Tubulars vs Clinchers: Let the Games Begin

[Too Tall]

Thanks Jason Musgrave (custom bike builder and good guy) for reviving an old tubular tyre debate...are they safer? I've "liberated" text from the Serotta Forum where yrs. ago I posted a thread apre's coming home from a pretty scarey incident where my carbon wheel was crushed and the tubular remained intact. You want the truth? Tubulars saved my freakin' skin that day.
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How tubulars saved my life

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So you thought all the talk about tubulars being safer was BS?
Take a gander of what happened today...on the way to the forum.
I was finishing a ride with friends when on the last descent I was following 20 feet back traveling close to 40mph and heard my pal Winn yelling...looked in time to see a 12 foot wide by 12 foot across and 6 inch deep road repair in progress...sharp 6 inch drop to concrete and a 6 inch lip. I choose life and lofted the bike to get over the first lip and yanked the fr. wheel up to get over the second lip sacrificing the rear...it was tooooo fast to control two hops. The impact crushed the Zipp Pave and left the tire intact. The tire is 100% fine and was pumped to 100lbs even. All I have to say is if it was a clincher I'd be roasted...instant blowout and sketchy return to a stop if I was very talented and lucky. Check out the pics and note the pristine tire Amazing ain't it? The county is going to get a really really scarey photo in the mail monday with a letter that starts "F" you, strong letter to follow

Friends don't let friends ride clinchers.

[swoop]

comparing one's imagination about what might have happened to what actually did offers no real insight and has zero value. its the worst of what the internet offer in terms of information that has weight or meaning.

if it were a clincher i'd be roasted?

huh?
aren't we, by design.. smarter than this here?
....


two words: bunny hop.

[twowheels]

swooper

toots has enough experience to know that if he hit the obstacle with a clincher it would have pinch flat punctured. what comes next is the hypothetical part. i'm comfortable with the general observation that going downhill at 40 on a rear punctured clincher would have been worse than what the big man experienced.

i love tubulars. but almost always ride clinchers on the road and don't worry for a second about what might happen if i puncture.

over 20 years ago i recall a front tubular blowout on mulholland at 40+ approaching a corner while pulling some food out of a pocket and no drama at all. young? fearless? stupid? talented? lucky? who knows?

[swoop]

i just had a clincher go out at full throttle down a descent this week. fernwood of all things.. steep and hairy.
i'm alive.

who's to say it wouldn't have buckled the tubular and jammed it up into the brakes?

speculation is speculation. it has no weight.

i'm not a defender of clinchers... but i think there has to be a rationale beyond imagining the worst of what didn't happen for an intelligent conversation to unfold (pun). and i hold dr. toot to a high standard for this stuff.

sucks about the wheel!

"toot, you ignorant slut."

[Too Tall]

Noel why do you hate tall people? Let's have a beer.

OK, back to the topic.

[swoop]

Clinchers need love.

[jellysidedown]

In the lead story the tire held air because the rim failed, absorbing the energy of the impact. Reminded me that years ago in the Marlboro RR, one of my mates just in front of me wigged on a wet painted line in the turn at the bottom of the descent. He went straight into the curb on the outside, getting the front wheel up and over only to have his rear GEL 280 disintegrate flush with the chainstays. Out of the corner of my eye I saw him ride it out, actually staying up for about 20 feet while his chainring and rear derailleur DitchWitched the grass before he finally fell over. When it was all done the back tire was still inflated.

Those are just stories though. In this debate cost, convenience, performance, and safety are the primary issues, not necessarily in that order. Did I miss any? I'm putting "feel" in with performance, but I'll add that if you consider "feel" to be of high importance, then I hope the only spare tire you're carrying is the one under the saddle. I've ridden fat and I've ridden skinny and even half-inflated clinchers "feel" better than being 15 lbs over legitimate race weight.

For road racing I choose tubulars. Since most of us race on wheels costing $500-1200 each, it makes little overall cost difference whether you wrap them with a $45 tire or a $90 tire. Carbon aero tubular rims are significantly lighter than clinchers of equal depth/strength, so you get better performance.

Even if you are not using zoot wheels (cx, Battenkill, etc) in pack racing you are going to hit shit that you didn't see coming and any added cost/inconvenience of running tubulars is more than offset by the reduction in the chance of pinch flatting. Most of us are going to dnf or finish way otb if we flat in an amateur race, as fast wheel changes and successful chasebacks are pretty rare. You just wasted all the entry and travel monies by penny pinching with clinchers.

For training it's more complicated. I'll sort of buy the safety argument, which is one more reason I race tubulars, but a sudden catastrophic failure of any wheel component at high speed is scary no matter what you ride. Here in Mass I don't have a lot of white knuckle descents to worry about. No matter where you are though, it's important to remember on a training ride that nobody has checked the course and you don't have a lead vehicle. Please remind me of this the next time I'm in SoCal descending Westlake Blvd... I'll remind you when your apexing blind downhill lefts at D2R2. Tubulars won't fully absorb the energy of a head on impact with an oncoming pickup.

I train on clinchers for both CX and road. I can't see doing CX training on tubulars. Flats are too costly. For the road you have me thinking. I don't flat much. The cost gap has certainly narrowed. The low Crr clinchers that all the bike science guys rave about are almost as likely to suffer unrepairable damage as a tubular, and the price difference is not huge anymore. Convenience still heavily favors clinchers. Keeping even a modest stable of bikes equipped with tubulars, making sure they aren't rotting, have proper spares, etc, PITA. And then there is the two flats scenario. If everyone rode tubulars, this would not be so big of a deal, but the likelihood of someone else on your ride having a spare is quite low these days.

