should a custom frame/forks come with a headset ? your views ?

[Matthew J]

We include a King headset. Part of the deal. We install them properly, they are the best. If someone really wants something else and the one they want is of an acceptable quality, we'll include it and install it for them. But our framesets always leave here with a headset installed. Period.

Very much appreciated that you caught the quality problem with the NOS Campy SR I sent you and convinced me to go with the Cane Creek.

[NBC]

tom,
if you supply king headsets with your frames, does that dictate the headtube you use ?
i.e. would you not use a hidden headset and headtube combo ? but then might use 44mm ID headtube instead ?

thanks

nathan

[Eric Estlund]

Nathan- I think there is some cart/ horse stuff going on. Design the best "bike" you can. Don't let the headset, head tube, favorite seat post get in the way- use them as tools. King, Cane Creek, etc make so many quality options you can assure "best quality" with any combination that serves the clients needs.

[NBC]

eric,

what i'm really asking is if following every new market trend is asking for trouble ?
or should we stay in the realms of 1" or 1 1/8" press fit headsets ?

thanks

nathan

[Eric Estlund]

Be the builder you want to be, and make product you belive in.

[e-RICHIE]

Nathan - Do you make your own forks? How many NBC frames are in the public domain?

[NBC]

richard,

i do make my own forks, yes

there are a couple of frames out there at the mo,

i'm really looking for views on this to really find what's accepted practice, for my future ventures really

thanks

nathan

[Andrew R Stewart]

Nathan- The more you control the less can go wrong when your frames are delivered and set up. Many of us have seen (and in my case done once) head set installs that have gone very wrong. So many will suggest that you establish a certain standard as to how you'll deliver a frame/fork that will minimize problems, enhance your bottom line and make you look good. Andy.

[Amaro Bikes]

following every new market trend is asking for trouble ?
or should we stay in the realms of 1" or 1 1/8" press fit headsets

I think it's better to consider the new market products more like options where to choose from rather than trends to follow. It's good to have options where to choose as it gives you more choices and alternatives depending what you're up to, but you don't have to follow any of those new designs if they're not what you're looking for. The same way you don't have to use smartphones or have an hybrid car. You build your bikes, your own bikes, with your own perspective. From there, just look for the components better suiting your concept/designs.

i'm really looking for views on this to really find what's accepted practice

I think any practice can be accepted as far as it's a well executed one. IT will never be a question of what headset or bb standard you're using, but much more about if your build is somehow coherent (with yourself the most)

[e-RICHIE]

richard,

i do make my own forks, yes

there are a couple of frames out there at the mo,

i'm really looking for views on this to really find what's accepted practice, for my future ventures really

thanks

nathan

Forgetting about the trends or supplies for a moment -
Which dimension do you think is better, better for your brand, and why?
That's three questions there atmo.

[NBC]

richard,

that's really a question of many different answers,

1, i don't think any one steerer tube / head tube size is really any better than another, however i'd probably pick 1 1/8"

2, 1 1/8" (EC34) feels right to me

3, i think that 1 1/8" is what i've grown up around, and i see it now as the go to size as far as component manufacturers are concerned,
i think that using this standard helps with compatibility with modern components, and i like personally to avoid using shims/adaptors where possible.

just my take on things, i'm not in any way saying that some standards are inferior, and others superior.
i think the answer to the size question lies entirely in the individuals vision.

i know my answers are partly dictated by the way the market is, and i don't think you can really isolate yourself from that.

nathan

[Tom Kellogg]

tom,
if you supply king headsets with your frames, does that dictate the headtube you use ?
i.e. would you not use a hidden headset and headtube combo ? but then might use 44mm ID headtube instead ?

thanks

nathan

Nathan:

Somewhere around 98% of our frames are designed for 1.125" forks. All of our steel frames and forks are 1.125" and only rarely do we build a Ti frame for a tapered fork. So Press in King headsets make all sorts of sense for us except for those rare cases when we will use a 44mm head tube for a tapered fork. Helps? Again, headsets are factored into the price of our frame sets just like the paint job or tubing is. We've always done it that way.

[steve garro]

for my future ventures really

thanks

nathan

So it's just hypothetical then?
- Garro.

[e-RICHIE]

richard,

that's really a question of many different answers,

1, i don't think any one steerer tube / head tube size is really any better than another, however i'd probably pick 1 1/8"

2, 1 1/8" (EC34) feels right to me

3, i think that 1 1/8" is what i've grown up around, and i see it now as the go to size as far as component manufacturers are concerned,
i think that using this standard helps with compatibility with modern components, and i like personally to avoid using shims/adaptors where possible.

just my take on things, i'm not in any way saying that some standards are inferior, and others superior.
i think the answer to the size question lies entirely in the individuals vision.

i know my answers are partly dictated by the way the market is, and i don't think you can really isolate yourself from that.

nathan

I dunno what you make, or where you expect a market, but if you are using a 1 1/8" as a standard you're gonna have a tough row to hoe. This, of course, based on your saying that you make your own forks. PS This comment relates to road and CX, and not MTB stuff.

