Small frames: high trail or toe overlap?

[fpavao]

Hello,

just wondering what do you guys prefer when making very small road frames, for 700c tires: a slacker HT angle (affecting trail for a road fork) or just learn to live with a lot of toe overlap?

I don't mind toe overlap, as I'm short myself and my personal bikes usually have some, but for a urban fixed gear I find it very annoying, sometimes dangerous.

Regards.

(forgot to say: I've made a frame for a very short guy, about 1,60m I think, without toe overlap. The resulting trail was about 70mm or something like that. I rode the bike to test it and found it terrible, decided to not do it again. Nevertheless, the guy liked the bike and didn't found anything wrong with it.)

[Eric Estlund]

How small are you talking? Smaller wheels are always an option.

[Curt Goodrich]

Very general rule of thumb- As the bike gets smaller the seat angle gets steeper, the head angle gets slacker and fork rake increases. This keeps the front center within the normal range.

[blasdelf]

As the bike gets smaller the seat angle gets steeper

why bother when you're designing a bike for an actual person and not for a marketable size chart?

the front-center is the front-center, the reach is the reach, the STA affects neither

[Curt Goodrich]

why bother when you're designing a bike for an actual person and not for a marketable size chart?

the front-center is the front-center, the reach is the reach, the STA affects neither

I disagree but you are always welcome to build your bikes the way you wish. Your quote missed my first five words which are pertinent.
Rule of thumb - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[steve garro]

why bother when you're designing a bike for an actual person and not for a marketable size chart?

the front-center is the front-center, the reach is the reach, the STA affects neither

Actually, with a fixed top tube length as you increase the ST* the front center increases.
CG knows a thing or two about building frames.
- Garro.

[Gattonero]

Also, for small riders 170 or 165mm cranks may help a little

[drwelby]

Actually, with a fixed top tube length as you increase the ST* the front center increases.

Why would you fix the top tube length?