National driving policies

[holliscx]

This is definitely OT but the strangest thing happened to me while driving to the French Alps to ski about a month ago. In France, I noticed a hwy road sign that I was 85% sure said not to drive "parked" in the middle lane. Then suddenly it dawned on me why car after car was passing me on the left and then aggressively cutting over within 6" of my bumper before whipping their car into the right lane (only seconds later to move back to the middle lane to pass another vehicle). This was to make a statement that they did not approve of my driving in the middle lane of a 3-lane highway. But I disagree with the French national driving policy for the way I grew up driving was all slow traffic keeps to the right lane. Those driving at the speed limit stay in the middle lane. Finally, those passing (or speeding) use the left lane. Why this is safe as a national driving policy is it limits movement and changing lanes of vehicles which causes accidents. Over the 7 hour drive I tried many times to adopt the French policy but it felt less safe so I always reverted back to what I know. I wasn't the only driver driving like this but I was shocked how many Frenchies were constantly changing lanes back and forth moving erratically from the far left to far right. There was so much lane movement compared to my policy which is if you're driving with the flow to use the middle lane.

I have noticed before driving in Spain as well that a seeming high number of drivers were cutting over after passing me within 6" of my bumper. I do believe most of these drivers were French for I recall French license plates but I shook it off to bad drivers but I now believe the majority of those drivers were doing it to make a statement that they didn't agree with how I was driving. I'm shocked that it took me so long to notice but I haven't owned a car since 2004 and only occasionally rent. I'm a safe driver who's driven all over the world.

It feels strange to be at odds with a national driving policy but I refuse to compromise safety. I feel the way I drive is safer than France's policy full fucking stop. I drive the safest way I know how when I'm on the road. This is the first time I've ever noticed that it conflict's with a country's national driving policy. Apologies to all the Frenchies I'm pissing off! Je suis désolée. Don't take it personal. Fwiw your erratic lane changes looks dangerous af to me.

[j44ke]

France thanks you for your service to the safety of their country and they are preparing to award you their Ordre national de la Légion d'honneur at the earliest possible convenience.

[Paul Jacobs]

If you were to drive in the UK and stay in the middle lane on a motorway, you would very likely find the same reaction except we would pass you on the right instead of the left. It is also illegal.

Paraphrased from the RAC website -
In the UK it is an offence to hog the middle lane. It comes under ‘careless driving’, along with tailgating, accidentally running a red light and even being distracted by eating or drinking. Laws introduced in 2013 give police officers the power to hand out on-the-spot fines of £100 and three penalty points, meaning failing to keep left on the motorway could hit you in the pocket.

[holliscx]

This is what AAA says in the US:

When there are three or more lanes, use the right lane if you are traveling at a slower speed than traffic, the left lane for passing, and the center lane for cruising.

Americans, isn't this how we drive? I've never known anything else and this makes perfect sense to me for it minimizes lane changing overall which causes accidents.

I rented a car in Yorkshire funny enough in 2015 or 2016 to do Three Peaks CX. I was only on a 3-lane highway going back to the airport. Those narrow English lanes driving on the "wrong" side of the road are a whole other story. I was white knuckle the whole time. I don't know how y'all do that in unpleasant weather most of the time too.

[KonaSS]

As a red blooded American, I know for a fact that it is safer to carry my firearm on my belt wherever I go. So I thought it was weird in France when I noticed all kinds of people looking at me, scurrying away from me, or running to la police. I thought it was just typical rude, french, stand-offish behavior. Turns out they have laws against that.

I am safe with my firearms. I have carried all over the world and only had to discharge in public a few times. I feel carrying a firearm is safer than these Frenchie's laws full fucking stop. It is just crazy that someone feels like they have the right to tell me what to do just cause I am in their country. Don't they know I am an 'Merican and have rights!

[holliscx]

I just asked my wife and she said she doesn't know the national policy in Spain. So I looked it up and it says to stay right. Although I've rented a fair bit in Spain but haven't noticed it like I did driving to the French Alps. In France, the driving conduct was night and day.

What I'm going to struggle with now is that I feel less safe driving the "correct" way in these instances and that's not a feeling that I like. I tried constantly moving to the right but felt unsafe doing so.

Anyway not meaning to ruffle anyone's feathers. Fwiw I got my driver's license here with no practice (since I'd driven my whole life up to that point) but the Spanish driving school instructor refers to me as a legend. The Spanish driving school system is so corrupt. I learned to drive in the US by my dad taking me to a dirt road and driving a stick shift till his Isuzu Pup pickup truck stopped bucking like a bronco. Eventually I got the clutch / gas equilibrium and I won't touch an automatic if I can help it

[9tubes]

Come to Seattle. You would fit right in.

