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Thread: Frame builder boom

  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by suspectdevice View Post
    Yes, I don't want to drive Specialized, Trek and Giant out of business, as much as I want to at least make them scared enough to have some serious thoughts about the way they design, manufacture and market products and most importantly make consumers re-think they way the look at the "true price" of a product.

    Maybe you, as one dude in Chester can't fill the void, but others can. A frame builder can't. A Manufacturer can. There are a few angry young people in this country, that work in the bike industry, and share a similar vision. And it is thus;

    Any former manufacturing town in the Northeastern US could be producing 20,000+ bicycles anually. Within a 10 minute bike ride from my shop (former Stanley Tools factory) are more than one million square feet of vacant industrial buildings. Buildings that make their own hydro-electric power, and are still plumbed for steam. Buildings with 10foot thick walls and Tiffany fixtures for management offices. Those buildings sit dark, while the scrap metal yard causes traffic jams as printing presses, textile equipment and tool-room quality mills and lathes get turned in for their scrap value.

    There are skilled pattern makers and machinists sitting around all day in American Legion halls drinking malt liquor and playing Keno.
    Those people, and their children and grand children would rather be working, and physically producing. But there are no jobs for people with their skillsets.... Besides making bombs.

    Our economy in this country is propped up by Intellectual Property, not hard goods. Our IP laws are in direct opposition to the rest of the world community. As our global corporate political hegemony fades, patent medicine and medicore pop music and movies will no longer keep people employed and producing $$ the way they are now.

    The hinterlands of this vast continent are already turning into a cultural dust bowl, boxed in by Chinese goods and controlled by petroleum prices. Even your cheery whitebread exurbs have turned into dumb, unfeeling ticky-tac clone of some madison avenue/pentagon wet dream.

    I am too young to die, too old to be hopeful, and too weak to move the world on my own.

    Don't just sit back and let it all fizzle away because pinned and lugged construction has become obsolete.

    You can not tell me you are not offended when Specialized sells bikes for $7,000 that are made in China? Where does that price come from?

    How do they justify their price structure? Why are bikes that are no better to ride, and offensive to look at more expensive than things that are built either Artisanlly or with the concept of efficient production and economy of design in mind?

    Is that a good thing for the industry, of the consumers? Does it really help bike shops? Does it help racers? Does it help you, or me?

    I know I have my opinion on it....

    And with Jerk as my witness, I don't intend to become an apologist for what I see as a broken system. Even well oiled machines, if driven toward a cliff, will fall off.
    Beautiful! Scream it from the rooftops, Mickey! I hope you wake at least one of these phacking surrender monkeys up.

    SOPWAMTOS!
    "It's better to not know so much than to know so many things that ain't so." -- Josh Billings, 1885

    A man with any character at all must have enemies and places he is not welcome—in the end we are not only defined by our friends, but also those aligned against us.


  2. #142
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    Perhaps way OT, but there are elements of this discussion and of the one across the way about the value of an early Vanilla that remind me of the following letter, and every time I am reminded of it and reread it, my heart cracks a bit.

