Autos thread spin-off -- Convince me this is stupid

[Ben]

By all reports, the new 2011 and newer Mustangs are incredible cars. The V8 GTs make 412hp bone stock, and for roughly $38k, you get a car that will run around a racetrack with a $65k BMW M3. Do I have your attention yet?

Now, the V6 iteration of the Mustang makes 305hp, gets a (stunning) 31mpg, and is essentially the same car as the GT (minus 2 cylinders and a shorter rear end). Handling-wise, the stock models are effectively identical. And the MSRP starts at about $22k.

So here's the idea that keeps floating around in my head: Why not buy a used V6, bolt on a supercharger, make some cheap handling, exhaust and braking mods, and build a shoestring supercar? For around $30K, you'd have a car that makes nearly 500hp, weighs less than the GT, gets great gas mileage, handles like it should, and would run around a track (or curvy road) with cars that cost three times as much.

So my challenge to the VSalon is this: Convince me this a dumb idea. If your reasoning boils down to "I just don't like Mustangs," (a) that's fine but I disagree with you, (b) Steve McQueen would like a word, and (c) what do you like better at that price range?

[davids]

1) A supercharged V6 is not a V8.
2) Is the suspension the same on the V6 as on the GT? I just read C&D's review of the Boss yesterday, and they loved the subtle suspension differences between the Boss & GT. (Uh, I just went & located their review of the V6. They really, really like how it handles. Never mind...)

[chasea]

The only thing I can come up with- and I'm sorry for this- is that the interior of the modern Mustang is still a modern Ford interior. Can you really get excited about driving while sitting in that?

[nahtnoj]

I think 500hp for 30K might be optimistic, but I like what you are thinking. How much does a supercharger weigh? If you wind up adding 150lbs to the front end it may not be worth it.

Edit - Chase, gut the interior to save weight?

[Ben]

1) A supercharged V6 is not a V8.

Absolutely right. But for the money? And without the weight and fuel efficiency penalties? Pretty damn appealing, at least to me.

2) Is the suspension the same on the V6 as on the GT? I just read C&D's review of the Boss yesterday, and they loved the subtle suspension differences between the Boss & GT. (Uh, I just went & located their review of the V6. They really, really like how it handles. Never mind...)

That's part of what's so appealing about it. Everyone who's driven it raved about how it handles.

The only thing I can come up with- and I'm sorry for this- is that the interior of the modern Mustang is still a modern Ford interior. Can you really get excited about driving while sitting in that?

The finishes on the new cars are muuuuuch better than the box-o-plastic looks on Mustangs of the recent past. I realize this isn't what you get on the $22k car, but to my eye, this is a reasonably attractive interior:
mustang.gif
I've piddled around the neighborhood in one, and it's striking how well they're made, IMO.

I think 500hp for 30K might be optimistic, but I like what you are thinking. How much does a supercharger weigh? If you wind up adding 150lbs to the front end it may not be worth it.

Edit - Chase, gut the interior to save weight?

These guys are claiming that a supercharged V6 generates 475 at the flywheel, and you can always eke out a few more with a freer exhaust, etc. That's where I got "nearly 500hp."

[nahtnoj]

These guys are claiming that a supercharged V6 generates 475 at the flywheel, and you can always eke out a few more with a freer exhaust, etc. That's where I got "nearly 500hp."[/QUOTE]

So about 400 to the ground? Nothing to sneeze at. I see you're not a turbo guy, but for 30K the counterpoint is a 335 with a chip, exhaust, and light suspension work. Probably about 350 on the ground in a much more attractive overall package, at least to my eye.

[Ben]

So about 400 to the ground? Nothing to sneeze at. I see you're not a turbo guy, but for 30K the counterpoint is a 335 with a chip, exhaust, and light suspension work. Probably about 350 on the ground in a much more attractive overall package, at least to my eye.

The site I linked was claiming 427rwhp, if I remember correctly.

Where are you finding a modded 335i for $30K? That would have to be the bro deal to end all bro deals, or a 10-year old car.

[nahtnoj]

The site I linked was claiming 427rwhp, if I remember correctly.

Where are you finding a modded 335i for $30K? That would have to be the bro deal to end all bro deals, or a 10-year old car.

You can buy 2007 335i with less than 50K miles for about $25K all day. Five grand should get you at least an exhaust and ECU re-flash right? Probably have some left over for suspension work. But hey, it seems from your other posts that the character of the Mustang is more your thing.

If I had unlimited money I'd have an S6 or RS6 Avant. I'm a completely unapologetic Euro station wagon guy. Or an E63AMG (special order only) wagon. Also I'm sure there is some way to get an M5 wagon in the US if you throw enough money at the situation.

[Eddie]

Why a supercharger and not a turbo? Maybe it's just my background (way back) in working on drag racing turbo cars that make me think exhaust- over belt-driven forced air induction.

I did some work back in high school on Buick Grand National/GNX/T-Type/Turbo T's and Pontiac Turbo Trans-Ams and attended the nationals in Bowling Green, Kentucky one year. By leaning out the fuel pressure regulator and upping the boost a bit, there were guys there who had driven their cars as much as half-way across the country, experienced 30+ miles per gallon in fuel economy, made some adjustments at the track, and then ran low-10-second 1/4 mile times. Pretty awesome.

Also, the 1986 Buick Grand National, with its turbocharged and intercooled 3.8L V6, was the fastest out-of-the-box American production car until the Corvette ZR1 came out, and then that was topped by the Viper, and now, well I don't know anymore.

[Ben]

Why a supercharger and not a turbo? Maybe it's just my background (way back) in working on drag racing turbo cars that make me think exhaust- over belt-driven forced air induction.

