Bikes: How they are ridden Part II

[davids]

...I think most people who have adopted a "bars level with the saddle" position have done so consciously and for a worthwhile purpose, not out of ignorance.

This doesn't jibe with my experience. Which, in a nutshell, is this:

I have never raced. I always enjoyed riding a bike but never took it seriously until about seven years ago. I got a mountain bike, hooked up with a group of riders through a friend and started falling in love with it. About a year later the same group went out on the road. I dragged my old racing bike out of the basement and found that I loved riding on the road even more than in the woods. I found other people to ride with. I found the old Kahnua/Serotta forum. I started learning more about bikes, about the sport of cycling and about riding. I ride as much as I can now and I aspire to get faster, stronger, and more skillful.

I regularly ride with a bunch of middle-aged folks who are a lot like me (only less obsessed with the minutea of the sport). If you asked any one of them about their cycling goals, I think they would align with mine - to be faster, stronger, and more skillful. It doesn't matter that they take it less seriously than I do - They want to be better cyclists.

A lot of them ride fasterbackwards style bikes. These are not people who are injured or frail, they're active and healthy, and most are in pretty good physical shape. I would wager a lot of money that they did not consciously and knowingly choose their bike set-ups. Someone in a bike store made that decision for them. And they live with it because they don't know any better.

This here forum is a nice little resource so that folks who are interested and motivated can know better.

[Bike Rider]

This doesn't jibe with my experience. Which, in a nutshell, is this:

........A lot of them ride fasterbackwards style bikes. These are not people who are injured or frail, they're active and healthy, and most are in pretty good physical shape. I would wager a lot of money that they did not consciously and knowingly choose their bike set-ups. Someone in a bike store made that decision for them. And they live with it because they don't know any better.

This here forum is a nice little resource so that folks who are interested and motivated can know better.

You post exemplifies what makes discussion like this so damn difficult over the internet. I suspect that in a discussion like this, very few of us are talking about the same thing. We certainly are not using the same reference point.

I agree 100% with you that the vast majority of folks riding around on fasterbackwards bikes did not get there consciously. The average Bike Rider/cyclist that we encounter on the street has very little knowledge of bike, fit, position etc. However, they often want to ride as fast as the can. I assume that most of the post that get folks like Sandy (and myself at times) riled up is focused at these people.

On the flip side, the average cyclist/BikeRider that is spending time on this or any other cycling forum, most likely has established their bike fit very consciousy. Those on FasterBackwards bike may have physical issue or quite often it maybe that they are very content with their cycling.

It's hard (if not impossible) to know who is talking about who and what frame of reference they are using.

Added to that, some people are just complete ARB's. Again, point of reference matters.

[rphetteplace]

I love my bikes and how they ride, but if someone with knowledge looked at my fit/position and told me something that would help my comfort/efficiency I'd say thanks and buy them a beer and not b!tch about them on the internet.

[WadePatton]

Heckfire and dodge the torpedoes. I started riding in the mid 80's, road then trails. My position/fit was a happy accident of LBS and experienced rider input-and worked splendidly for many years. I've learned more about real fit and position in the last three years _right here on the interweb_ and in a few books, than I ever imagined was possible. I didn't get "serious" until the late 90's--and now I'm 2x as serious as ever and learning more every day.

Thanks and beers to those lifers who share their vast wisdom here and otherwise. When I get a little better, I'll be looking up some of the great folks here for one on one learnin'.

Rock on.

[taylorj]

I love my bikes and how they ride, but if someone with knowledge looked at my fit/position and told me something that would help my comfort/efficiency I'd say thanks and buy them a beer and not b!tch about them on the internet.

Precisely!

[Jonathan]

A lot of them ride fasterbackwards style bikes. These are not people who are injured or frail, they're active and healthy, and most are in pretty good physical shape. I would wager a lot of money that they did not consciously and knowingly choose their bike set-ups. Someone in a bike store made that decision for them. And they live with it because they don't know any better.

This here forum is a nice little resource so that folks who are interested and motivated can know better.