    Dear Mother,
    Once again I want to write you a letter while you are still in the old house, to thank you for your last letter and the news of Cor's good voyage. I believe he will work there with zest, and thus have some pleasure in his life. What he writes you makes me think of what my friend Gauguin told me about Panama and Brazil. I did not know until now that Isaäcson is also going to the Transvaal. You know I never met him personally – but lately I have written him because he intended to write about my work in a Dutch paper, and I asked him not to do it; but also to thank him for his faithful sympathy, as from the beginning we have often thought of each other's work and have the same ideas about our old Dutch and modern French painters. And I also like De Haan's work very much.
    Now I can tell you that what I promised you is quite ready – the landscape studies and a small self-portrait and a study of an interior. But I fear it will disappoint you and the whole batch may seem unimportant and ugly to you. Wil and you can do what you like with them, and if you feel like giving something to the other sisters – for this reason I am sending a few more.
    But this does not concern me – I only try to form several things into a kind of whole which I would prefer remained together, so that it becomes more important in the course of time. But I already understand that you will not have room for everything, and therefore you may do what you like with them, but I advise you to keep them together, at least for some time, as in that case you will be better able to judge which ones you like best in the long run. I certainly agree with you that it is much better for Theo now than before, and I hope everything will go well with Jo's confinement; that will set them up for quite a while. It is always good to experience the way in which a human being comes into the world, and that leads many a character to more quietness and truth. Nature is very beautiful here in autumn with the yellow leaves. I am only sorry that there aren't more vineyards here. I started to paint one a few hours away though. It happens that a big field becomes quite purple and red, as the Virginia creeper with us, and next to that a yellow square, and a little farther on a spot which is still green. All this under a sky of a beautiful blue, and violet rocks in the distance. Last year I had a better opportunity to paint that than now. I should have liked to add something like it to what I am sending you, but I'll owe you this for next year.
    You will see from the self-portrait I add that though I saw Paris and other big cities for many years, I keep looking more or less like a peasant of Zundert, Toon, for instance, or Piet Prins, and sometimes I imagine I also feel and think like them, only the peasants are of more use in the world. Only when they have all the other things, they get a feeling, a desire for pictures, books, etc. In my estimation I consider myself certainly below the peasants.
    Well, I am ploughing on my canvases as they do on their fields.
    It goes badly enough in our profession – in fact that has always been so, but at the moment it is very bad. And yet never have such high prices been paid for pictures as these days.
    What makes us work on is friendship for each other, and love of nature, and finally, if one has taken all the pains to master the brush, one cannot leave painting alone. Compared with others, I still belong to the lucky ones, but think what it must be if one has entered the profession and has to leave it before one has done anything, and there are many like that. Given ten years as necessary to learn the profession and somebody who has struggled through six years and paid for them and then has to stop, just think how miserable that is, and how many there are like that!
    And those high prices one hears about, paid for work of painters who are dead and who were never paid so much while they were alive, it is a kind of tulip trade, under which the living painters suffer rather than gain any benefit. And it will also disappear like the tulip trade.
    But one may reason that, though the tulip trade has long been gone and is forgotten, the flower growers have remained and will remain. And thus I consider painting too, thinking that what abides is like a kind of flower growing. And as far as it concerns me, I reckon myself happy to be in it. But for the rest!
    This is to show you one must have no illusions.
    My letter has to be posted. At the moment I am working on a portrait of one of the patients here. It is curious that after one has been with them for some time and got used to them, one does not think of them as being mad any more.
    Embracing you in thought,
    Your loving Vincent

    --Written by Vincent van Gogh to his mother, about seven months before his death. The only thing he got wrong is that the "tulip trade" in his paintings never disappeared...

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by happycampyer View Post
    Perhaps way OT, but there are elements of this discussion and of the one across the way about the value of an early Vanilla that remind me of the following letter, and every time I am reminded of it and reread it, my heart cracks a bit.

