Well, the Haredi communities in Israel have been particularly hard hit since they initially ignored the original guidelines. It was very bad. The army had to called and a community of 200,000 people where put in lock down.
It is hard to describe the isolation of the members of those communities, even in one of the most technologically advanced countries in the world (Israel). For outsiders, avoiding the news is nearly an impossibility. We can't even enjoy a nice several minutes on a bike forum without reading something about Trump this or Trump that. The cloistering of the Chasid is comprehensive, and they are highly susceptible to rumor and inaccuracies as a result. See the measles epidemic from last year. I think NYC kind of forgot about how out of touch these people still are, didn't push the information through the Rabbis strongly enough, and didn't foresee how much of a problem their way of life was going to be once Covid19 entered the community.
By the way, isn’t the mezuzah (and the associated custom) a significant health hazard in these times? How are people getting around the issue, if at all?
Oh right - you are talking about touching the mezuzah and kissing your hand.
It is the same as Catholics and drinking from the chalice and wafer and touching the forehead. Practices have to change and there are allowances in most faiths, including Judaism, for personal health.
But again, the community has to be taught these things, the information has to go through the Rabbis (who are not necessarily learned men,) and the government has to persist in pushing that information through to the faithful. It isn't simple.
Sort of like getting people not to go crowd up Home Depot whenever they want to, you know?
Well, the Haredi communities in Israel have been particularly hard hit since they initially ignored the original guidelines. It was very bad. The army had to called and a community of 200,000 people where put in lock down.
And in/around NYC. New Rochelle was, if I recall correctly, one of the first hotspots.
The ultra-orthodox are cloistered, unworldly, a-scientifc (anti-scientific would imply that they're deniers. They're not deniers, they're ignorers!) and very suspicious of outsiders of any kind. It's a recipe for maximum pandemic impact.
The top Covid-19 comorbidities listed by New York, in order, are hypertension, diabetes, high cholesterol, coronary artery disease, dementia and atrial fibrillation, a heart condition. Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, another respiratory ailment, but one with an older demographic than asthma, ranks seventh. Renal disease, cancer and congestive heart failure round out the list.
My wife just received a bucket of mail from USPS that they had been holding since her store closed for the lockdown. I told her to burn it. She said no, there might be bills in there. I told her that's an even better reason to burn it.
We have three plastic tubs on rotation in our garage. Mail and packages go from the box or porch are wiped off with an alcohol rag, and placed into that day's tub, then hands are washed immediately. After 72 hours, we open anything that isn't junk and carefully keep the contents we want, and immediately put the waste in the recycling. Hands are washed again. Three day quarantine on any incoming items. It's not so intrusive once you get used to it.
My only hope is that my FFF list at work will hopefully shrink. FFF = Freddy Fecal Fingers = known non-handwashers after using the restroom. Steer clear always!
Oh right - you are talking about touching the mezuzah and kissing your hand.
It is the same as Catholics and drinking from the chalice and wafer and touching the forehead. Practices have to change and there are allowances in most faiths, including Judaism, for personal health.
But again, the community has to be taught these things, the information has to go through the Rabbis (who are not necessarily learned men,) and the government has to persist in pushing that information through to the faithful. It isn't simple.
Sort of like getting people not to go crowd up Home Depot whenever they want to, you know?
At least the Catholics don't have to do that every time they go through a door. Most Catholics I know don't even go to church regularly so they don't even see the chalice or wafer. :)
At least the Catholics don't have to do that every time they go through a door. Most Catholics I know don't even go to church regularly so they don't even see the chalice or wafer. :)
The ultra-Orthodox Haredi aren't most Jews, so please distinguish the fundamentalists from most of us. Please?
Well, the Haredi communities in Israel have been particularly hard hit since they initially ignored the original guidelines. It was very bad. The army had to called and a community of 200,000 people where put in lock down.
I assume that many households in those communities have multiple generations, which accelerates the spread.
My former classmate was giving me some details on the Swedish situation, and he said that a disproportionate percentage of infections are amongst the immigrant communities who tend to have multigenerational households unlike the ethnic Swedes and socialise a lot more than them, leading to much higher rate of infections.
I meant that religious rituals almost always have “outs” built into their dogma to help ensure personal health and well-being. There have been changes in Catholic communion to protect the priests and the congregation in various instances and for various reasons (alcoholism for example.) Likewise the necessity to perform the observance of touching the mezuzah when entering a room should be adjustable based on a threat to health. And so too should the necessity of getting together in a big group in a massive church every Sunday without fail.
