The Vaccine Thread

[Too Tall]

Without further ado, let's get it on/in.

Also, please add to the anonymous survey.

[ZenNMotion]

Having worked for a brief few years as a cog in a pharmaceutical lab, I have a particular perspective on the approval process- mostly I have a sense of what is in many ways a messy process that's not just about the data, and I don't entirely trust it given the urgency, $$$, and politics that are driving it. I applaud the achievement of bringing it (them) to market quickly but I'll remain cautious as to when I'll stand in line, I'm very privileged to be in a place where I can work from home indefinitely (at least the next 12 months), venture out for food shopping at slow hours, enjoy my own cooking, and have an incredible choice of outdoor playgrounds within a couple hours' drive, and have lots of experience entertaining myself in difficult circumstances. Plus, I definitely look better wearing a mask than not. So I'll wait it out for a while, until/unless there's a work or family emergency that compels airline travel and/or hotels. That said, the current trends and numbers freak me out, we're in a much worse place now than we were through the Spring and Summer, mostly because we (the US, mostly, but not only) weren't able to get our collective sh*t together for a couple of months to keep the genie mostly bottled, now we're way beyond that, so a vaccination choice may be dictated by the coming tsunami.

[caleb]

I'm expecting to get it right away.

I haven't heard anything from my employer yet, but I fully expect being vaccinated (or demonstrating antibodies) will be a condition of continued employment pretty quickly.

[Saab2000]

I expect to take it as soon as practical and available to my demographic. Additionally, it will likely be part of my employment situation but since I’m out on a leave of absence it’s a bit moot.

I’m not likely to be in the first wave anyway, so it doesn’t matter.

Vaccine science seems more or less settled so yes, I expect to be on board, and relatively quickly as it becomes available.

Vaccination among airline employees has significant precedent so this isn’t uncharted territory.

[monadnocky]

My logic, at this time:

Risks of perceived permanent disability or death due to COVID > Risks of perceived disability or death due to adverse vaccine reactions

I'll be taking the jab as soon as reasonably possible. Like Zen, I, too, used to be a cog in the pharma machine, and I don't not trust them, nor do I trust them, but I have a basic understanding of how the FDA operates (at least in terms of new drug approvals) and while it's not rock-solid, it's p. good.

[jimcav]

the current testing can account for a 1/10,000 serious adverse event at a high probability level--meaning the testing so far has shown it is safe; and IF there are any serious adverse side effects they will become known only as enough individuals get the vaccine to reveal effects at the 1/100,000 or 1 in a million rate etc. By the time I am eligible, I estimate 50-million Americans will have had the vaccine, and I plan to get it unless something significant occurs in the post-EUA data. EAU = emergency use authorization

[mzilliox]

My logic, at this time:

Risks of perceived permanent disability or death due to COVID > Risks of perceived disability or death due to adverse vaccine reactions

I'll be taking the jab as soon as reasonably possible. Like Zen, I, too, used to be a cog in the pharma machine, and I don't not trust them, nor do I trust them, but I have a basic understanding of how the FDA operates (at least in terms of new drug approvals) and while it's not rock-solid, it's p. good.

Right? Vaccines are not drugs, we've been doing vaccines for a long while in science. its pretty basic stuff.
Ill get it asap, My wife will have it by years end. symbolically she will be the "first" in our county.

[Tom]

I'll hold until the people that need it more than me are taken care of. I'm not terribly concerned about the RNA vaccines side effects, my brother and sister in law are RNA scientists. They think the Moderna one is very promising and are participating in the Pfizer clinical trials. As a lay person (in my case that's French for 'dumbass') I am a little skeptical of the sample size and pace but if the people working in hospitals and grocery stores and such can be set up for free I'll get in line behind them and pay full retail.

[Tom]

That's an interesting idea, administer an antibody test to everyone at the same time they get vaccinated. It would be very interesting to get a good sample to know how many people appear to have been sick and it wasn't definitive. I still think everyone who can should get vaccinated, even with antibodies a belt and suspenders approach can't hurt.

[holliscx]

Not trying to toot the no horn at all but genuinely curious what would the worst case scenario be if something terrible came of this down the road? Growing up I always heard children of thalidomide but what are some of the dark stories about vaccines or drugs gone wrong? I bet there are some unbelievable stories within the pharmaceutical industry because people dying in trials is real, right? If anyone wants to enlighten me what is the worst case scenario for the C19 vaccine?

There was an interesting article in the NYT yesterday about the trial participants who received the placebo now wishing to receive the vaccine and the ethics of this for it would curtail the trial looking at long term side effects or outcomes. I've never wrapped my head around this but I think anyone who wishes to participate in a trial should complete it. Isn't it too convenient to opt out doesn't that null the whole point of participating in a trial? Obviously, a fine line for someone who is vulnerable but raises a lot of interesting questions.

[vertical_doug]

Not trying to toot the no horn at all but genuinely curious what would the worst case scenario be if something terrible came of this down the road? Growing up I always heard children of thalidomide but what are some of the dark stories about vaccines or drugs gone wrong? I bet there are some unbelievable stories within the pharmaceutical industry because people dying in trials is real, right? If anyone wants to enlighten me what is the worst case scenario for the C19 vaccine?

There was an interesting article in the NYT yesterday about the trial participants who received the placebo now wishing to receive the vaccine and the ethics of this for it would curtail the trial looking at long term side effects or outcomes. I've never wrapped my head around this but I think anyone who wishes to participate in a trial should complete it. Isn't it too convenient to opt out doesn't that null the whole point of participating in a trial? Obviously, a fine line for someone who is vulnerable but raises a lot of interesting questions.