Here, on a four lane freeway, the trucks form a long moving wall in the the third lane from the right, normal-speed cars are in the second lane, speeders in the fourth, and nobody drives in the right lane because no matter where they are from, all drivers lose their ability to merge once arriving here and become terrified of the right lane.

[vertical_doug]

This is what AAA says in the US:

When there are three or more lanes, use the right lane if you are traveling at a slower speed than traffic, the left lane for passing, and the center lane for cruising.

Americans, isn't this how we drive? I've never known anything else and this makes perfect sense to me for it minimizes lane changing overall which causes accidents.

I rented a car in Yorkshire funny enough in 2015 or 2016 to do Three Peaks CX. I was only on a 3-lane highway going back to the airport. Those narrow English lanes driving on the "wrong" side of the road are a whole other story. I was white knuckle the whole time. I don't know how y'all do that in unpleasant weather most of the time too.

That's why my wife loves traffic jams. She doesn't have to think about any of that stupid shit In an emergency, like I am in a hurry, you have two shoulders so a total of 5 lanes. It's only a problem when someone thinks they are the hall monitor and pulls over to partially block the shoulder. Dick move.

[rec head]

Couple questions,

1) WTF is the center lane for if it isn't for regular driving? If you aren't allowed to use it you might as well only have 2 lanes.

That's why my wife loves traffic jams. She doesn't have to think about any of that stupid shit In an emergency, like I am in a hurry, you have two shoulders so a total of 5 lanes. It's only a problem when someone thinks they are the hall monitor and pulls over to partially block the shoulder. Dick move.

2) Are you saying driving on the shoulder is what I'm supposed to do if there is heavy traffic?

[Peter Polack]

If it appears this behavior is happening to you frequently enough, then it's time to travel in the right hand lane
as you are not driving fast enough for French tastes.

[72gmc]

Come to Seattle. You would fit right in.

Here, on a four lane freeway, the trucks form a long moving wall in the the third lane from the right, normal-speed cars are in the second lane, speeders in the fourth, and nobody drives in the right lane because no matter where they are from, all drivers lose their ability to merge once arriving here and become terrified of the right lane.

This is true, but it's also true that some of the segmented concrete in the right lane is worn out to the point that driving there is like running a whoops section in a Supercross.

[holliscx]

To make matters worse the speed limit is 130 kph in France. What makes the French and UK policies more dangerous in my opinion is that the number of lane changes per vehicle is exponentially higher with their national stay-right policies. It's a pretty straight shot to the Alps and I observed time and again high speed constant erratic movement across all three lanes compared to the US policy in which I occasionally used the left lane to pass vehicles and never moved into the right lane except for when I was testing the French policy. The number of lane changes between France and the US is by a factor that you can't comprehend that's why I feel the US method is safer. The vast majority drive with the flow in the middle and the right hand lane is for trucks and slow traffic while the left is for passing and speeding. What's dangerous about the French system is you have speeding in all three lanes.

[j44ke]

There is literally nothing in the US that is safer than Europe. Not with an average of 4 guns per person in the US.

Your wife is a saint Hollis, you know that right?

[holliscx]

No one can convince me that driving slower with fewer lane changes is not safer than driving faster with exponentially more lane changes.

I've never had an accident in my life. I drive safely respecting all cars on the road at all times. What's more if someone drove in a manner that I disagree with I would never swerve to overtake them within 6" of their bumper or pull any similar dick move. I would never bully a driver that way, it's dangerous and wrong.

All I'm saying is I'm an innocent good driver commenting on what I observed! I don't wish to break the driving rules anywhere but unknowingly did on my recent drive through France

Jorn, you don't know my wife but you're probably right. My best friends have said something to that effect :)

[Bob Ross]

It feels strange to be at odds with a national driving policy ...

I spent all my life living in New York and Massachussetts, so the bulk of my ~50 years of driving experience has been around USA's east coast. Then four years ago we moved to Arizona
...where, inexplicably, the seemingly universal law about Slower Traffic Keep Right, Faster Traffic Pass On The Left Only is not practiced (!) Even on two-lane roads it is legal here to pass on the right (!!!)

Freaking savages, I tell you. I don't think I will ever get used to this. :smh:

[holliscx]

I grew up in south Georgia where Vidalia sweet onions are from and when I was learning to drive you waved to every car that passed. I got where I just lifted my pinkie off the steering wheel but nobody doesn't wave to a passing vehicle in the South, well, back in the day anyway. Ironically I don't wave to anyone on my bike unless I'm on a solo tour and pass a solo tourer in the middle of nowhere .. I must have too many scars from Ga.

I've been bicycle only since 2004. Don't really miss it to be honest. I get reverse culture shock in the US when we drive from parking lot to parking lot.

