Strong Frames

[vulture]

Carl, somehow I relate to what you have said most so far in smoked out because of the tig welding component. Right to the point, When you grew your company to 10 employees was that related to Ibis? I seem to remember lots of tools moving to Montana. If so where did the tooling go, what technical frame building skills did you learn during that time and are you planning on retirement? You are one of the most successful frame builders there are and it doesn't seem like you are week to week or month to month so what is your future? If you could change your career what would you do?
cheers, Wade

[SteveP]

excellent perspective and congrats on figuring out the direction that you wanted to go...
and then getting there.
very well done.

honorary mba* for both of you.

* masters of bicycle assembly

[Carl S]

excellent perspective and congrats on figuring out the direction that you wanted to go...
and then getting there.
very well done.

honorary mba* for both of you.

* masters of bicycle assembly

Thanks Steve!!

[Don Walker]

Carl,

Here's a loaded question.

You give a seminar at NAHBS "the business of framebuilding" which focuses on the do's and dont's of being a professional framebuilder. Have you ever had any of the folks that have taken your seminar call or email you later and say "wow! my business has turned around since that seminar!" ? If so, did you get the feeling you were really helping develop and cultivate our niche of the industry?

Frankly, I think its wonderful that you would offer all the info that you have learned while getting your MBA in framebuilding... Thanks for doing it!

DW

[Carl S]

Carl,

Here's a loaded question.

You give a seminar at NAHBS "the business of framebuilding" which focuses on the do's and dont's of being a professional framebuilder. Have you ever had any of the folks that have taken your seminar call or email you later and say "wow! my business has turned around since that seminar!" ? If so, did you get the feeling you were really helping develop and cultivate our niche of the industry?

Frankly, I think its wonderful that you would offer all the info that you have learned while getting your MBA in framebuilding... Thanks for doing it!

DW

Hi DW! I get calls and email from attendees all the time. I've also developed some great relationships that are ongoing and have started working with builders not just on their business but Framebuilding as well. I've even brought one builder in for a week and helped him with some time issues he was having and evaluated his financials and made recommendations. Both of which he has reported are helping him turn the corner. I hope to invite others to my shop for one on one workshops in the future.

The reason I do the seminar is because Framebuilding as gotten the wrap that it cannot be a rewarding sustainable career. That bothers me because it's not true and I don't want promising builders to avoid the profession for fear that it won't work. It's also a tough nut to crack and in times of frustration and discouragement builders need to hear that they can make it through to the other side, it can work and they just need to stick with it. Having this unfounded idea that framebuilding can't earn you a living hanging over everyones head doesn't do the craft any good and I want to dispel the myth. Thanks for givining me the platform to work towards that end.

[dcpdpayne]

Hey Carl,
Meeting you and Loretta at NAHBS was a real treat; you two are truly a class act. With so much of your time being based around bicycles (building, riding, racing, and talking about them) what do you do to escape from them? Are there ever days when you just can’t bear the thought of a conversation about proper TIG welding methods, or what geometry will give the perfect balance of “lateral stiffness and vertical compliance?”

Thanks,
Andy

[Carl S]

Hey Carl,
Meeting you and Loretta at NAHBS was a real treat; you two are truly a class act. With so much of your time being based around bicycles (building, riding, racing, and talking about them) what do you do to escape from them? Are there ever days when you just can’t bear the thought of a conversation about proper TIG welding methods, or what geometry will give the perfect balance of “lateral stiffness and vertical compliance?”

Thanks,
Andy

Hi Andy, we both treat it a little differently. As you can imagine working together can be hard on a marriage so we have to pay a lot of attention to our relationship and how it's affected by Strong Frames. While I'm a total geek and never get tired of talking about bikes, riding, and framebuilding she would prefer we left it at work. So we try not to talk shop at after working hours.

To get away from work Loretta is an artist and pursues those interests and I enjoy woodworking and do a bunch of dirt bike riding as well. We also have a historic house that we spend a ton of time working on and a large yard that requires lots of work. Balance definitely helps keep things fun and interesting and I've learned a lot in the department from Loretta but when left to my own devices I've never been very good at it.

[caleb]

Hi Carl,

Last summer I found myself in Bozeman for a wedding. Bozeman struck me as a really cool place with some good eateries and lots of beat hardtail mountain bikes locked up on main street.

A buddy and I rented bikes from a shop (not Bangtail, the other one) and rode up to a reservoir to the west. Awesome.

DSCF0003.jpg

The weekend we were in town there was also a music festival in the park by our hotel. Walking past I spotted a grey Strong mountain bike - perhaps from the late 90s, it had v brakes - locked up to a fence along the road. I thought it was pretty neat to see one of your bikes on its home turf being used to get around town.