[NBC]

steve,

it is and it's not hypothetical, i've got a couple of frames in the pipeline that will need to have headsets, it's just the case of who supplies and fits said headset

richard, it's all going to be audax / tour / winter bikes for me, that's where my interest lies, and i feel i've found a set of lugs i quite like for 1 1/8", and also there are enough fork crowns too, OS tubing not UOS too, and i think fillet brazing / tig still can make a very nice useable frame,
just my view, i think for smaller riders, standard tubing and 1" is still very good, i'm not saying i'll never make 1" because i will, but like i said previously, i don't really like to use adaptors / shims, but if the customer wants to, it is their bike not mine

nathan

[e-RICHIE]

richard, it's all going to be audax / tour / winter bikes for me, that's where my interest lies, and i feel i've found a set of lugs i quite like for 1 1/8", and also there are enough fork crowns too, OS tubing not UOS too, and i think fillet brazing / tig still can make a very nice useable frame,
just my view, i think for smaller riders, standard tubing and 1" is still very good, i'm not saying i'll never make 1" because i will, but like i said previously, i don't really like to use adaptors / shims, but if the customer wants to, it is their bike not mine

nathan

Okay - great, good luck. I am not sure what an adapter is. But I have used shims under the stems since the late 1990s and they work swell atmo. Regardless of the rider size, I think 1" for a fork column - on a steel fork made by a human being - is a very rational (weight, strength, parts availability, market interest) dimension. I am committed to it for my own OS frames. The extra 1/8" won't give you anything that the 1" dim doesn't have. But if your concerns are allayed by having it, that works too. PS The audax / tour / winter bicycles don't have any additional demands on them than a normal racing bicycle has.

[Curt Goodrich]

This thread along with the branding thread make my head hurt. Nathan, I mean no disrespect but you've made 2 frames with 2 in the queue and you're looking to set some sort of policy as to what you will or won't build? Don't worry about these sorts of things. Build frames. In 100-300 frames then perhaps you can get your hands and head around some sort of policy due to your own hard earned experiences. Until then there's a lot of work to do. Plus remember these sort of things are fluid. What you do today might not resemble what you do in 5 years. The same goes to the branding thread. I know corporate America does it but in our little world the notion of branding before there's a product seems at best the cart before the horse. Perhaps I'm a little slow on the uptake but I built around 1000 frames before I ever built one with my name on it. Even that was only a starting point as to what I wanted in my bikes. How anyone conceives of what their product is before actually having been at the bench for some time just doesn't ring true with my experience.

[NBC]

richard,

i'm aware that the bikes i like don't have any additional demands on them, i just prefer to use parts that are designed to work together without need for shims, if 1" threadless stems were still made available on the market, i'm sure my answers would be considerably different

i'm probably worrying over something that really is trivial, hence my aversion to 1", but i've had stem shims in the past that never really fitted properly, that's why i've tried to stay away, maybe the answer instead is to have my own made, or find a suitable fitting one ?

i didn't intend for the original question to turn into the 1" vs 1 1/8" argument all over again, and i do apologise for this, i don't really wish to cause debates, but just to really get more of an idea of this business.

thanks to all that have given their views, it has been very helpful.

nathan

[prolix21]

as a recovering over-thinker of all newbie frame building things, just build what you think is right for the customer. there are very few things that are black and white in regards to frame building. see all previous posts on vs as proof.

also, do what Curt and e-RICHIE say.

[Dave Anderson]

.........i'm probably worrying over something that really is trivial, hence my aversion to 1", but i've had stem shims in the past that never really fitted properly, that's why i've tried to stay away, maybe the answer instead is to have my own made, or find a suitable fitting one ?

Personally, I would answer this with "yes" and "yes". Using a stem shim with a 1" steerer is a non issue. I use them ALL of the time. Use a Thompson or a Problem Solvers and you shouldn't have any problem.

Another thing that many people do not consider, when thinking about this, is that often the OD of your typical 1" headset spacer more closely matches the OD of a shimmed 1 1/8" stem clamp than the OD of a 1 1/8" headset spacer does, and so the 1" set up can actually look better. For example, the OD of a 1" aluminum or carbon headset spacer matches the OD of a Ritchey WCS 4-Axis stem clamp and so the transition is seamless, whereas, your typical 1 1/8" spacer will stick out past the edge of the stem.....& so its not as clean. (Note: I know that there are some tapered spacers now and custom parts can be made, but your still adapting from one measurement or part to another, etc.)

I am not debating one spec or another here. I don't limit myself to 1" or 1 1/8" or etc. I build whatever I think will work best for the application. I just don't think that using a 1" steerer on a steel bike should be considered a limitation.

Dave