My brother just bought a Tesla (funny timing!) and my best friend drives a Rivian. I didn't know that you had to pay to charge EVs but I've been out of the game awhile although both pointed out that there are "free" options at hotels and some municipalities that sponsor charging stations. They both told me it costs about $37 to charge from 0 to 100% battery on a super charger. My brother said charging in his garage overnight is 80% cheaper

[rec head]

Moving on to EV charging, I find that I enjoy the drive more now that I have to take longer charging stops vs old fashioned gas ups. I get out find the toilet, walk for a while then grab a pillow and rest my eyes for 5 or 10 minutes. I feel so much better on the next leg than if I had pumped, peed and bolted. I also feel safer and that I am driving better 9 hours in. I still don't like 10+ hours on the road but it is better.

[sk_tle]

My 2 cents as a french guy.

Those driving at the speed limit stay in the middle lane. Finally, those passing (or speeding) use the left lane

I find that statement and policy totally illogical. Since speeding is illegal and those staying at the speed limit would be on the middle lane according to you, there would be no use for a third/left lane.

Why this is safe as a national driving policy is it limits movement and changing lanes[...] I was shocked how many Frenchies were constantly changing lanes back and forth moving erratically from the far left to far right.

Sounds to me they had to move from the far left to the far right only because some people not following the local rule where forcing them to. Otherwise they would use the the middle lane to pass trucks and slower vehicles and only move to the far left when they are significantly faster than a vehicle already overtaking on the middle lane.

It feels strange to be at odds with a national driving policy but I refuse to compromise safety.

When I am driving a car in another country I tend to adapt to the local system. For instance if I am in Italy I just stop looking at my rear view mirrors because that is what the local do: always forward, those who are behind have to do the same. When I spent a month in Mexico last fall, I started driving very cautiously at first while I was trying to figure out the logic then after a week I sent everything to the bin and started driving the Mexican way: I was making room wherever I wanted to be, except if I was sure of an instant death in a fight (for instance against a semi), and moved fast when changing lane without hesitating so that nobody could try blocking me. My partner made fun of me but at the same time was a bit frightened to see how quickly I started driving like a mexican.

your erratic lane changes looks dangerous af to me.

That is the thing: looking dangerous doesn't mean it is dangerous. When I am riding my mountain bike and braking a bit too hard from the rear tire on purpose to induce a skid, I look dangerous to hikers around me (so I stopped doing that) while I am in fact totally in control and possibly more than someone not slowing down too much and unaware of the available grip but way more silent. Perception versus reality. Changing lanes is part of driving and only dangerous if not announced to the lazy american people hampering traffic by dozing off on the middle lane.

There is a parameter you forget to count. When people stay on the middle lane all the time, they lose that habit and get totally unable to switch lane when they need to. The consequence is huge slow down from the middle lane whenever a truck decide to overtake another truck or there is an highway entry and all new drivers start switching lane and stacking in front of them. Those huge and sudden slow down usually create pileups whenever someone is a bit distracted.

[BBB]

Driving on dual (or more) carriageways (ie two or more lanes going in the same direction) is safer than single carriageways (ie a single lane going in one direction, with a corresponding single lane going in the other, or practically speaking most roads outside of freeways et al), but people do struggle with keeping left (remembering I am in Australia). It is infuriating when someone buzzes along the right hand over-taking lane doing say 95kmph (and the road is limited to 100kmph). Alternatively, you overtake only to have some bozo come up behind you well over the speed limit and get miffed that you are overtaking, just not as fast as them, only to tailgate to prove how miffed they are. They will in 99.9% of cases be a male driver too. Driving in the right hand lane when not overtaking is a traffic offence. Tailgating is a more serious offence.

That said, most sensible and sane drivers stay to the left and more or less stick to the speed limit.

Having driven in various parts of Europe, including through small towns, up narrow mountain roads and along multi-lane highways, in my experience the Italians are pretty bad drivers. They are just impatient. Why do they need to get where they are going in such a hurry? The only thing I can think of is mama's favourite pasta sauce gives them the runs. Hence they are all speeding towards the nearest toilet. The French on the other hand were fine. Sure some people drove fast on the highways, but they are now where near as impatient as the Italians.

A look at death rates per 100,000 head of population reveals:

Australia: 4.54 (as of 2022).
France: 4.98 (as of 2022).
Italy: 5.35 (as of 2022).
USA: 12.84 (as of 2022).

The USA figure makes j44ke's point about being safer in Europe.

The slightly higher death rate in Italy compared to France makes my point about the impact of Mama's favourite pasta sauce on Italian bowels.

Hence...drive in France instead of Italy.

[Tom]

Deaths per miles driven would be a much more relevant statistic to gauge the relative safety. It's harder to get that data, though.

Assuming, of course, that dying is somehow correlated to danger.