And now for something new...did the Pandemic change your political ideology?

[davids]

Bro, a conspiracy theory involves conspiring. Who am I suggesting is conspiring? It's not like there's Big Covid like Big Pollution or Big Tobacco. Maybe I should start looking for the Exxon of Covid....

It's responses like yours that illustrate the difficult position disillusioned individuals find themselves in.

I’m suggesting you are! Hey, even the most virulent theory has to start with someone.

So yeah: COVID transmission is airborne. An individual’s risk of infection increases dramatically as these 3 factors increase: Proximity, time and lack of airflow.

And yeah: People with lower socioeconomic status have a harder time – whether because of work or living conditions – keeping proximity, time and lack of airflow within safe parameters.

This been known, and widely reported, for over a year.

And there has been debate about the value of masking in public spaces for almost as long. Masking in those situation can been seen (uncharitably) as virtue-signaling or (sympathetically) as offering protection to our fellow humans.

(Plus replacing your gas-fueled vehicle with an electric-powered vehicle can have a positive effect on the world’s CO2 load. Although like so many other things, like wearing a mask in public to mitigate COVID spread, it’s complicated.)

So maybe I don’t get your point. Or maybe I recognized that COVID has hit poorer, darker communities harder long before you did.

[beeatnik]

I’m suggesting you are! Hey, even the most virulent theory has to start with someone.

So yeah: COVID transmission is airborne. An individual’s risk of infection increases dramatically as these 3 factors increase: Proximity, time and lack of airflow.

And yeah: People with lower socioeconomic status have a harder time – whether because of work or living conditions – keeping proximity, time and lack of airflow within safe parameters.

This been known, and widely reported, for over a year.

And there has been debate about the value of masking in public spaces for almost as long. Masking in those situation can been seen (uncharitably) as virtue-signaling or (sympathetically) as offering protection to our fellow humans.

(Plus replacing your gas-fueled vehicle with an electric-powered vehicle can have a positive effect on the world’s CO2 load. Although like so many other things, like wearing a mask in public to mitigate COVID spread, it’s complicated.)

So maybe I don’t get your point. Or maybe I recognized that COVID has hit poorer, darker communities harder long before you did.

Respectfully disagree on that last point. I own a home in the inner city and I knew last Feb that my tenant’s experience of the pandemic would be more horrific than mine. I also knew that her actions would impact community spread more than mine. At the moment, that community has the highest case rate in the City of Los Angeles which is to say one of the highest in the entire world.

[bigbill]

I'm the chief engineer at a 400K square foot manufacturing plant. I had a hard time with the information that was being put out early last year. I considered the science and took proactive steps to: greatly increase air exchange, increase circulation in the work space, re-engineer processes to move employees apart, install Lexan barriers where it wasn't possible to separate employees, hired additional employees to sanitize common areas frequently through the day, sent folks all over to buy cleaning products, and made PPE easily available to all. All of these actions were conservative because I felt politics was interfering with the whole truth. First, the virus couldn't be transmitted airborne, bullshit, I can't believe they ever said that. Then we weren't supposed to wear masks, and while this might have been to prevent a shortage for the medical field, it was not true. Another hit to the trust factor.

Then the workup to the election last year. Trump vaccine bad, we should be wary of anything that came from the Trump administration, Democrats planted seeds of doubt about vaccinations, perhaps to win an election. Then the democrats won, so the vaccine was okay. Then the winning party took credit for the vaccine and distribution. It made me hate politics even more. I didn't like Trump, but I more strongly dislike the use of the vaccine as a political tool.

All of my immediate and extended family are vaccinated now. I'm almost two months post second Moderna. The measures I took at work are, for the most part, permanent. Hopefully, we as a nation never again get caught out by a political misinformation delaying response to an epidemic.

[beeatnik]

I have spent the last 14 months studying airborne transmission of this infectious aerosol and helping people reduce that risk. I agree with a lot of what you say but also strongly disagree with some of what you say, it’s tough for me to follow. I disagree with what is quoted above!