I agree and I don't think it's a slam on the lbs. Good bike shops have years of experience getting people out on bikes. Most are aware that many or most of the bikes they sell will be hanging with cobwebs in a few years too so it's important to get someone comfy on the first few rides. It's what happens after the first few rides that we're discussing.

When I see a rando bike ridden by an experience rider who does rando's I always see an efficient position from my perspective. Performance is performance and experienced riders look for the most efficient way to go about pedaling the bike. I'm not sure what everyone is arguing about.

[davids]

I agree and I don't think it's a slam on the lbs. Good bike shops have years of experience getting people out on bikes. Most are aware that many or most of the bikes they sell will be hanging with cobwebs in a few years too so it's important to get someone comfy on the first few rides. It's what happens after the first few rides that we're discussing.

So true.

I think, too, that shops tend to be deferential to their customers, and to give customers what they think want. And that's probably a good business strategy for most of their customers.

In fact, now that I think about it, that's exactly what the shop that first built up my Seven did when they were dealing with me. I had bought the frame on eBay, and I took it to a local shop (with an excellent rep) to buy the components and get it built up. I ended up with a 17 degree stem and a triple, because the fitter (also someone with an excellent rep) followed my lead - I clearly remember thinking, "Well, I'm getting older. I'd better go with something conservative." And the fitter listened to me and gave me what I thought I wanted.

It took me a year to replace the stem and lower my bars, and that triple set-up was my regular ride for almost three years. If I hadn't started listening to more experienced riders, I wonder if I'd have ever changed a thing.

[swoop]

really, i think the conversation is boorish and stupid because the folks that get it already get it, and it isn't verbal, and the folks that don't get it don't know it exists so it doesn't matter, and the ones that are hurt by it have other issues to the extent that you cant have the conversation wit them because it becomes some sort of insult or rejection. and the folks that have the light on inside will seek it out and walk down the path propelled by their own curiosity.

but really, who cares?


if you really want to talk about something come tell me why i think all my lesbian friends are so damn hot lately?

and as an aside. i'm putting my moderator cap on and when folks start to take this kind of conversation and fold it into a fighting for the sake of fighting or getting wounded.. i'll drop them a note and kill their comment... because in the end it slimes this place and the fumes make it uninhabitable here. i speak for myself in saying so.... but i have the button and i'll use it until i don't have it.

there's never a need for the conversation to become that thing on a bike message board. if anyone has an issue with that call me... please feel welcome.310 968. 2706. i'll only answer if the cell number is unblocked.

[Sandy]

I think that most all of what you say is correct. One must realize that there are a zillion cyclists who are riding with relatively little actual saddle time. As they ride more and evolve more as a cyclist/rider, or whatever anyone wants to call it, they become better in tune with their own body, what works for them and what does not. They can feel the difference in changes that they had no understanding or sensitivity of previously- saddle height, or a fore/aft saddle position change, or change in stem height or rise,....Receiving insight from someone who has gone through the evolutionary process of becoming a better rider certainly will help them, not only obtain a better fit, but ultimately become a better cyclist and enjoy cycling more. Those who possess experience in fitting cyclists and are good at it, can be profoundly helpful. Those folks aren't born that way. They had to experience it, understand it, have insight into it, and be able to teach it to those who want to learn it.

As one becomes better fit, rides more, and becomes better as a cyclist, that person becomes more discriminating and sensitive to what works and what does not work for their improvement. Add some insight from someone who has been there and has done that, some real dedication on part of both, and bingo, you get a better fit and improved cyclist.

Clearly you have evolved as a cyclist as described above.

There are however many exceptions relative to saddle versus handlebar height. I have a friend who rides with his handlebar slightly above his saddle. He was fit by Tom Kellogg at the barn for a race type ti frameset. He works very hard at his cycling all year round and has improved greatly. He has a well structured all year program in place. Why are his bars so high? Because of a neck problem.

Clearly as one evolves from a complete novice to whatever level one ultimately reaches, there are many changes that occur in the cyclist, including but not limited to, a change in position on the bike and how the bike is designed for whatever purpose it is being used.