A fair question. Basically, it's because even though this is effectively a Euro-style high-rpm setup, I still like the low-end punch that you don't get from a turbo. I feel like it's consistent with the car's muscle-car nature.

Also, the 1986 Buick Grand National, with its turbocharged and intercooled 3.8L V6, was the fastest out-of-the-box American production car until the Corvette ZR1 came out, and then that was topped by the Viper, and now, well I don't know anymore.

If it's not the new ZR1 or some Viper variant, maybe it's the Ford GT? For a while at least, a heavily-modded GT held the standing mile record. As in, faster than a Veyron.

Not to go all Bill Clinton on you, but it really depends on how you define "fastest" and "stock." ;)

[chasea]

Not to be the forum's hippie or anything, but 22K is ten custom frames with infinite mpg and 0 emissions. AllsI'msayin'.

[Ben]

Not to be the forum's hippie or anything, but 22K is ten custom frames with infinite mpg and 0 emissions. AllsI'msayin'.

Not to be the forum's nitpicking didact, but riding a bike is not an infinite mpg/0 emission activity. The food you eat - the "fuel" for the bike - requires energy to get it to you, to prepare, and to dispose of the waste. Not to mention that the clothes you wear are made of sweet, sweet petroleum. It's surely less than driving a car, but everything has costs.

And besides, cars are way better in the rain.

[chasea]

Not to be the forum's nitpicking didact, but riding a bike is not an infinite mpg/0 emission activity. The food you eat - the "fuel" for the bike - requires energy to get it to you, to prepare, and to dispose of the waste. Not to mention that the clothes you wear are made of sweet, sweet petroleum. It's surely less than driving a car, but everything has costs.

And besides, cars are way better in the rain.

Another case of I shoulda added a winky-face thing. All that goes without saying (well, it should, anyway).

Sincerely,
Chase "Works for the Saudi Royal Family and Profits from Oil Dependency" Anderson

[Ben]

Dave, understood. As a matter of personal preference, I've grown up in total, frothing, head-over-heels, messy-poetry-at-1:00-a.m. love with RWD cars with tons of horsepower. (My first real car was a 1967 Pontiac LeMans with the 326.) Which is not to say that light, flickable cars aren't great, but the things about the car that bother you wouldn't bother me a whit. I'm not a racer. I'm a fun-hog, a hoon. If you drew a Venn diagram of the things that make for fast lap times and the things that make for pee-pants fun driving, the two have lots of overlap but don't intersect perfectly in my book. So I get what you're saying, but don't share your qualms.

FWIW, my best friend is firmly in your camp. We've had about a thousand beers' worth of this discussion.

[Dave Kirk]

Dave, understood. As a matter of personal preference, I've grown up in total, frothing, head-over-heels, messy-poetry-at-1:00-a.m. love with RWD cars with tons of horsepower. (My first real car was a 1967 Pontiac LeMans with the 326.) Which is not to say that light, flickable cars aren't great, but the things about the car that bother you wouldn't bother me a whit. I'm not a racer. I'm a fun-hog, a hoon. If you drew a Venn diagram of the things that make for fast lap times and the things that make for pee-pants fun driving, the two have lots of overlap but don't intersect perfectly in my book. So I get what you're saying, but don't share your qualms.

FWIW, my best friend is firmly in your camp. We've had about a thousand beers' worth of this discussion.

Sounds very good. Have fun!

dave

[Dave Kirk]

I've driven a few different versions of the new Mustang (NA and SC V8's) and no offense - but I really dislike it. It's quick in a straight line and would be nice for road trips but as a sporting car I find it to be way too big (it's a huge car) and way too heavy and IMO this sucks the joy out of driving it.

If you want a cruiser that will lay streaks then it's fun. If you want to autocross/trackday the car or take it out on twisty roads and have fun then I think you will find it lacking.

Just my 2 cents.

dave

[maunahaole]

I've driven a few different versions of the new Mustang (NA and SC V8's) and no offense - but I really dislike it. It's quick in a straight line and would be nice for road trips but as a sporting car I find it to be way too big (it's a huge car) and way too heavy and IMO this sucks the joy out of driving it.

If you want a cruiser that will lay streaks then it's fun. If you want to autocross/trackday the car or take it out on twisty roads and have fun then I think you will find it lacking.

Just my 2 cents.

dave

That's funny that you say that about the size of the Mustang. The other there was one parked in my parking garage next to a Porsche 928. I always thought of the 928 as a pretty big car. The Mustang just dwarfed it.

[Dave Kirk]

That's funny that you say that about the size of the Mustang. The other there was one parked in my parking garage next to a Porsche 928. I always thought of the 928 as a pretty big car. The Mustang just dwarfed it.

A 928 isn't small is it? It's all relative I guess.

What confuses me is how Ford could make the outside of the new Mustang so large and have the inside be so small. My head hits the roof in the mustang with my helmet on while I fit in an Elise just fine. Go figure.

Dave

[Jayme]

What confuses me is how Ford could make the outside of the new Mustang so large and have the inside be so small. My head hits the roof in the mustang with my helmet on while I fit in an Elise just fine. Go figure.

Dave

Dave,

I might have to use that reasoning to justify a Lotus to my wife?

Thanks,

Jayme

[Dorman]

Having a light car that handles well is far more important than power on a road course. Also, if you think you are going to bolt a blower on a V6 and still have better fuel economy than a naturally aspirated V8 you are kidding yourself and you engine wear is going to be much more rapid. If you want the Mustang go for it, but get the V8. If that isn't enough power then bolt on the blower and have some real fun.