Martin / Zimmerman Trial Verdict

[Corso]

Oh brother!!!!! I hope in your next life you aren't reborn in this wonderful country of ours as a black male.

In this current life, I'm half mexican, already considered a minority according to the US government.

Some people just can't accept the FACTS in this PC world run amuck.

And he wasn't killed 'walking home", he was killed in a fight. Big difference, and the jury saw it that way too.

[corko]

And according to the courts & the factual evidence was attempting to beat Zimmerman to death

Fighting for his life.... is another interpretation.

[Dallas Tex]

Fighting for his life.... is another interpretation.

Well the eyewitness with the best, closest view doesn't agree with your interpretation. The injuries to Zimmerman do not support your interpretation. And the court findings and verdict do not support your interpretation. But I suppose you are welcome to interpret reality any way you'd like.

[RickM]

This guy ....(he wasn't a child. When I was 17 I had a full time job, supported myself, and was working my way through college) ....was thrown out of school, had drugs in his system, and found it entertaining to film homeless guys fighting.

And according to the courts & the factual evidence, was attempting to beat Zimmerman to death.

Now some feel this guy deserves to be honored. Tell me why this guy deserves to be honored more than our fallen soldiers or fallen law enforcement or fallen fire fighters?

The values in our nation become increasingly bizarre and the words HONOR and HERO are used so often incorrectly that they have become hopelessly diluted.

I get it. I do. As far as being tossed out of school w/ drugs in system and being a general dick, etc.... So are plenty of white boys around the leafy Greater Boston suburbs. My little town has a fair amount of 'em. I gotta tell ya'..if some dude was stalking me around town and confronted me/started to bust my balls...yeah, we'd mix it up, in all likelihood...at least when I was young and stupider. Now...I know that a gun might be produced, (and EVERYONE has a knife...even stupid Hipster types) and I'd take the time to think it all over and probably come up with the most palatable way to get the heck out of there.
Nobody..or at least me...has said that Martin was some sort of saint...but I do feel very strongly about when it's okay to shoot someone, and all of the circumstances around that shooting need to be looked at. My use of the word "honor" was not intended to equate to honoring/respecting dead firefighters, etc... I thought I spelled it out pretty clearly....what I was trying to get at.
Totally agree with you on the point about words like Honor and Hero having long since had the blood sucked out of them. We joke here about "Epic"....but your point is more serious.

[RickM]

In this current life, I'm half mexican, already considered a minority according to the US government.

Some people just can't accept the FACTS in this PC world run amuck.

And he wasn't killed 'walking home", he was killed in a fight. Big difference, and the jury saw it that way too.

Yes he was...a needlessly provoked fight where the initiator WAS INSTRUCTED BY LAW ENFORCEMENT to stand down. Discretion is the better part of Valor. Ask any professional soldier.

[Corso]

Yes he was...a needlessly provoked fight where the initiator WAS INSTRUCTED BY LAW ENFORCEMENT to stand down. Discretion is the better part of Valor. Ask any professional soldier.

Neither were soldiers. Both made mistakes. Yes, it's a tragic event. But it's not "Black & White (hispanic) as the media has painted it.

Z had in fact protested years earlier against the Police's treatment of another african american. I don't think he was the racist he was painted to be.

If T wrestled the gun away from G and killed G with it, would this even be news? Would the President claim T as "his son"? I doubt it.

[monadnocky]

Neither were soldiers. Both made mistakes. Yes, it's a tragic event. But it's not "Black & White (hispanic) as the media has painted it.

Z had in fact protested years earlier against the Police's treatment of another african american. I don't think he was the racist he was painted to be.

If T wrestled the gun away from G and killed G with it, would this even be news? Would the President claim T as "his son"? I doubt it.

and, more food for thought, what would the situation be now if the races were reversed? Perhaps unfair, but I cannot see the police initially not pressing charges.

[RickM]

Neither were soldiers. Both made mistakes. Yes, it's a tragic event. But it's not "Black & White (hispanic) as the media has painted it.

Z had in fact protested years earlier against the Police's treatment of another african american. I don't think he was the racist he was painted to be.