The brand new novice cyclist does not have a clue, and where the handlebar is relative to saddle is probably meaningless to most at that stage of cycling. Those who know better can and do help immeasurably in the process of becoming better.



Sandy

[davids]

Sandy,

Of course there are exceptions, and your friend with the neck problem is clearly one of them.

TiDesigns once suggested to me that this is a touchy topic because "everybody knows how to ride a bike." Almost all of us picked up the basics as kids and you know how the cliché goes... So when someone suggests that there might be more to riding a bike, that they're not doing it correctly, or that their bike could be set up better, folks feel some cognitive dissonance. I think that's a valuable insight.

All I know is that I was open to hearing the critiques, and that I'm a better rider for it.

[flick]

My neck was givin problems in the drops, now I wear shooting glasses which ride higher on the face,roll my eyes up more,not a big deal, less craning of the neck, neck problem gone.

[Sandy]

Sandy,

Of course there are exceptions, and your friend with the neck problem is clearly one of them.

TiDesigns once suggested to me that this is a touchy topic because "everybody knows how to ride a bike." Almost all of us picked up the basics as kids and you know how the cliché goes... So when someone suggests that there might be more to riding a bike, that they're not doing it correctly, or that their bike could be set up better, folks feel some cognitive dissonance. I think that's a valuable insight.

All I know is that I was open to hearing the critiques, and that I'm a better rider for it.

It is not cognitive dissonance in my instance. I have received genuinely superb advice from a great number of knowlegeable cyclists- about climbing, fit, training, design,.....One is somewhat foolish not to listen to those with the experience, knowledge, and insight. Just that some have an attitude that their perspective is the only one. Perspectives are unique to the individual.

I appreciate your response.


Sandy

[WadePatton]

Methinks, as grasshoppers do, that one of the "traps" of the learning from others online or in person, is that some are much more qualified (worked with hundreds of riders) than others, but others (got his ownself set up pretty good) sometimes feel as compelled to share their "myway" approach and telling the two apart is not always easy in this medium.

And some folks, while world-class athletes, don't make great coaches.

Reminds me of "golf tips". Good gawd the hackers that devour every "tip" poured out by the magazines and their buddies, but never get professional instruction on basic fundamentals. They try to string all that together, stand over a ball until they freeze up and blammo, into the drink again. And that guy in the foursome who tries to "help" without request. ARG. FWIW I'm of the Ben Hogan "school" but inactive-haven't played since Tiger was a kitten.

But I'm not saying anything about any "instruction" I've seen HERE!!! The above is general interweb commentary.

This place :thrasher:

[Dekonick]

I think that most all of what you say is correct. One must realize that there are a zillion cyclists who are riding with relatively little actual saddle time. As they ride more and evolve more as a cyclist/rider, or whatever anyone wants to call it, they become better in tune with their own body, what works for them and what does not. They can feel the difference in changes that they had no understanding or sensitivity of previously- saddle height, or a fore/aft saddle position change, or change in stem height or rise,....Receiving insight from someone who has gone through the evolutionary process of becoming a better rider certainly will help them, not only obtain a better fit, but ultimately become a better cyclist and enjoy cycling more. Those who possess experience in fitting cyclists and are good at it, can be profoundly helpful. Those folks aren't born that way. They had to experience it, understand it, have insight into it, and be able to teach it to those who want to learn it.

As one becomes better fit, rides more, and becomes better as a cyclist, that person becomes more discriminating and sensitive to what works and what does not work for their improvement. Add some insight from someone who has been there and has done that, some real dedication on part of both, and bingo, you get a better fit and improved cyclist.

Clearly you have evolved as a cyclist as described above.

There are however many exceptions relative to saddle versus handlebar height. I have a friend who rides with his handlebar slightly above his saddle. He was fit by Tom Kellogg at the barn for a race type ti frameset. He works very hard at his cycling all year round and has improved greatly. He has a well structured all year program in place. Why are his bars so high? Because of a neck problem.

Clearly as one evolves from a complete novice to whatever level one ultimately reaches, there are many changes that occur in the cyclist, including but not limited to, a change in position on the bike and how the bike is designed for whatever purpose it is being used.

