Someone Else's Musings On My Trade atmo -

[Corso]

The show will do ok until this guy shows up. Then it's time to call it a day.

bikerman - YouTube

[d_douglas]

After walking around the show most of the weekend I would have to agree with the article. As a blatant example I recall seeing a wooden bicycle with a custom big chainring that had to be 75 or more teeth and a normal 39 small ring. Front der. cable taped to the seat stick (wood) with no front der. and a standard rear der. I don't care how pretty it is. It couldn't function even if you made a custom front derailleur. There were a lot of really nice functional bikes (not taking ride quality into account), but some of this stuff needs to be edited out of the show for sure.

Yes, there were too many wooden bikes. I know that from an engineering standpoint, it is possible and Calfee has stood behind this for a decade or more, but come on, wooden bikes?

I am one of those people who attended, had show bike, packed it up and took it home. It will be ridden a lot. In fact, I will probably sell my MTB now that I have this CX bike.

I think the article was quite astute.

[andys]

Late to thread as usual but I couldn't disagree with the article more despite the author's credentials. Yes some builders are expressing themselves in occasionally unfortunate ways (weird shaped top tubes or god forbid the dreaded double top tube) or in over the top artistic manner not unlike concept cars of the 1960's (wood bikes, funny bikes, chrome, metal flake), but there has been less and less of the carved lug, art investment type of bikes in the recent shows. Is he saying that these bikes are not to be ridden or are failed attempts at bringing something of value to the market? He must have seen these while at the show: Calleti baller bike, Soulcraft, Hampsten, Sycip, Inglis, Gaulzetti, RS, Della Santa (last year), Strong, Crumpton, Alliance, Level, Zullo (I brought mine home last year, rides amazingly), Merlin, Breadwinner, Ellis, Cielo, Dean, Kish!! (what sweet no nonsense bikes and people)? In an earler thread someone was complaining about a complete Breadwinner costing $4K. What??!! A piece of shit 105 bike from china price points at close to $2K now. $4K for a well appointed custom geometry bike built by Ira Ryan and Tony P is a fine deal, give me a break. I have less than$3.5K in my custom for me Zullo, Columbus Spirit and Campy Athena. These are real bikes, meant to be ridden, and more often than not at reasonable prices.

Where was Kirk by the way?

[Eric Estlund]

My biggest sticking point about the original article is that it was criticism of the show posted on Feb 18th.

Yup- 4 days before the actual show.

To quote from the piece: "But for the rest of us, somebody please give us some steak instead of endless sizzle". This article was criticizing last years sizzle before ordering from this years restaurant.

I feel like the "show" bikes get a lot of coverage, but I also feel like people are choosing to see them as a bigger part of the show then they are so that they can more easily point a finger at what they don't like. All that is well and good, but I can't understand why these same fingers are not being pointed at the sea of quality rides there. I have my own bones with shows, but a lack of market relevant bikes isn't one of them.

The author wrote: "It’s striking to me that as carbon fiber and electronic shifting are sending bike prices skyrocketing, custom builders aren’t using this as a moment to show their relevance. Surely a great bike from a custom builder and outfitted with top-shelf parts can deliver a great ride at a competitive weight and a price that can beat out lots of mold-made carbon bikes these days. It would be great to see these bikes treated as such."

I can only speak to my own work, but this is exactly what I brought: bikes that I have a market for that the big guys won't touch, and bikes that I believe compete with the big three while offering something they can't. To quote a client who's bike I delivered at the show: "It's lighter then my ti bike and stiffer then my carbon- it's perfect and just what I wanted".

[Mark Kelly]

some builders are expressing themselves .... in over the top artistic manner not unlike concept cars of the 1960's (wood bikes, (etc)

I object to being tarred with this particular brush.

Wood is an excellent material from which to make bicyles, it's just very, very hard to do it well. For me, that's a challenge I'm happy to accept.

The wood is there for sound structural and acoustic reasons, besides my wife will tell you I have the aesthetic sensibility of a housebrick.

[liberacefanboy]

Yes some builders are expressing themselves in occasionally unfortunate ways (weird shaped top tubes or god forbid the dreaded double top tube) or in over the top artistic manner not unlike concept cars of the 1960's (wood bikes, funny bikes, chrome, metal flake), but there has been less and less of the carved lug, art investment type of bikes in the recent shows.

