Pandemic Ethics

[doomridesout]

My wife and our two daughters are moving back north at the end of this month, at long last, for good. We've been moving between Humboldt County and the central valley for nearly five years as I did law school and pursued career opportunities. Our older daughter is now three, our younger daughter was born in April.

My parents live in the Midwest. They are desperate to see their new granddaughter. They'd planned to come visit in April but COVID-19 intervened. They just bought a small camper and are planning a five day self-contained road trip to come visit us once we're settled in. We will be living in one of the smallest incorporated cities in California, population approximately 400. We are ready to join the community and want to be good neighbors in a small town.

I increasingly feel like this is both risky and potentially unethical.

Although I trust my parents to do their best to mitigate risk and stay self-contained, there are no guarantees-- it's a five day drive with mountain driving they're unfamiliar with, and my dad is going to be 70 this year. They have not been camper shell people in the past. They'll be fully quarantined for at least 10 days before they leave, and we'll have at least ten days after the move (where we incur our own risks associated with travel and using a moving company) to be on full isolation too. I know fourteen would be better... and we'll push for that.

More to the point, I am firmly convinced the pandemic is running out of control in this country because Americans are steadfast in their ability to make exceptions for themselves. There is no exception for having your heart in the right place. There's no gold star for being mostly safe. Staying home is the only truly safe option.

They will be staying at an RV park a mile from our new house, but they'll be coming over every day. Our village is a tourist town and there will inevitably be tourists there-- but I wish we didn't have to contribute. I don't want to send the message that we are cavalier with our neighbors' health.

Don't get me wrong, I am absolutely champing at the bit to have my parents hold the new baby. It's the stuff of life. I have a great relationship with my parents and miss them fiercely. But isn't this plan just the optimistic bias? I trust my parents to be smart if everything goes smoothly, but the stakes of things that can go sideways on road trips have gone up exponentially. And doesn't this send the wrong message to the community?

Discuss.

[Mabouya]

Would they be willing to wait until the number of new C-19 cases is at least down to where it was in June and declining again? Now really doesn't seem to me to be the right time for discretionary travel.

[monadnocky]

I have no insight or answers to your dilemma. But I have noticed a steady slip of vigilance as well, even among those people who (ostensibly) take this stuff really seriously. And in most of the cases I can think of, it involves grandparents wanting to see their grandchildren. One example is a friend of mine with two 6ish year old children and grandparents in Florida. Grandparents are kind, VERY smart people who are aghast at the response of the current administration, and are disciplined when it comes to distancing and masking.

They were on the eve of flying up to Boston in order to see their grandchildren (my friend just didn't have the heart to say no) when they discovered that their other, local (in Florida) grandchild's nanny tested positive. They both see this grandchild every day. Thank goodness, they decided - the day before the trip was planned - to cancel their trip up north.

I understand that we think that WE are the exception, I guess. But man, if this type of slippage is occurring after only a few months, it's going to be a rough ride, even for healthier enclaves of the country like New England.

[guido]

Would they be willing to wait until the number of new C-19 cases is at least down to where it was in June and declining again? Now really doesn't seem to me to be the right time for discretionary travel.

I completely agree. Cases are out of control because everyone thinks their actions will have no effect, but everyone's actions are the collective action. And that is going the wrong way...

[Clean39T]

Cases are out of control because everyone thinks their actions will have no effect, but everyone's actions are the collective action. And that is going the wrong way...

From climate change to pandemics, we humans are not good at extrapolating the impact of daily local decisions on global outcomes. Most don't even think about it. I (un)fortunately am grounded in systems-thinking and can't not see it. It started early too - I remember a book I had around age five that tried to teach the lesson of "what if everyone threw their sucker stick on the ground" - stock/flow lessons at a young age.

My parents live 3.5 miles away. Because I can not trust that they are distancing appropriately (at the same level my wife and I are) we can't have a #quaranteam . So I have only seen them for short periods - with masks on, sitting in the backyard, 15 feet away - no touching, no bathrooms, no drinks. It's not ideal. There is loss.

At least in this modern era we have face-time, cell phones - and a reasonable expectation that in a year or two, things will improve. Historically, people have dealt with much worse.

Ultimately it is up to you to decide your risk tolerance and what feels right.