    Dear Mother,
    Once again I want to write you a letter while you are still in the old house, to thank you for your last letter and the news of Cor's good voyage. I believe he will work there with zest, and thus have some pleasure in his life. What he writes you makes me think of what my friend Gauguin told me about Panama and Brazil. I did not know until now that Isaäcson is also going to the Transvaal. You know I never met him personally – but lately I have written him because he intended to write about my work in a Dutch paper, and I asked him not to do it; but also to thank him for his faithful sympathy, as from the beginning we have often thought of each other's work and have the same ideas about our old Dutch and modern French painters. And I also like De Haan's work very much.
    Now I can tell you that what I promised you is quite ready – the landscape studies and a small self-portrait and a study of an interior. But I fear it will disappoint you and the whole batch may seem unimportant and ugly to you. Wil and you can do what you like with them, and if you feel like giving something to the other sisters – for this reason I am sending a few more.
    But this does not concern me – I only try to form several things into a kind of whole which I would prefer remained together, so that it becomes more important in the course of time. But I already understand that you will not have room for everything, and therefore you may do what you like with them, but I advise you to keep them together, at least for some time, as in that case you will be better able to judge which ones you like best in the long run. I certainly agree with you that it is much better for Theo now than before, and I hope everything will go well with Jo's confinement; that will set them up for quite a while. It is always good to experience the way in which a human being comes into the world, and that leads many a character to more quietness and truth. Nature is very beautiful here in autumn with the yellow leaves. I am only sorry that there aren't more vineyards here. I started to paint one a few hours away though. It happens that a big field becomes quite purple and red, as the Virginia creeper with us, and next to that a yellow square, and a little farther on a spot which is still green. All this under a sky of a beautiful blue, and violet rocks in the distance. Last year I had a better opportunity to paint that than now. I should have liked to add something like it to what I am sending you, but I'll owe you this for next year.
    You will see from the self-portrait I add that though I saw Paris and other big cities for many years, I keep looking more or less like a peasant of Zundert, Toon, for instance, or Piet Prins, and sometimes I imagine I also feel and think like them, only the peasants are of more use in the world. Only when they have all the other things, they get a feeling, a desire for pictures, books, etc. In my estimation I consider myself certainly below the peasants.
    Well, I am ploughing on my canvases as they do on their fields.
    It goes badly enough in our profession – in fact that has always been so, but at the moment it is very bad. And yet never have such high prices been paid for pictures as these days.
    What makes us work on is friendship for each other, and love of nature, and finally, if one has taken all the pains to master the brush, one cannot leave painting alone. Compared with others, I still belong to the lucky ones, but think what it must be if one has entered the profession and has to leave it before one has done anything, and there are many like that. Given ten years as necessary to learn the profession and somebody who has struggled through six years and paid for them and then has to stop, just think how miserable that is, and how many there are like that!
    And those high prices one hears about, paid for work of painters who are dead and who were never paid so much while they were alive, it is a kind of tulip trade, under which the living painters suffer rather than gain any benefit. And it will also disappear like the tulip trade.
    But one may reason that, though the tulip trade has long been gone and is forgotten, the flower growers have remained and will remain. And thus I consider painting too, thinking that what abides is like a kind of flower growing. And as far as it concerns me, I reckon myself happy to be in it. But for the rest!
    This is to show you one must have no illusions.
    My letter has to be posted. At the moment I am working on a portrait of one of the patients here. It is curious that after one has been with them for some time and got used to them, one does not think of them as being mad any more.
    Embracing you in thought,
    Your loving Vincent

    --Written by Vincent van Gogh to his mother, about seven months before his death. The only thing he got wrong is that the "tulip trade" in his paintings never disappeared...
    Morrison said it best:

    ...the future is uncertain and the end is always near....

    "It's better to not know so much than to know so many things that ain't so." -- Josh Billings, 1885

    A man with any character at all must have enemies and places he is not welcome—in the end we are not only defined by our friends, but also those aligned against us.


  4. #144
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    Thanks Happycampyer, I read every word and take all to heart.

    Thank g-d for coffee, 70 mins. and my friends who humor me.

    I'll never lift a torch in anger. There, I said it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by suspectdevice View Post
    There are skilled pattern makers and machinists sitting around all day in American Legion halls drinking malt liquor and playing Keno.
    Those people, and their children and grand children would rather be working, and physically producing. But there are no jobs for people with their skillsets.... Besides making bombs.
    mebbe if you'd hire and train some of those drunk, unemployed longshoremen
    hooked on keno away from the vfw halls, you could have the workforce you so
    desire atmo. you want opinions atmo? i have them.