FDA has a very thorough compliance/oversight program for clinical investigations and human subjects. Any adverse results are reported. All the companies announcing vaccine programs currently are also listed on stock exchanges, they have a secondary responsibility to file any issues with SEC for shareholders information.

I have an investment in a VC company that has reported adverse clinical result in a human trials related to oncology. The report is for the most part immediate, and the program goes on hold while the FDA conducts an investigation. It takes however long it takes. This is not something people in the pharma community will mess with unless they want to end in disbarment and/or prison. If you consider the high profile global focus of COVID Vaccine, anyone that monkeyed with data is going into a dark hole with no key.

Thalidomide was 60 years ago, and part of the problem was the world was not as global as it is now so no one was seeing the global picture. I think procedure and scrutiny in place now is much more robust.

Obviously, there are still issues with pharma companies as Purdue showed with Oxy. But this typically is with oversubscribing or stretching the usage beyond approved areas which is a sales/marketing issue. Vaccines have a much more narrow focus here, so I don't think you will find any cowboys.

(If you listen to the fine print in a pharm drug commercial in the US, every possible side effect is quickly listed. )

[ides1056]

This is worth reading: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/04/u...gtype=Homepage

I have not had the flu in decades, maybe three. When my wife came down with Covid symptoms in February I took care of her but did not get sick. By contrast three people she came into contact with did. We both tested negative for antibodies.

I had shingles years ago. It felt like a pulled abdominal muscle, but as soon as I saw the lesions I knew and called my doctor whose primary concern was the pain. I told her this wasn't pain, pain is when you want to throw up. It cleared up fairly quickly.

My response to the two shots I had yesterday was very unpleasant. Basically I felt like I had the flu overnight, and I will go slowly today because I am whacked.

Every doctor I know has gotten the shingles vaccine as soon as they could, and flu shots as well because of the work they do. I followed suit.

[davids]

Re the Shingles vaccine: I was very happy to be vaccinated, as every story I've ever heard from someone who's contracted it has been horrific. I had a significant reaction to both my doses - felt like I had the flu for about 24 hours both times. But I knew it was just my reaction to the vaccine, so I curled up with a book and rode it out.

I've been getting an annual flu shot for over 20 years. I've still had the flu a few times even with the vaccines, and I understand why. But I will always get my annual flu shot. Always.

[j44ke]

Yeah, this is what I thought.

Although Dr. Walensky expressed confidence that the government will get an increasing amount of vaccine supply by the end of March, she said the Biden administration had inherited a vaccine distribution debacle from his predecessor, Donald Trump. "One of the biggest problems we have now is I can't tell you how much vaccine we have," Dr. Walensky said. "And if I can't tell it to you, then I can't tell it to the governors and the state health officials. If they don't know how much vaccine they're getting, not just this week but next week and the week after, they can't plan."

From - https://gothamist.com/news/coronavir...-currently-has

[Clean39T]

(If you listen to the fine print in a pharm drug commercial in the US, every possible side effect is quickly listed. )

I always figured that was to prevent someone from suing them for side effects....no? Some of the side-effects you hear on TV sound way worse than what they are trying to cure..

[GeneK]

I always figured that was to prevent someone from suing them for side effects....no? Some of the side-effects you hear on TV sound way worse than what they are trying to cure..

No doubt that’s the intent. I can assure you, as a surgeon, that clearly and explicitly explaining the risks of an operation in NO way protects from lawsuits when that complication occurs.

[Clean39T]

Come on, man.

I'm with Tim. Most idiots think "I had the flu, whatever...can't be that bad, didn't kill Trump..." The stronger the public messaging the better. OR state has been running some great ads and has billboards all over the state that drive home the stupidity of holiday gatherings and how little we are being asked to do here to slow the spread. Ever see cigarette packaging outside of the US? Sometimes a little crude truth goes a long ways.

[beeatnik]

I'm with Tim. Most idiots think "I had the flu, whatever...can't be that bad, didn't kill Trump..." The stronger the public messaging the better. OR state has been running some great ads and has billboards all over the state that drive home the stupidity of holiday gatherings and how little we are being asked to do here to slow the spread. Ever see cigarette packaging outside of the US? Sometimes a little crude truth goes a long ways.

I've been on the other side of the ICU window during intubation. I've had medical power of attorney. I've made the end of life decision. I'd prefer if Tim would make his point with a bit more tact.

Why does it feel as if the medical establishment just discovered the concept of group dynamics?

[Clyde]

Thanks for your commentary. I've been up close to the whole covid thing since it started, and in the ED we are the ones who get the pt's first then stabilize them then send them to the floor if they make it that far. I'm rough around the edges for sure. We are not always certain of what we are dealing with until the test result show which use to be a couple days, now it's down to a few hours. The real heroes are the ICU RN's who are sometimes around it their whole shifts, where as we never know what's coming through the door. It's not been a lot a very enjoyable period of time. But we don't get to choose those things. It just happens and we deal with it.

[Clean39T]

I've been on the other side of the ICU window during intubation. I've had medical power of attorney. I've made the end of life decision. I'd prefer if Tim would make his point with a bit more tact.

Why does it feel as if the medical establishment just discovered the concept of group dynamics?

I think there was just some lost-in-translation here. I'm of course no fan of any of this, or of diminishing the gravity of what people are going through. I was simply saying some strong doses of the reality of this situation for the people hit hardest by it might slap some sense into the deniers.

And Beat, man, I'm sorry for what you've had to go through there. I wouldn't wish that on anyone - and really hope this country can wake up and start taking care of its people.