Although Bozeman seemed really cool, I don't imagine you ended up there by accident. What brought you to town? Is there a relationship between your work and your place? If so, what do you think it is? How important is your local community?

-Caleb

[Carl S]

Carl, somehow I relate to what you have said most so far in smoked out because of the tig welding component. Right to the point, When you grew your company to 10 employees was that related to Ibis? I seem to remember lots of tools moving to Montana. If so where did the tooling go, what technical frame building skills did you learn during that time and are you planning on retirement? You are one of the most successful frame builders there are and it doesn't seem like you are week to week or month to month so what is your future? If you could change your career what would you do?
cheers, Wade

Hi Wade, thanks for asking. BTW I'm glad to see you back in the biz.

When my company was at it's largest about half the frames I built were for Ibis, a quarter for Strong and the other quarter for other small private labels. We did move all the Ibis tooling up here and had a 7000 s/f shop where we did the building. Ultimately when Ibis went under TST had first position on the tools and so they split them with me 50/50 and I moved to my current shop. I still have a lot of them but a lot were junk and many were totally unnecessary and I slowly got rid of them over the years. I'm not sure I technically learned any major framebuilding lessons during that time but I got the repetition that you need at every aspect of the job. I think that time taught me more about business than it did framebuilding.

As for retirement, I hope to never stop building although as I grow older I may continue to reduce my output. I'm also aware I won't be able to work forever so I do have a retirement plan and will be able to continue supporting myself once I stop building. As a self employed person it's very important to remember that you're going to have to depend on yourself for your golden years and you can't start early enough. That's why I get so worried seeing builders just scraping along their entire career. You have to be able to invest in your retirement on top of the overhead of life and other responsibilities like health insurance, etc.

If I could change my career? hmmm...I'm not sure but I have a feeling it would be making something.

[theckeler]

As for retirement, I hope to never stop building although as I grow older I may continue to reduce my output. I'm also aware I won't be able to work forever so I do have a retirement plan and will be able to continue supporting myself once I stop building.

Curious: When you do stop building do you see yourself selling off the company to a promising young builder (maybe one you've trained), or will you dissolve it? Or is that thinking too far ahead?

[Carl S]

Curious: When you do stop building do you see yourself selling off the company to a promising young builder (maybe one you've trained), or will you dissolve it? Or is that thinking too far ahead?

Hopefully I'll never have to quit but if I do I imagine the business won't have any value so if sell anything it will just be the shop tools.

Which brings me back to Conor's question about branding. I might have made a more absolute statement than I should have. I said selling frames isn't only about the bikes but in some cases it can be. A framebuilding business can be anything and I think the further you get from the builder the more likely you are to build intrinsic value and have a sellable business.

The one caveat is that as a custom builder you probably have to start by building the brand around the builder and work out from there. Most will never get beyond that but many won't ever get to that. That's why in my business seminar I talk about a business model based on a single builder working from home. If you are gong to make a living in this business that's where you have to start. Once you accomplish that you can decide where to go from there. Different people have different skills and goals in my case I tried to grow out but learned that it wasn't for me and I went back to a one man (and wife) operation. Currently I work from a commercial space but it's my goal to build a shop at my house and move back to my home.

[Dazza]

Hopefully I'll never have to quit but if I do I imagine the business won't have any value so if sell anything it will just be the shop tools.

Which brings me back to Conor's question about branding. I might have made a more absolute statement than I should have. I said selling frames isn't only about the bikes but in some cases it can be. A framebuilding business can be anything and I think the further you get from the builder the more likely you are to build intrinsic value and have a sellable business.

The one caveat is that as a custom builder you probably have to start by building the brand around the builder and work out from there. Most will never get beyond that but many won't ever get to that. That's why in my business seminar I talk about a business model based on a single builder working from home. If you are gong to make a living in this business that's where you have to start. Once you accomplish that you can decide where to go from there. Different people have different skills and goals in my case I tried to grow out but learned that it wasn't for me and I went back to a one man (and wife) operation. Currently I work from a commercial space but it's my goal to build a shop at my house and move back to my home.

this is good speak
from a smart fellow
and some stuff there that I have pondered over in my cranium many times
Punters say "how good and cheap it is work from home"
I explain
if I croak it tomorrow, it is worth nothing to my MaryAnn or any body but a for a fire sale of tools and stock.
So one should make a saving and bank that saving if possible for the day when you have to stop.
If one owns a fish and chip shop, if you have to or the time arrives you can sell it as an on going business.
but the one man show.......................
So when one moves on from getting established ,
then running a good show for many years, decades
then there is the time when one has to think of retirement
A one person established frame builder will have a hard time moving into retirement or forced retirement if the body gives out, all those years of toil have not built any business equity.
It is hard to get that $ value back.
So when they say " but you love it" I want to head butt them, HARD!
I personally do not want to build frames till I croak it, I can and will satisfy my metal working urges in my hobby of live model steam locos.