It has been and continues to be the position of ASHRAE (American Society of Heating, Refrigeration, and Air conditioning Engineers) that mechanical concerns such as ventilation rates and air filtration are secondary to concerns like masking and distancing. The primary mode of transmission is person-to-person.

Based on Lindsey Marr’s and Jimenez’s aerosol studies along with the Science paper linked doesn’t it follow that masks are more effective where there’s less virus. In other words a person in a community or environment with lower rates of transmission would gain more efficacy from masking. These papers as I’ve read them argue for N95s in virus abundant environments. The point I’ve noted is that masking was inadequate for the most threatened communities. The high transmission rates in LA would support that view. The only mitigation available to these communities was masking. And they were religious about it. Yet, in the most impacted areas 20% of individuals have tested positive. The conservative estimate is that half were infected. 50%. Not in NYC, not in Manaus, not in Mumbai but in LA neighborhoods where the median home price is $600,000. You mention your organization. Would you care to speculate how much transmission could have been reduced in places with high mask use if the messaging had been focused on ventilation and outdoor activity. If credits had been provided for HEPA air purifiers.

[takashi]

@bigbill

"Democrats planted seeds of doubt about vaccinations, perhaps to win an election."

Could you say more about this or better yet provide links?

[beeatnik]

@bigbill

"Democrats planted seeds of doubt about vaccinations, perhaps to win an election."

Could you say more about this or better yet provide links?

He could start with a clip of Kamala Harris saying she wouldn't take Trump's vaccine. There's more context to that but I'm sure it was lost on many.

[Sino]

I didn't change mine but it enlightened me as to how far to the right some of the people I thought I knew were. I'm a moderate Democrat, left leaning Walter Mondale Republican, and all of a sudden DT is the greatest thing since sliced bread? WTF as the Father of Daughters I oppose this message. What amazed me was how few I could have a rational discussion with as soon as I said I disagree i was labeled a leftist snow flake? I invited a few to Adult Beverages at the venue of their choice but no one wanted to engage in public. Hmm Did my political views change...No did my views on Social Media change? Absolutely. It's easy to be a cyber bully, harder to look someone in the eye and talk smack.

Felt exactly the same, but on the other side. Generally pretty central on most things (personal liberties, universal health care, cheaper+better education, etc. I'm left leaning; guns, Constitution, smaller gov., fiscally, I'm right.) but leaning right.

From the onset, there were no easy decisions. There might not have even been any "right" decisions. Pointing that out to members firmly on the left, who only wanted to hate on Trump, made people go berserk.

On both sides, people seemed to lose all sense of perspective and reason.

While it didn't change my ideas on politics, it did make me feel deeply isolated in my political views. The speed at which both sides drove violently at lightspeed into "you're with us, or you're against us," is something that has changed me forever.

[beeatnik]

While it didn't change my ideas on politics, it did make me feel deeply isolated in my political views. The speed at which both sides drove violently at lightspeed into "you're with us, or you're against us," is something that has changed me forever.

This.

[johnmdesigner]

I have come to realize that during this difficult time many of my beliefs were correct. Being free of personal responsibility (no debt, no kids, property owner) has served us well. My wife who is a fantastic cook rose to the occasion and we have lived a wonderful life isolated from the rest of the world for 1 and a half years. If someone asked me for advice about moving to America I would tell them to embrace the idea that you are on your own and that only you can protect yourself.
The real question is where to go from here.
We are planning to sell our NYC property soon and I can't see any reason to invest our money in another property in America. But where to go? Spain has its Vox, France has the National Front, etc. And the world view of America is so low now they refer to us as "other countries that want to visit".
I do not want to walk down the street wondering if we will be attacked because my wife is Chinese (yes, there was one close call). I do not want to walk around with an assault rifle slung over my shoulder. I am also tired of living under governments both left and right who have absolutely no interest in the quality of life for most Americans.
Right wing parties are having a great time in most of the countries we would consider living in.
We are planning to become nomads.
I always thought that at 62 I would be looking forward to a house in the country, unlimited gin and cycling every day. Not going to happen. I love my country and yet I am a man without a country.
I read the news this morning about the shitheads in Texas voting in a law that removes all restrictions for gun possession. Do people actually read these things and become so outraged that they do something about it? Not where I live.
We are now experiencing an election campaign in NYC for Mayor. Certainly I cannot say enough about this group of worthless dry turds who will do absolutely nothing. If one of them stood out in my street and emptied the garbage can or used a spade and a bucket of asphalt to fill the potholes they would have my vote.
Sorry for the anger. My car's AC blew out, there's a leak in my bathroom, Management won't respond and every handyman you call decides the job is too small for them and they won't be honest to your face so they never send the promised estimate.