    Quote Originally Posted by suspectdevice View Post

    You can not tell me you are not offended when Specialized sells bikes for $7,000 that are made in China? Where does that price come from?
    i don't care what they cost, and until this thread, did not know what they
    cost. but they are bicycles sold to folks who have earned the money to
    buy them, and atmo no one has a gun to their head. the sale of these
    also allows for LBSs to make money so that they can have a life, feed
    families, and plan for retirement. oh - and mike sinyard was once an outsider
    too. a veritable firebrand who shook up what was once an old man's industry.
    after he made inroads and became a national class importer and distributor,
    he basically invented the MTB market for the consumer base, allowing the
    masses to taste the fruits of norcal's mt tam labor of love. and that market
    also allowed for many dude companies to spawn and hopefully prosper, too.
    perhaps, spooky bikes, born in the wake of all this, has done well atmo.


    Quote Originally Posted by suspectdevice View Post
    How do they justify their price structure? Why are bikes that are no better to ride, and offensive to look at more expensive than things that are built either Artisanlly or with the concept of efficient production and economy of design in mind?
    how do they justify it? they have mouths to feed and people's jobs at stake.
    atmo with as much as they (and their ilk) have done for cycling, commuting,
    safety (helmets), spreading a ripple effect, the sport - i could go on - i think
    they deserve to sell their bicycles for what the market will bear. when it ceases
    to bear them, someone else with the same zeal will replace him/the brand.

  6. #146
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    Ya know, I have a bit of that same piss and vinegar, big corp chasing the $$$ is killing america, we are losing our soul and future to the exodus of manufacturing capability and know-how that Mickey is ranting about.

    But,,,

    I read the posts, I want to believe, I want to say YEAH!!! FARK THOSE DAMN CORPORATE BIKE COMPANIES!!! THEY ARE THE GEARS AND LEVERS OF THE MACHINE!!! Then I head off to the TREK and SPECIALIZED websites to put in a few rightous words of indignation about how they are killing AMERICA. Then ya know what I saw at the website,,,

    http://www.specialized.com/bc/SBCBkModel.jsp?spid=34069

    And I got to thinkin'. That is a really affordable, useful bike. That is the kind of bike to start to get people out of the cars, onto a bike and affect a change in the car culture and if there is so much wasted infrastructure, wasted tooling and more importantly wasted labor (talking about people here), why isn't anyone tryin to produce these types of bikes.

    I took a look at Spooky Bikes, and ya know what, I see a lot of marketing writing there. Not a single, this is a bike that will get you out of your car, down to the market, off to school, stop the exodus of $$$ to the big Petro companies, get you a bit healthier, reduce the traffic congestion, pollution and build another road for another Hummmer mentality that I think of when I think of the whole bikes as a way to change our society for the better. Maybe I am off base here. Maybe you don't think of bikes that way. Maybe this is the just industry you chose to try to change the manufacturing business model you see dying in the USA. But if you really do think like I do about bikes, why aren't you trying to make a bike that will get people on the road. Not for XC racing. Not for Alleycats. Not to dominate that wednesday night cat 3 vacant industrial park crit. On to get people on a bike to get to work (maybe even a job where they make the very bike they ride to work).

    Just askin'

    Andrew

    And if you do start making that kind of bike, I will buy one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by andrew View Post
    ...And I got to thinkin'. That is a really affordable, useful bike. That is the kind of bike to start to get people out of the cars, onto a bike and affect a change in the car culture and if there is so much wasted infrastructure, wasted tooling and more importantly wasted labor (talking about people here), why isn't anyone tryin to produce these types of bikes.

    I took a look at Spooky Bikes, and ya know what, I see a lot of marketing writing there. Not a single, this is a bike that will get you out of your car, down to the market, off to school, stop the exodus of $$$ to the big Petro companies, get you a bit healthier, reduce the traffic congestion, pollution and build another road for another Hummmer mentality that I think of when I think of the whole bikes as a way to change our society for the better.
    Andrew for president!

    -g

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    happycamper, great post. "..the whole batch may seem unimportant and ugly to you." I stood in front of his self-portrait 11 years ago and it still affects me--it will remain one of the least unimportant moments in my art-loving life.

    suspectdevice, I like your willingness to fire and look forward to improvements in your aim. I think it's more important to be for something than against something else. Good luck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 72gmc View Post
    I think it's more important to be for something than against something else. Good luck.
    ya' know - that makes alotta sense atmo and should sum up at least most of this.