"A framebuilding business can be anything and I think the further you get from the builder the more likely you are to build intrinsic value and have a sellable business. "

Carl, have you any thoughts on how a builder can further them self from the process
with out removing the very essence of what makes the one/two person show work so well in our niche?
This ? is what perplexes me. I have no idea how I could manage this.
and because of this
if some one {fool} offered me substatial sum of $ I will sell Llewellyn Custom Bicycles without hestitation.
Even my business name I chose in 1988 reflected this thought process.

[Carl S]

Carl, have you any thoughts on how a builder can further them self from the process
with out removing the very essence of what makes the one/two person show work so well in our niche?

Dazza, I don't know. I can guess like anyone else but I really don't know. I'd be interested in hearing what others think or know. Here is a guess:

Simplify what you offer and make it easy to understand, buy and of course desirable to the largest range of customer.
Make sure you can build it and scale the production and set up for future demand.
Hire and train an employee because you're going to need to spend a bunch of time on marketing, sales and administration.
Be sure to document all procedures and process so they are consistent, can be trained and perpetuated.
Set up distribution channels, retails, e-commerce or whatever.
Build and execute marketing and PR campaign. You'll probably have to use debt or equity investors to pay for this.
Take order and deliver.

Of course this is a WAG and sequence and time table can very. I can see it happening very slowly over time and I can also a well funded entrepreneur doing it rather quickly. Remember Airborn bikes?

How does that sound for starters, again I'm just guessing...I really don't know.

Anyone else care to take a stab at it?

[bking]

Dazza, I don't know. I can guess like anyone else but I really don't know. I'd be interested in hearing what others think or know. Here is a guess:

Simplify what you offer and make it easy to understand, buy and of course desirable to the largest range of customer.
Make sure you can build it and scale the production and set up for future demand.
Hire and train an employee because you're going to need to spend a bunch of time on marketing, sales and administration.
Be sure to document all procedures and process so they are consistent, can be trained and perpetuated.
Set up distribution channels, retails, e-commerce or whatever.
Build and execute marketing and PR campaign. You'll probably have to use debt or equity investors to pay for this.
Take order and deliver.

Of course this is a WAG and sequence and time table can very. I can see it happening very slowly over time and I can also a well funded entrepreneur doing it rather quickly. Remember Airborn bikes?

How does that sound for starters, again I'm just guessing...I really don't know.

Anyone else care to take a stab at it?

Carl, i took that stab, but moved it to general discussion as I think it's discussion on it's own: subject: where do you go from here

[TMB]

Hopefully I'll never have to quit but if I do I imagine the business won't have any value so if sell anything it will just be the shop tools.

Which brings me back to Conor's question about branding. I might have made a more absolute statement than I should have. I said selling frames isn't only about the bikes but in some cases it can be. A framebuilding business can be anything and I think the further you get from the builder the more likely you are to build intrinsic value and have a sellable business.

The one caveat is that as a custom builder you probably have to start by building the brand around the builder and work out from there. Most will never get beyond that but many won't ever get to that. That's why in my business seminar I talk about a business model based on a single builder working from home. If you are gong to make a living in this business that's where you have to start. Once you accomplish that you can decide where to go from there. Different people have different skills and goals in my case I tried to grow out but learned that it wasn't for me and I went back to a one man (and wife) operation. Currently I work from a commercial space but it's my goal to build a shop at my house and move back to my home.

How many times over the years have I written reports, or given seminars where I have had to try to explain, and make people understand, the difference between "personal goodwill" , "Brand goodwill", "business goodwill" and "enterprise value".

I can often have trouble making bankers understand it.

Seems a bike builder gets it.

[Carl S]

How many times over the years have I written reports, or given seminars where I have had to try to explain, and make people understand, the difference between "personal goodwill" , "Brand goodwill", "business goodwill" and "enterprise value".

I can often have trouble making bankers understand it.

Seems a bike builder gets it.

Maybe kinda gets it. It was 10 years before it started coming into focus and I still have a long way to go. It's funny how you can "know" something long before you "get" it. Every time I finally "get" something I look back and wonder how I could have known that for so long without "getting" it. Maybe I'm just a little more dense than most people