[takashi]

He could start with a clip of Kamala Harris saying she wouldn't take Trump's vaccine. There's more context to that but I'm sure it was lost on many.

You mean this?

"I will say that I would not trust Donald Trump and it would have to be a credible source of information that talks about the efficacy and the reliability of whatever he's talking about"

"She said she "would trust the word of public health experts and scientists, but not Donald Trump."

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/05/polit...ntv/index.html

[davids]

Respectfully disagree on that last point. I own a home in the inner city and I knew last Feb that my tenant’s experience of the pandemic would be more horrific than mine. I also knew that her actions would impact community spread more than mine. At the moment, that community has the highest case rate in the City of Los Angeles which is to say one of the highest in the entire world.

Well, then I don't get your point.

[beeatnik]

You mean this?

"I will say that I would not trust Donald Trump and it would have to be a credible source of information that talks about the efficacy and the reliability of whatever he's talking about"

"She said she "would trust the word of public health experts and scientists, but not Donald Trump."

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/05/polit...ntv/index.html

Are you suggesting that Harris was not being intellectually dishonest? That a vaccine could have been made available without an Emergency Use Authorization simply on Trump's whim or political pressure?

Here's the relevant quote from that CNN article:

Asked by CNN's Dana Bash in a clip released Saturday whether she would get a vaccine that was approved and distributed before the election, Harris replied, "Well, I think that's going to be an issue for all of us."

"I will say that I would not trust Donald Trump and it would have to be a credible source of information that talks about the efficacy and the reliability of whatever he's talking about," she continued in the clip from an exclusive interview airing Sunday on CNN's "State of the Union" at 9 a.m. ET. "I will not take his word for it."

and this:

When asked by Bash whether she thought that public health experts and scientists would get the last word on the efficacy of a vaccine, Harris predicted that they will not.

"If past is prologue that they will not, they'll be muzzled, they'll be suppressed, they will be sidelined," Harris said. "Because he's looking at an election coming up in less than 60 days and he's grasping to get whatever he can to pretend he has been a leader on this issue when he is not."

[beeatnik]

Sorry for the anger. My car's AC blew out, there's a leak in my bathroom, Management won't respond and every handyman you call decides the job is too small for them and they won't be honest to your face so they never send the promised estimate.

Biggest personal impact of the Pandemic for me. Half my block is in perpetual remodeling so I lose an hour of sleep to sawing and jackhammering daily. And not surprisingly, it's impossible to find a contractor who can squeeze in an under $50k project. First World.

[beeatnik]

Well, then I don't get your point.

You have yet to elucidate the nature of the conspiracy I'm fomenting, btw.

[bigbill]

@bigbill

"Democrats planted seeds of doubt about vaccinations, perhaps to win an election."

Could you say more about this or better yet provide links?

It's been mentioned, Kamala Harris cast doubt. I can't believe at this point past the election, that this has to be pointed out.

[takashi]

It's been mentioned, Kamala Harris cast doubt. I can't believe at this point past the election, that this has to be pointed out.

"I will not take his word for it."