Seeing that I had a "dreaded double top tube " bike with a lot of metal flake there, I really felt compelled to kinda respond to this.
While this may not be the best place to address this, I just have to.
What is it with the attitude that if it is not hand carved lugs, it is an "over the top, un- ride able fluff" type of bike? What makes hand carved lugs the standard of what some people consider"custom"?Is there not more than that??
I have done this for 20 years, made many lugged bikes at CROLL CYCLES, and now I serve the people who love to ride, but no one makes the bike they want. They want flake, originality , flames, fat bikes, something unique, more than what I can do with lugs realistically .Some times, lugs restrict how you can build a bike, and who you can build it for. SOMETIMES.
When i see a hand carved lug bike, that I know the builder has 30 plus hours into it, or some crazy polished lugs, that have over 40 hours into the bb shell alone, why is this not considered fluff?? How is that anywhere near being profitable? How do you even charge for that ??
The people who I build for love what I do, and would never consider it to be unfortunate.
Why is it that this seems to be an underlying attitude in certain circles?
I make bikes. You may not like them . I make bikes for the people who order them from me. I worked on production lugged bikes , and the occasional customs ones that were ordered. I love making them all, but now I am free to do what I want to do, and do it for those who want it. They are out there, and they love it.

I really dont think that there has been less of the carving custom stuff there, its just more subtle and flowing, not so drastic, thats just my observation.

[Honus]

I really enjoyed the show and the wide variety of bikes presented. A lot of the bikes weren't for me- and that's OK. That's the whole point of custom. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Even if I don't necessarily like a bike I can still appreciate a particular level of craftsmanship. I congratulate any builder that can make a living building a product for an audience of one- that's not easy to do. As long as a builder is meeting their customer's needs with a well crafted bike and is making a decent wage doing it then it really doesn't matter to me if they build a bike out of wood or if it has twin top tubes, lots of chrome or metal flake paint. Variety is the spice of life. Talk to a builder whose bikes you like and have them make one for you- simple.

[Too Tall]

Noren anyone who uses double top tubes or metal flake to make a point that their public (ahem) LOUDER PLEASE...THEIR public is not served missed the entire point of what you or someone with your creative genius offers. Something for everyone, it's Vegas baby.
Back on point yo.
How to evolve this business of branding, promotion and increasing sales? It's not straight forward or a one size result...shocking eh?

Seeing that I had a "dreaded double top tube " bike with a lot of metal flake there, I really felt compelled to kinda respond to this.
While this may not be the best place to address this, I just have to.
What is it with the attitude that if it is not hand carved lugs, it is an "over the top, un- ride able fluff" type of bike? What makes hand carved lugs the standard of what some people consider"custom"?Is there not more than that??
I have done this for 20 years, made many lugged bikes at CROLL CYCLES, and now I serve the people who love to ride, but no one makes the bike they want. They want flake, originality , flames, fat bikes, something unique, more than what I can do with lugs realistically .Some times, lugs restrict how you can build a bike, and who you can build it for. SOMETIMES.
When i see a hand carved lug bike, that I know the builder has 30 plus hours into it, or some crazy polished lugs, that have over 40 hours into the bb shell alone, why is this not considered fluff?? How is that anywhere near being profitable? How do you even charge for that ??
The people who I build for love what I do, and would never consider it to be unfortunate.
Why is it that this seems to be an underlying attitude in certain circles?
I make bikes. You may not like them . I make bikes for the people who order them from me. I worked on production lugged bikes , and the occasional customs ones that were ordered. I love making them all, but now I am free to do what I want to do, and do it for those who want it. They are out there, and they love it.

I really dont think that there has been less of the carving custom stuff there, its just more subtle and flowing, not so drastic, thats just my observation.

[Eric Estlund]

Noren and I build reasonably different objects, but I think we dig that the other guy goes after what he likes and has found a market for it. Plus we're both Eric/k's, so there's that.

[Dorman]

Before I get quoted anymore I just want to clarify that I love all the functional bikes at the show regardless of material. And I like sparkly paint. Everybody has to follow their own muse. I was really originally commenting on bikes at the show that really could not ever realistically be operated in the intended matter. The one I was talking about just happened to be a wooden bike. Nick Frey from Boo is doing a beautiful job and I have a friend that is getting a tandem from him. Not my style, but hey it's not about me. Bring what you want, but if it can't be ridden it is wall art and shouldn't be there.

[andys]

First of all an apology for anyone that I may have offended. I love the variety, the color, the enthusiasm that all the bikes bring, even the ones that I don't understand very well. I was very pleased with the show this year. As much as I personally don't quite understand the premise behind some of the bikes the show would be a lot less interesting without them there. I also felt that the author of the article had taken the point of view I just expressed and was denouncing the whole show as a result. I simply wanted to point out that there were plenty of "normal" bikes there that offer better alternatives to stock bikes. FWIW my bike is painted white w/ cherries so is a bit showy too. Now I wish they had used metal flake too.

[liberacefanboy]

ahhh I was not really offended, I just see this type of attitude and I want to understand where it permeates from.
In all the car , motorcycle, art, and crazy fab shows I have been to the skill and imagination of the fabricator was the emphasis . Unless its a " stock restoration" then you can't have any fun. Seeing young and old fab guys talk about metal work is just too cool. Tuners are just modern day hot rodders. The muscle car guys and the tuners, they just want be loud and go fast. that, I can respect.