But none of this is simple. Maybe it should be, but it isn’t.
As far as multi-generational families living together and creating fertile ground for virus transfer, that’s evidently one of the contributing factors in Italy. But that’s not an immigrant issue. That’s just Italy.
NYC has similar issues. Maybe that’s cultural. Or immigrant culture. But I bet it is also the high cost of housing. Could be the same in Italy. Who would want to live with their parents in a two bedroom apartment if they could afford their own apartment?
By the way, isn’t the mezuzah (and the associated custom) a significant health hazard in these times? How are people getting around the issue, if at all?
As far as multi-generational families living together and creating fertile ground for virus transfer, that’s evidently one of the contributing factors in Italy. But that’s not an immigrant issue. That’s just Italy.
I believe it is the same for Spain and it doesn't have anything to do with immigration. There are a lot of families with 3 generations living in the same roof, and including some times aunts or uncles. These are for both cultural and economic reasons. People culturally have also more physical interaction and proximities in latin/north african countries. Here in Andalucia when you are in a bus it is not uncommon that a stranger will grab you by the arms or touch your shoulder to get your attention and discuss about something, be it your outfit, asking for directions, or anything. In a bar you can talk to someone, including people from other gender in very close proximity, our faces less than 10cm of distance without it being a flirt or anything and you will kiss a lot of people you barely know. This is something that rarely happen in northern european country or in Switzerland where I used to live.
I believe it is the same for Spain and it doesn't have anything to do with immigration. There are a lot of families with 3 generations living in the same roof, and including some times aunts or uncles. These are for both cultural and economic reasons. People culturally have also more physical interaction and proximities in latin/north african countries. Here in Andalucia when you are in a bus it is not uncommon that a stranger will grab you by the arms or touch your shoulder to get your attention and discuss about something, be it your outfit, asking for directions, or anything. In a bar you can talk to someone, including people from other gender in very close proximity, our faces less than 10cm of distance without it being a flirt or anything and you will kiss a lot of people you barely know. This is something that rarely happen in northern european country or in Switzerland where I used to live.
When we moved to NYC, I had to stop putting my hand on someone's shoulder and saying "You alright?" after a sidewalk collision. Think I picked that up in Virginia where everyone is always checking on everyone else. You okay? Okay here? Need anything? How you doing? Hey alright? Got it?
When we moved to NYC, I had to stop putting my hand on someone's shoulder and saying "You alright?" after a sidewalk collision. Think I picked that up in Virginia where everyone is always checking on everyone else. You okay? Okay here? Need anything? How you doing? Hey alright? Got it?
Reminds me of a lovely NYC moment. I had just come back from Wyoming after quitting my job at the mine. My sister was living in Greenwich and needed some help building her apt. loft. I took the train, so far so good, but the trouble started when I got off the train. My (cough) uniquely wired brain wanted to see a vista in order to navigate, undergound I felt helpless. Rather than take a breath and read the symbols directing me to the correct subway line I just lost it. Frozen in place wearing kah-boy hat and shit kickers standing in the middle of the frekin' station. A beautiful NYC thing happened. Some local put their hand under my arm and asked if they could help me? Jorn was that you? << Seriously, I can't make this up. I'll never forget that REAL NYC people are kind and generous and in a hurry.
PS My dad got thrown out of a NYC deli, that takes some doing. Lots of good memories there.
Reminds me of a lovely NYC moment. I had just come back from Wyoming after quitting my job at the mine. My sister was living in Greenwich and needed some help building her apt. loft. I took the train, so far so good, but the trouble started when I got off the train. My (cough) uniquely wired brain wanted to see a vista in order to navigate, undergound I felt helpless. Rather than take a breath and read the symbols directing me to the correct subway line I just lost it. Frozen in place wearing kah-boy hat and shit kickers standing in the middle of the frekin' station. A beautiful NYC thing happened. Some local put their hand under my arm and asked if they could help me? Jorn was that you? << Seriously, I can't make this up. I'll never forget that REAL NYC people are kind and generous and in a hurry.
PS My dad got thrown out of a NYC deli, that takes some doing. Lots of good memories there.
Yeah that was me, but the other guy took your wallet.
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Re: Covid19
Originally Posted by vertical_doug
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