The fact that you are even asking the question shows a level of empathy and responsibility that most seem not to possess in this country. So chapeau for that.

[alexstar]

Lotta "ifs" involved. It wouldn't be worth the risks to me, but I am a generally a risk-averse person. My worst nightmare is somehow transmitting COVID to a friend or loved one. I'm glad that you and yours are taking this seriously, though. I would love to say that everything would probably be just fine, but obviously there are no guarantees. Best of luck.

[bigbill]

My son is traveling from Las Vegas to Baltimore tomorrow morning to return to school (Annapolis). He has a stack of masks, he's flying Southwest which is keeping the middle seat open, and will be tested upon arrival at USNA and put in quarantine regardless of the initial test results. I'm glad the Naval Academy is taking these steps to bring students back. The school is a base with security gates and a perimeter fence/wall, the entire place can be quarantined. Classes will initially be online, meals will be spread out for social distancing.

[j44ke]

NYC had a series of fatalities of young children (inflammatory syndrome.) I don't believe that doctors have sorted out the reasons for the severity of these cases. I do know that babies under 12 months can be more prone to severe illness if they are infected by covid19. That might be your ask - give her a year to get her immunities sorted. At least it could be part of request that if they come visit, they will have to abide by rules of contact that will be safest for your daughter and thus allow you to relax and enjoy their visit. You decide what those rules are.

And as VerticalDoug says, things are going to change a lot in the next several weeks.

Pretty good run down on children and covid19 here from the Mayo Clinic. COVID-19 (coronavirus) in babies and children - Mayo Clinic

It is one of those things where if there are no problems then there are no problems. Everyone is golden. But if there are problems, solving the current awkwardness may seem simple in retrospect.

[claritycycler]

... Cases are out of control because everyone thinks their actions will have no effect, but everyone's actions are the collective action. And that is going the wrong way...

Undeniable.

[j44ke]

Just to add - you aren't reducing risk for your family by creating hardship for your parents. Several times in NYS, asymptomatic children have been the initial spreaders. So if you ask your parents not to come, it is just as much (if not more) about their health and wellbeing as it is any risk they will bring anything into your house. You are reducing risk for everyone concerned.

At least 16 sick after coronavirus exposure at DeWitt in-home day care: ‘Take this seriously ... stay home if sick at all''' - syracuse.com

Earlier in the epidemic, a friend went to retrieve her daughter from college after it shut due to covid19. Her parents live in the same town, so she stayed in their house while helping her daughter pack. A week later her father developed symptoms for covid19 and died shortly afterwards. She was asymptomatic.

Just trying to say this stuff happens.

[BBB]

The fact that there is a two page debate about pandemic ethics is a testament to a lack of leadership throughout. While I hesitate to make this into a political thread, the ins and outs of cross-border travel during a pandemic really shouldn't be up for debate. Faced with a spike in cases, cross-border travel should be stopped until such time as the numbers are brought back under control. That doesn't seem to be the case in the US at the moment. Regrettably there does not seem to be any credible leadership in the US to enable such steps to be taken. Instead there is I hope it will go away or we are leading the world and it's 99% harmless. In other words, complete tripe.

I get people want to see family and that lockdowns are hard. But, unfortunately this is the price that will have to be paid until the thing is brought under control. It's not presently under control in the US. The graph in this thread illustrates this well.

We are presently under a second lockdown and while it is not a great deal of fun, it is for the best in the long run.

I'm not so sure it is a question of ethics, but more one of common sense (noting there is no common sense coming out of Washington). With the numbers of cases rising, cross-border travel to see grandkids should be put on hold. IMO of course.

[deano]

Don't get me wrong, I am absolutely champing at the bit to have my parents hold the new baby. It's the stuff of life. I have a great relationship with my parents and miss them fiercely. But isn't this plan just the optimistic bias? I trust my parents to be smart if everything goes smoothly, but the stakes of things that can go sideways on road trips have gone up exponentially. And doesn't this send the wrong message to the community?

Discuss.

I'm no professional ethicist, but I have played one on TV. I will set aside your last question because that is one of the optics of the scenario and if something is itself morally justifiable or not morally justifiable, does it much matter how it appears? Another question for another day.