I get that some people don't like what I do. I don't like what some people do! But, that's what they do. And if they are making dough, happy customers, safe bikes, then we all win. More people on more bikes is a better world.
FAB ON I SAY!!
later taters.
noren

[steve garro]

As a fan and builder who shares many of the same frustrations as the author, I appreciate the article's critical eye at the undertones of an industry that drives many builders to create pieces that stand out during show time in an effort to garner the attention of the patron walking by.

I personally love the old race addage...race what ya brung.

I believe Nahbs exhibitors should aggressively grab hold of the opportunity to display wares that are representative of what comes out of their shop on a daily basis. The effort you see on my booth floor is the same that you can expect from me when your bike is the one I focus on.

I can wear a pink tutu to catch attention, but in the end it's not who I am every day and my ass is just still as big.

Just sayin...

rody

"Run what you Brung"
"Does this wheelchair make my ass look fat?"

I just don't have anything to "Show"
Coconino is only one thing: Me.
If I go again, it's just going to be Me.

One thing and one thing only: I hate the "I want the sizzle with my steak"
Screw that, really. Who goes back it the kitchen to watch the cooking?
The sizzle from my steaks comes out on the trail, not in the kitchen.
The bike is the bike.
No more, no less.
I hope everyone loves their bike, and that's all I got.
- Garro.

[Too Tall]

This such a good topic I'd like to offer a viewpoint. For instance, from the tender age of 8 until my last yr. in college I threw pottery...alot of pottery. In fact it was a real dilemma, for about 20 mins. once my dad caught wind, if I'd pursue graduate studies in ceramics or something mainstream. All that to say, I was "there" I had a piece of the dream...I paid alot of hard dues by throwing pots nobody would ever see and I paid for some of my expenses making functional wares after hrs. in the college studios for local CoOps.

"Us" potters took some offense when family members would ask for functional wares after all we were ARTISTS yo and if we happened to make a farkin' plate it was because we wanted to not because someone needed it. Man we had some nerve, never had to make a living off the craft so we got to feel exulted and above it all. G-d forbid we had to make a living off this but man we all dreamed that there were patrons who would buy our non-functional "art"...well wake up sister that's not how it all rolled. Ultimately, we made art and function and it behooves us to make your mark in this world and define your brand through example and words. Without identity you are nothing, you are just another hack. Sorry if this offends, but you are.

Ladies and Gents who make handbuilt bicycles are by and large no different and when they exhibit at NAHBS, for instance, if you value your skin you bring your best $h!t and represent yourself to potential customers as fully committed to the art and function shown.

Soooo when I hear people say that the exhibitors fail to bring functional bicycles and they exhibit overly complicated "show pieces" best for hanging on the wall it makes me giggle.

next

[e-RICHIE]

next

The ideal would be a booth devoid of everything except the maker. It would be up to his communication skills
to deliver the product using words. No paint. No print material. No signage. No carpeted floor at $200 extra.
Nothing. If you can't explain it you shouldn't be there atmo.

[mgdanna]

The money saved on avoiding unions is more than spent (in spades...) elsewhere trying to
negotiate a way to get yourself and your booth collection to these non-union towns atmo.

This union man has several hand built steel beauties and has attended several NAHBS shows. No builder ever asked if I was paying with nasty union money.

[mgdanna]

I would love to see the show come to NYC. I understand it's an extreme long shot for many reasons. Just saying.

[e-RICHIE]

This union man has several hand built steel beauties and has attended several NAHBS shows. No builder ever asked if I was paying with nasty union money.

It offends me that halls were avoided all these years in order to circumvent paying union workers atmo.
And,the money they didn't get probably was spent 3-4 times over on traveling and shipping to the venues
that were chosen. Bad form.

Hey - the thread is now a Wiki on V Place? Whoa.

[rabo]

The ideal would be a booth devoid of everything except the maker. It would be up to his communication skills
to deliver the product using words. No paint. No print material. No signage. No carpeted floor at $200 extra.
Nothing. If you can't explain it you shouldn't be there atmo.

I've never been to a NAHBS but I've met many people who are great with words but not in materializing them.
Personally between the two extremes I would rather see the product without the builder.
Would like to see Nagasawa on a booth without anything except a video camera though.

[ChimpMensa]

It offends me that halls were avoided all these years in order to circumvent paying union workers atmo.
And,the money they didn't get probably was spent 3-4 times over on traveling and shipping to the venues
that were chosen. Bad form.

If circumventing the union overhead resulted in lowered costs in facilitating the show, and those reduced costs didn't make it less expensive overall for the exhibitors to participate, then this cash was captured as a management fee. It didn't just disappear - follow the money.

No one expects the person conceiving and undertaking the risk in getting this show to actually happen to work for nothing. What other solution might there be other than to cut the unions their vig and increase the fee to exhibitors and/or reduce the management fee?

I am all for a living wage but in the modern world a monopoly on moving crates and running cable inside a facility does not entitle any organization to an exhorbitant return simply because they said so and there ain't nothing you can do about it.