[acotts]

What gets me about tubulars is they come with a built in excuse for their failure.

I wont use tubulars for any course that requires real turning. Its a safety thing for me.

Clincher fail - Equipment's fault
Tubular Fail - User's fault

[Too Tall]

What gets me about tubulars is they come with a built in excuse for their failure.

I wont use tubulars for any course that requires real turning. Its a safety thing for me.

Clincher fail - Equipment's fault
Tubular Fail - User's fault

!!!! Without going into gory details...Come on I've seen lots of folks do a terrible job installing clichers....let's call it a draw on that one ;)

Jellyrollmorton, let me be the first to declare your third post the best third post VSalon has had evah. Rock on brother all good words.

Adding merit to my foolish ways (yuck yuck). Today I raced on the Velodrome using S. American track tubulars pumped to 140 and the ride was sublime. I looked real hard to find someone riding clinchers today. Tubulars rule the velodrome.

Score one more for tubulars.

F.D.L.F.R.C.

[acotts]

!!!! Without going into gory details...Come on I've seen lots of folks do a terrible job installing clichers....let's call it a draw on that one ;)

Jellyrollmorton, let me be the first to declare your third post the best third post VSalon has had evah. Rock on brother all good words.

Adding merit to my foolish ways (yuck yuck). Today I raced on the Velodrome using S. American track tubulars pumped to 140 and the ride was sublime. I looked real hard to find someone riding clinchers today. Tubulars rule the velodrome.

Score one more for tubulars.


F.D.L.F.R.C.

I do agree with you.

But I hope you understand my frustration with the fact that if a tire gets rolled, then you are automatically an idiot for not being able to glue a tire. Or if you had it professionally done, then you need a new shop, etc. Its never the tires fault.

Despite a long history of tubulars coming off rims, the only reason it ever happens is because the rider is stupid. Its never anything else—ever. The notion that it may not be a perfect system is blasphemy.

And it seems like most folks here admit that they are not perfect. But many wont.

Not only that, but it opens the door for every old stodgy racer to perform a full critique of your cycling creds. It puts you on the defense.

It really gets my goat.

I guess it’s a classic tradition vs technology argument. I come from a different era. Clinchers have always been good during my cycling lifetime.

I rolled my last tubular doing warmups in a parking lot, practicing my turns. I was going about 10 mph. Tires were at 120 psi. I banged up my hip so much that it kept me off the bike for like 3 weeks. So I am bitter. I through some latex tubes in my clinchers and I am never looking back.

I would totally feel fine riding tubulars in a velodrome, in a triathlon or a time trial. Just not in a road race or crit as I feel I hit the corners way too hard for tubulars.

Im not anti-tubular. I just wont use them myself. I puts a twinge of fear in my mind that I dont need.

[twowheels]

I do agree with you.

But I hope you understand my frustration with the fact that if a tire gets rolled, then you are automatically an idiot for not being able to glue a tire. Or if you had it professionally done, then you need a new shop, etc. Its never the tires fault.

Despite a long history of tubulars coming off rims, the only reason it ever happens is because the rider is stupid. Its never anything else—ever. The notion that it may not be a perfect system is blasphemy.

And it seems like most folks here admit that they are not perfect. But many wont.

Not only that, but it opens the door for every old stodgy racer to perform a full critique of your cycling creds. It puts you on the defense.

It really gets my goat.

I guess it’s a classic tradition vs technology argument. I come from a different era. Clinchers have always been good during my cycling lifetime.

I rolled my last tubular doing warmups in a parking lot, practicing my turns. I was going about 10 mph. Tires were at 120 psi. I banged up my hip so much that it kept me off the bike for like 3 weeks. So I am bitter. I through some latex tubes in my clinchers and I am never looking back.

I would totally feel fine riding tubulars in a velodrome, in a triathlon or a time trial. Just not in a road race or crit as I feel I hit the corners way too hard for tubulars.

Im not anti-tubular. I just wont use them myself. I puts a twinge of fear in my mind that I dont need.

acotts--

hate to say it but if you rolled a tubular at 10 mph in a parking lot then, well, never mind.....

lets just say it was not caused by a defect in the tire.

[Too Tall]

I do agree with you.

But I hope you understand my frustration with the fact that if a tire gets rolled, then you are automatically an idiot for not being able to glue a tire. Or if you had it professionally done, then you need a new shop, etc. Its never the tires fault.

Despite a long history of tubulars coming off rims, the only reason it ever happens is because the rider is stupid. Its never anything else—ever. The notion that it may not be a perfect system is blasphemy.

And it seems like most folks here admit that they are not perfect. But many wont.

Not only that, but it opens the door for every old stodgy racer to perform a full critique of your cycling creds. It puts you on the defense.

It really gets my goat.

I guess it’s a classic tradition vs technology argument. I come from a different era. Clinchers have always been good during my cycling lifetime.

I rolled my last tubular doing warmups in a parking lot, practicing my turns. I was going about 10 mph. Tires were at 120 psi. I banged up my hip so much that it kept me off the bike for like 3 weeks. So I am bitter. I through some latex tubes in my clinchers and I am never looking back.

I would totally feel fine riding tubulars in a velodrome, in a triathlon or a time trial. Just not in a road race or crit as I feel I hit the corners way too hard for tubulars.

Im not anti-tubular. I just wont use them myself. I puts a twinge of fear in my mind that I dont need.

As Phil would say "he's lost his bottle and does not know where it's gone". Sorry mate, if you lived near me I'd glue your wheels for you and than you could rest your mind when diving into corners. My pact to you. Anytime brother.