As you point out, everything involved is the stuff of life. That is, if you separate out each of the individual acts -- driving a camper, holding a baby, etc. -- none of them, in my view, is intrinsically morally fraught even in view of the circumstance of a global pandemic. If you agree with that, then it comes down to risk versus benefit. If you think your parents can pilot the camper, if you feel you can be faithful about isolating in advance of their visit (with their age, I would think they would be most in danger given that you have the baby out and your wife isn't, say in the first trimester), and if you feel they are freely and rationally making the choice themselves to come without undue pressure from you, that is to say, if you believe everyone is going to be faithful to the plan you laid out above, which seems to include all the reasonable steps one would take in light of the specter of COVID-19, I would say go for it.

Another way to slice it: I'm a young parent, too, Willie, and I've talked to so many other young families in my neighborhood who are dealing with situations with their kids that make me really sad -- behavioral issues like thumb-sucking, bed-wetting, etc. -- that began pretty much with the onset of the lockdowns when suddenly nobody is allowed to see anybody. Just anecdotes, but at some point, in individual scenarios like this, not saying for all of society, the risk of harm to small corners of the social tapestry, like the family, friend circles, etc., is outdistanced by the way people need each other. Let them grandparents hold that baby.

[Too Tall]

I love listening to Zambenini do his thing. Thanks bud, the place is better with you.

Consider having them "camp" in your driveway. Do you have two bathrooms?

My camping cohorts have discussed the mechanics of this ad nauseum and the one single thing that makes campgrounds more dangerous than anyplace I'd want to go are communal bathrooms.

Despite the want I'd lean twords creating a so called "bubble" within the confines of your property.

[TMB]

I love listening to Zambenini do his thing. Thanks bud, the place is better with you.

Consider having them "camp" in your driveway. Do you have two bathrooms?

My camping cohorts have discussed the mechanics of this ad nauseum and the one single thing that makes campgrounds more dangerous than anyplace I'd want to go are communal bathrooms.

Despite the want I'd lean twords creating a so called "bubble" within the confines of your property.

Bathrooms. My family have been trying to convince me to get the motor home out this summer. There is no way I am going somewhere to share a bathroom with a bunch of people I know nothing about.

They seems to me to be blowing your bubble apart - forever.

[Doug Fattic]

Last week my wife and I had a wonderful visit in our home with our daughter and son-in-law and their 4 month old baby. They drove from CO to MI to see us and show off our new (and only) grandchild. It was amazing to be able to hold the baby and see it play and interact with everyone. Before they came we were very careful to limit our outside the house exposure. During their trip they took precautions. Our son-in-law is a doctor so he understands risks.

There is a kind of joy that comes with being with a new grandchild that doesn't compare with anything else. If everyone does their best to limit people to people contact then the chances are not totally eliminated but are within an acceptable range - just like riding a bicycle on a quiet road may still have a teenage driver texting. It would be a shame for your parents to miss out on the experience and bonding of being with a new grandchild. And for your child to not be able to feel the unconditional love of their grandparents. Just use common sense and limit the risks.

[vertical_doug]

I see no need to make a decision now. It sounds like you have a few weeks before they leave, at the rate things are progressing, no telling how the landscape looks in 3 weeks.
You said it is a tourist town, so if tourists are already passing through, I see no need to exclude your parents.

1. Move get settled
2. see the town mood versus tourists
3. see latest coronavirus spread and latest health advisories.
4. Make a decision at the time

- Depending on the hub, if your parents can fly direct, and Airlines up the requirement for facemasks etc, I wouldn't categorically rule out flying. There is a lot to be said for a few hours in a mask, gloves and glasses versus a multi-day road trip. I just check your parents are comfortable wearing a N95 mask for a few hours .

What we really need in the US is better contact tracing. If we had that, you'd be able to pin point the risky behaviors and avoid those.

In Korea, Japan and other countries where they are seriously contact tracing, the issue time again and again point to nightclubs, pubs and parties without social distancing. I have not seen any contact tracing in other countries blaming clusters on an airline flight.

[dogrange]

Seems that there are mostly no or very few cases of transmission from contact out of doors. Maybe not so hard to have grandparents stay in their camper at your place and appropriately distance during your visit.