I have no problem with this response

[nahtnoj]

I'm the chief engineer at a 400K square foot manufacturing plant. I had a hard time with the information that was being put out early last year. I considered the science and took proactive steps to: greatly increase air exchange, increase circulation in the work space, re-engineer processes to move employees apart, install Lexan barriers where it wasn't possible to separate employees, hired additional employees to sanitize common areas frequently through the day, sent folks all over to buy cleaning products, and made PPE easily available to all. All of these actions were conservative because I felt politics was interfering with the whole truth. First, the virus couldn't be transmitted airborne, bullshit, I can't believe they ever said that. Then we weren't supposed to wear masks, and while this might have been to prevent a shortage for the medical field, it was not true. Another hit to the trust factor.

Then the workup to the election last year. Trump vaccine bad, we should be wary of anything that came from the Trump administration, Democrats planted seeds of doubt about vaccinations, perhaps to win an election. Then the democrats won, so the vaccine was okay. Then the winning party took credit for the vaccine and distribution. It made me hate politics even more. I didn't like Trump, but I more strongly dislike the use of the vaccine as a political tool.

All of my immediate and extended family are vaccinated now. I'm almost two months post second Moderna. The measures I took at work are, for the most part, permanent. Hopefully, we as a nation never again get caught out by a political misinformation delaying response to an epidemic.

............

[davids]

You have yet to elucidate the nature of the conspiracy I'm fomenting, btw.

Public masking and social distancing are not effective in protecting us from COVID. COVID is like air pollution and that makes socioeconomically disadvantaged areas more vulnerable.

[thollandpe]

Based on Lindsey Marr’s and Jimenez’s aerosol studies along with the Science paper linked doesn’t it follow that masks are more effective where there’s less virus. In other words a person in a community or environment with lower rates of transmission would gain more efficacy from masking. These papers as I’ve read them argue for N95s in virus abundant environments. The point I’ve noted is that masking was inadequate for the most threatened communities. The high transmission rates in LA would support that view. The only mitigation available to these communities was masking. And they were religious about it. Yet, in the most impacted areas 20% of individuals have tested positive. The conservative estimate is that half were infected. 50%. Not in NYC, not in Manaus, not in Mumbai but in LA neighborhoods where the median home price is $600,000. You mention your organization. Would you care to speculate how much transmission could have been reduced in places with high mask use if the messaging had been focused on ventilation and outdoor activity. If credits had been provided for HEPA air purifiers.

I don't know how the effectiveness of masks relates to the risk of the environment, but I do know that masking should be the primary defense, with ventilation secondary. You wrote "environmental mitigations (air filtration, open windows) or low community transmission can mitigate as well or better than mask usage" and that's what I take issue with. Like if you want to go into a room to open the windows, put on a mask first. Put on a mask if you want to change the filters in an air handler.

Those transmission rates you quote are awful, and the social asymmetry of this pandemic's effects is awful. I wish we had rolled out the ventilation guidance from authorities like ASHRAE early and nationally, and made the knowhow and muscle to make the changes available to all. Like actual leadership from the top instead of the shitshow that was the Coronavirus Task Force (see remarks on injection inside of disinfectant and very powerful light inside the body). Like you point out, credits for portable HEPA filters, or even using the Defense Production Act to manufacture and distribute them en masse, could have saved huge numbers of lives. Because those portable HEPA units really do work, and they are in ASHRAE's recommendations.

Here is a link to ASHRAE's resource page: https://www.ashrae.org/covid19
The Core Recommendations are pretty tractable.

Here's a helpful discussion of the evolution from droplet to aerosol transmission.
Droplets vs Aerosols: What's More Important in COVID-19 Spread?
— CDC finally acknowledged aerosol transmission, but contribution to case counts remains unclear
A note to @bigbill, lexan and plexiglass shields are designed to combat droplet transmission, and can actually exacerbate aerosol transmission where they inhibit airflow.

[72gmc]

I try to see politicians as tools I can use to achieve the kind of society I want. In the past, I've done my best to look past Ds and Rs and look to the individual's record to inform my vote.

The pandemic reinforced to me that a large percentage of US politicians are not viable tools for voters to use. They will say anything to get votes, they want to limit conversation to D vs R, and they are unable to articulate their ideas or plans for a better future. If these people continue to get votes, we will continue to get misinformation and bad outcomes.