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    Isn't to be against something to be for something?





    (KIDDING...!!!!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catulle View Post
    Isn't to be against something to be for something?





    (KIDDING...!!!!)
    check the sig. Both apply.
    "It's better to not know so much than to know so many things that ain't so." -- Josh Billings, 1885

    A man with any character at all must have enemies and places he is not welcome—in the end we are not only defined by our friends, but also those aligned against us.


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    I hope that the ones who design bikes that ride well and fit right will survive. To me, design is 99% of what's important, just as it's the rider that is 99% responsible for making the thing go fast. But you should get the last 1% correct if you can, in both cases.

    BTW Mickey, I am/was a chemical engineer. :cheers:
    Mike Zanconato
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    alas - i have deemed this thread wiki-worthy atmo.




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    Quote Originally Posted by zank View Post
    I hope that the ones who design bikes that ride well and fit right will survive. To me, design is 99% of what's important, just as it's the rider that is 99% responsible for making the thing go fast. But you should get the last 1% correct if you can, in both cases.

    BTW Mickey, I am/was a chemical engineer. :cheers:
    If I thought that I'd stop going to the bench and just place a phone call to Taiwan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Curt Goodrich View Post
    If I thought that I'd stop going to the bench and just place a phone call to Taiwan.
    They do one-offs? :D

    Seriously though, I think "design" encompasses more than just geometry and tube selection. I think of construction methods and procedures as well when I think "design". I guess I made it sound like the "build" part of it is trivial, but that is not what I meant at all.

    backpedal...backpedal...
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    Speaking of the inability of new builders to gain lots of experience in building lugged, or otherwise, bikes - do any of you take on interns or apprentices? I'm not lookin'; I already work for the man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zank View Post
    They do one-offs? :D

    Seriously though, I think "design" encompasses more than just geometry and tube selection. I think of construction methods and procedures as well when I think "design". I guess I made it sound like the "build" part of it is trivial, but that is not what I meant at all.

    backpedal...backpedal...
    I think you had it right the first time, but I savvy the burrito on this one, too. Building frames is fairly easy, hell even CPG manages, but designing them right for a customer remote from you and doing all the front end work is hard.

    So, frame building ain't easy but it's necessary, and I gots potentials to blow up a Winchells. Donut. And you know what? When I was little I didn't wanna be like Mike. I wanted to be like Ike. Cuz' Papa Was A Rolling Stone in the sixties and he liked green just like Bill Bixby. Told me that my best friend was a ten and a twenty. Pockets never skinny.

    Or something like that...it's hard to be OG when you're a geeknerd framebuilder.
    Last edited by Archibald; 08-02-2008 at 12:59 PM.
    "It's better to not know so much than to know so many things that ain't so." -- Josh Billings, 1885

    A man with any character at all must have enemies and places he is not welcome—in the end we are not only defined by our friends, but also those aligned against us.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Curt Goodrich View Post
    Your first paragraph sums it up well for me. My original post might have sounded like I was complaining about my own business. I should have been more clear. I'm happy with my business and it's growing nicely. I guess I should just keep my head down and concern myself with what I'm doing. I think that's a paraphrase of Swoop's advice. I do that most of the time and will try to do it more.
    I think anyone who is proud of their industry and produces acclaimed work will worry about "me-toos" impacting the perception of their industry. I followed a couple of threads not long ago where a guy was building his own frame and you and Dave K (I think) were kind enough to give him guidance (crazy angles if I remember right). The idea of hoping on some sticks I welded together myself scares the crap out of me.

    When I have a health issue, I pick a doctor based on his credentials.... when I want a machine that might rocket down a hill at high speed (for an old fart) I choose (chose) a builder based on his experience.

    -Jeff

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