If T wrestled the gun away from G and killed G with it, would this even be news? Would the President claim T as "his son"? I doubt it.

1) Probably not..but that is what the mass media does. It's to be (sadly) expected. That is why being a Judge is supposed to be a serious, hard job. Neither were soldiers, but G. wasn't even a real cop. The real cops told him to lay off. I'll bet you a steak and some drinks that if real cops had confronted T., this would have all played out very differently. Not better, maybe, but the odds of someone getting shot would have gone down significantly.
2) Probably not. We'll never know. Like so many elements of this event. Obviously, the Prosecutors could not get beyond Reasonable Doubt.
3) Yes, it'd be news. My money would have gone on T being found Guilt in a big hurry and shuffled off to prison.

[corko]

Well the eyewitness with the best, closest view doesn't agree with your interpretation. The injuries to Zimmerman do not support your interpretation. And the court findings and verdict do not support your interpretation. But I suppose you are welcome to interpret reality any way you'd like.

Never said it was my interpretation.....

[gearguywb]

Gun Guy here;

1) Guns are farking dangerous objects. Trying to argue that they are not is, um, flawed.
2) Big cities have restrictive gun laws because they are big, old, cities with all the inherent problems of big, old, cities. Boston, where I live, has VERY restrictive gun laws and the violent crime rate is nowhere near Detroit, etc. But....Boston is not Detroit.
3)The media has a field day with ex-Disney stars that flash their panties and crash cars. You think they wouldn't go nuts with this? Too many inflammatory elements to ignore.
4)Due process may have run it's course....that doesn't exclude looking carefully at what happened, why, and maybe giving some thought around how to prevent it from happening again. Maybe that is how one honors Trayvon Martin.

At least get my name straight....

Sure guns are dangerous...when used incorrectly.
So is alcohol.
And cars.
And pesticides.
And...and....and....

Look, we are all sitting here playing armchair quarterback. Lots of different ways this could have played out. The media is having a field day with this incident at the same time letting go of the fact that there were 20 homicides in Chicago in the first week of July alone.

Bigger issues out there than this one incident.

[nahtnoj]

I have a question. Why does a gated community need a neighborhood watch? Does anyone know if where George Zimmerman lived had an actual guardhouse like every gated community I've ever been in? If there is a guard, and he lets you in, shouldn't your presence there be deemed legitimate on its face?

[HorsCat]

In this current life, I'm half mexican, already considered a minority according to the US government.

Some people just can't accept the FACTS in this PC world run amuck.

And he wasn't killed 'walking home", he was killed in a fight. Big difference, and the jury saw it that way too.

Wasn't being pc and though I haven't checked I'm sure you are factually correct as far as the statistics themselves go. But the statistics on their face ignore the why, which is what I was getting at. As a white male who grew up in a foreign country where racism was institutionalized, perhaps I'm more sensitive to the issue. Generally speaking, while black people in the US bear some level of responsibility for their situation (as do all of us for our situations, speaking both micro and macro) - and I'm not now going to try determine what that level is - I think it's fair to say that they have also been pissed and shit on by white people for a long long time. The post of yours to which I was responding didn't seem to take that into account. Of course, it was but one or two sentences and this is the Internet and all, so if I'm way off base here you have my apologies.

[Jonathan]

I have a question. Why does a gated community need a neighborhood watch? Does anyone know if where George Zimmerman lived had an actual guardhouse like every gated community I've ever been in? If there is a guard, and he lets you in, shouldn't your presence there be deemed legitimate on its face?

There was no guard. It's an automated gate. Where Zimmerman lived was a newer community that because of the housing crisis has had a fair foreclosures and renters. It was near a not very good part of town.

[RickM]

At least get my name straight....

No..I meant I am a gun owner/shooter. Had nothing to do with your handle. The Interweb...not the medium of Clarity by a long shot!

[e-RICHIE]

No..I meant I am a gun owner/shooter.

Hey - is it for sport (shooting) or protection atmo?
Curious.

[lukasz]

Neither were soldiers. Both made mistakes. Yes, it's a tragic event. But it's not "Black & White (hispanic) as the media has painted it.

