-series (IMO) - that's probably what I'd buy given those requirements (manual and rear-drive?). I'm looking forward to driving the new Miata/MX-5, but without a back seat it just wouldn't work for me, plus I'm not a convertible guy (and that's fine, the MX-5 is pretty good as is and cars can't be all things to all people).

[Saab2000]

Great quick review. This compared to the BRZ...which would you buy? They may be really different vehicles, but to non-car people such as myself, I'm just looking for a 3 pedal, fun to drive car at a reasonable price.

Best 3-pedal car for the cyclist and best bang for the buck is the Volkswagen GTI. IMHO. My 2006 is still going strong.