The brand new novice cyclist does not have a clue, and where the handlebar is relative to saddle is probably meaningless to most at that stage of cycling. Those who know better can and do help immeasurably in the process of becoming better.



Sandy

I fall into this category myself - my bars are a little lower than my saddle, but if I go much lower, I can't tolerate the neck strain. I fractured T-12, herniated c5,c6 20 years ago in a high speed car accident. I should have died. To this day, at work, if I have to wear my helmet for more than an hour my neck screams...but I manage. On my bike, I find if my position is too low the strain of lifting my head up for hours makes the ride unenjoyable. Oh - I was fit by Smiley BTW and I love my present position, even if it doesn't pass muster with the 'gets it' crowd.

Do I wish I could go lower? Sure do - but someone had better find a way to fix my neck first.

[flick]

I fall into this category myself - my bars are a little lower than my saddle, but if I go much lower, I can't tolerate the neck strain. I fractured T-12, herniated c5,c6 20 years ago in a high speed car accident. I should have died. To this day, at work, if I have to wear my helmet for more than an hour my neck screams...but I manage. On my bike, I find if my position is too low the strain of lifting my head up for hours makes the ride unenjoyable. Oh - I was fit by Smiley BTW and I love my present position, even if it doesn't pass muster with the 'gets it' crowd.

Do I wish I could go lower? Sure do - but someone had better find a way to fix my neck first.

If you are passionate about riding well, and that passion has led you to become knowledgeable about selecting your your bike and components for the most efficient riding position within your physical limitations then you and I know that you "get it" By the way. have you considered a "Heads Up" from Serotta, head tube extension to elevate your bars.

[jmeloy]

I fall into this category myself - my bars are a little lower than my saddle, but if I go much lower, I can't tolerate the neck strain. I fractured T-12, herniated c5,c6 20 years ago in a high speed car accident. I should have died. To this day, at work, if I have to wear my helmet for more than an hour my neck screams...but I manage. On my bike, I find if my position is too low the strain of lifting my head up for hours makes the ride unenjoyable. Oh - I was fit by Smiley BTW and I love my present position, even if it doesn't pass muster with the 'gets it' crowd.

Do I wish I could go lower? Sure do - but someone had better find a way to fix my neck first.

+1000 to Dekonick. Flipped my 1969 Motobecane Grand Record when I drifted too far right on a fast down hill left turn and watched the front wheel disappear b/w the rails of a storm drain. Endo (luckily into grass) but bent a vertebre for good. Can't get past neck strain in helmet no matter what I do but a smaller seat to bar drop makes it tolerable. New Zanc being built to recognize this.
Wanna go lower, yeah. Can I go lower, no. Wanna keep riding, yeah!
Jeff

[doofus]

I fall into this category myself - my bars are a little lower than my saddle, but if I go much lower, I can't tolerate the neck strain. I fractured T-12, herniated c5,c6 20 years ago in a high speed car accident. I should have died. To this day, at work, if I have to wear my helmet for more than an hour my neck screams...but I manage. On my bike, I find if my position is too low the strain of lifting my head up for hours makes the ride unenjoyable. Oh - I was fit by Smiley BTW and I love my present position, even if it doesn't pass muster with the 'gets it' crowd.

Do I wish I could go lower? Sure do - but someone had better find a way to fix my neck first.

as a member of the putative "gets it" crowd, I'd say your position is perfectly fine. position is a consequence of the structural fitness of the rider. if someone has an underlying functional problem -- your neck, or ken robb's bad eyes -- then the position has to be adapted to the rider's body.

I used to work in a shop that sold serottas, and I assisted our fit technician. 95% of our fits were for people who had no underlying physical limitations -- they were just out of proper riding shape. we sold them $5,000+ upright bikes as fashionable, bling-bling quick fixes for their lack of postural fitness. those bikes and positions were awful.

however, any bike created to enable someone with a permanent physical limitation to get out and enjoy riding is a lovely thing.

[Sharon Stone's Comma]