Z had in fact protested years earlier against the Police's treatment of another african american. I don't think he was the racist he was painted to be.

If T wrestled the gun away from G and killed G with it, would this even be news? Would the President claim T as "his son"? I doubt it.

The "what ifs" make no sense. It is what it is. Kid got shot because dumb laws allowed for a guy without proper training to play policeman. We can "what if" well into the night based on what we want the outcome to be. No, I don't think Obama would call a killer his son.

[Peter B]

And according to the courts & the factual evidence was attempting to beat Zimmerman to death.

Its not illegal to follow someone and call the cops on that you find suspicious. Its not illegal to get out of your car to observe and 'watch', as in Neighborhood Watch.

These things may be rude or wrongly motivated BUT THEY ARE NOT ILLEGAL.



When TM decided to beat the living shit out of Zimmerman, that is illegal. Everybody has the right to defend themselves against bodily harm & death.

As a neighborhood watch volunteer Z was suspicious and called in to 911. They advised him to stay put in his vehicle. He chose to disregard that direction and pursue TM. An altercation somehow ensued and the outcome was one man dead and another's life irrevocably altered.

Was TM a criminal/bad actor? Was Z a vigilante? Who knows for certain, but let's grant the plausibility of some degree of yes on both counts.

There are plenty of criminals/bad actors/vigilantes moving about in society.

I question whether TM would have 'beaten the living shit' out of Z if he'd remained in his car as directed by the 911 and left the further pursuit/investigation to LE.

I guess I see Z's decision to disregard 911 direction & pursue TM anyway as a crucial personal choice in this particular situation. While that does not justify whatever came next, it would appear to have, by Z's conscious choice, helped precipitate the possibility.

I personally choose not to pursue activities that may incite or provoke others to 'beat the living shit' out of me, be those activities legal or not, particularly when 911/LE has explicitly advised against it.

I say do not knowingly move yourself into potentially dangerous situations unless you fully understand and are prepared to deal with the consequences and possible outcomes.

But I don't live in that neighborhood so WTF do I know?

[caleb]

In Fist, Stick, Knife, Gun, Geoff Canada argues that available weapons play a significant psychological role in the escalation of conflicts. Specifically, he makes the case that there's a direct and positive correlation between the possession of a deadly weapon like a knife or gun and the escalation of conflict.

Perhaps now, in the aftermath of this trial, we're in a mental space to think about how many people we want on the street with a psychological predisposition to escalate rather than deescalate conflicts.

If Zimmerman isn't packing heat, does he get out of his car?

If Zimmerman doesn't think the law is on his side, does he engage Martin?

We don't know for sure, but Canada's argument would indicate that that the whole situation is less likely absent the weapon and the law.

Personally (and as a gun owner and hunter), I take that as a serious indictment about our willingness as a public to authorize the contributing factors. Why in the world should we have a bunch of minimally trained yaahoos wandering the streets with pistols absent a good reason? And why in the world should we legally sanction a "shoot first, ask questions later" doctrine? Why are we facilitating and sanctioning this machismo nonsense? This isn't the wild west.

Max Weber teaches us that a modern state is defined by the monopoly of the legitimate use of violence. The privatization of that legitimate violence that we're currently undergoing seems to me to be a step away from modernity - a regression. Do we really want to live in a society of private vendettas and blood feuds rather than law and order? Personally, I think modernity and the state were good ideas that are worth preserving.

None of this says anything about whether the jury was right or wrong. But if they were indeed right, I think it's a sign that our legal system and our society are in a seriously bad spot.

[Corso]

» Oakland Hit By Riots After Zimmerman Verdict Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!

This does not help.

You can't blame Z for this behavior. Although by the postings here, some of you will.

[nahtnoj]

» Oakland Hit By Riots After Zimmerman Verdict Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!

This does not help.

You can't blame Z for this behavior. Although by the postings here, some of you will.

The vast majority of protests are peaceful. Of course you pick out the one that isn't. Are you totally ignorant of the tensions in Oakland? Remember Occupy? Oakland is a tinderbox. Of course there is rioting in Oakland.