Espresso machines

[gkk]

No, the machine was designed by silicon valley types, it is totally dependent on the digital interface.

I've had one for several years now, happy to share experiences. tl;dr I really like its flexibility and power and the courage it gives me to experiment with different types of coffee (even pourovers of a sort).

A nitpick - Mark is correct that you need the tablet to fully use the machine's features/parameters and to help evaluate & record your shots, but if you don't want it in your face and are not trying to change any parameters and just want to pull the same shot as the last one, you can take the tablet off and stash it in a drawer and just use the machine's controls to make your espressos.

/gkk

[GeneK]

No, the machine was designed by silicon valley types, it is totally dependent on the digital interface.

That is the reason I would NOT want the Decent machine. In fact, I just took delivery on an Olympia Cremina as an addition to my existing Rocket Mozzafiato. The Cremina is a completely manual lever machine, no temperature control, no pressure indication (without modification). For what it is it cost a small fortune. It’s going to take a while to get the hang of it but so far it’s been fun.
Of course I’m a dinosaur at age 70 never having owned a car with automatic transmission. Guess I’m slow to adopt new technology.
In the end, to each his own.

[9tubes]

As long as the Decent machine doesn't need a connection to the internet...that would be a deal breaker for me.

I like the concept of the Decent machine, although I recall it uses two vibratory pumps to do the flow and temp control. Not optimal, but it does keep the cost in line.

[9tubes]

As long as the Decent machine doesn't need a connection to the internet...that would be a deal breaker for me.

I like the concept of the Decent machine, although I recall it uses two vibratory pumps to do the flow and temp control. Not optimal, but it does keep the cost in line.

[Mark Kelly]

A nitpick - Mark is correct that you need the tablet to fully use the machine's features/parameters and to help evaluate & record your shots, but if you don't want it in your face and are not trying to change any parameters and just want to pull the same shot as the last one, you can take the tablet off and stash it in a drawer and just use the machine's controls to make your espressos.

My understanding is that in that scenario the tablet is still running the machine since the machine requires a lot of computing input.

The original conception of the machine was from a kickstarter called ZPM and was pitched as a cheap PID controlled coffee machine. The kickstarter failed, John Buckman took over about ten years ago and moved all the process control to the tablet.

[gkk]

My understanding is that in that scenario the tablet is still running the machine since the machine requires a lot of computing input.

No that's not correct. My (admittedly amateur) understanding is that once you get your parameters set, they are downloaded to the firmware of the machine for purposes of operation. So theoretically you could power down the tablet and it will still work to make your espresso & foam your milk. You're losing most of the interesting/data-driven parts of the machine by using it that way (real time monitoring of and then storage & recall of pressure/flow/temp/weight, changing profiles for different styles of drink, etc. etc.) but it can be used stand-alone like that.

To @9tubes' question, an internet connection is not required to use the machine, including the tablet-based software. Again, it is more functional with it - you need the internet connection to upload your shots to visualizer.coffee , download new profiles to try out, update the software and machine firmware, etc. etc. but the tablet software does not require an internet connection in order to use all of its base functionality.

It is definitely not a machine for everybody, aesthetically or operationally, but it makes great coffees. /gkk

[9tubes]

To @9tubes' question, an internet connection is not required to use the machine, including the tablet-based software. Again, it is more functional with it - you need the internet connection to upload your shots to visualizer.coffee , download new profiles to try out, update the software and machine firmware, etc. etc. but the tablet software does not require an internet connection in order to use all of its base functionality.

Yes, that's what I mean in terms of connection to the mothership. Its functionality is limited without the connection, so the value of the machine is far less if anything happens to Decent or the software (like they just decide to not provide support, as has happened with so many small and large companies). It's also likely sending full data to the company. I would pass on the machine for that aspect alone. For that level of price there are better pressure/flow profiling alternatives (Rocket, Quick Mill, Lelit, etc.)

[9tubes]

To @9tubes' question, an internet connection is not required to use the machine, including the tablet-based software. Again, it is more functional with it - you need the internet connection to upload your shots to visualizer.coffee , download new profiles to try out, update the software and machine firmware, etc. etc. but the tablet software does not require an internet connection in order to use all of its base functionality.

Yes, that's what I mean in terms of connection to the mothership. Its functionality is limited without the connection, so the value of the machine is far less if anything happens to Decent or the software (like they just decide to not provide support, as has happened with so many small and large companies). It's also likely sending full data to the company. I would pass on the machine for that aspect alone. For that level of price there are better pressure/flow profiling alternatives (Rocket, Quick Mill, Lelit, etc.)

[Mark Kelly]

No that's not correct. My (admittedly amateur) understanding is that once you get your parameters set, they are downloaded to the firmware of the machine for purposes of operation.

Thanks, that explanation makes sense.

[sbornia]

Anybody out there in the land of espresso couture used one of these?

https://decentespresso.com/

Save me from myself.... currently using Rocket R58

I can share some inside scoop, feel free to PM me.

[Drew]

Yes, that's what I mean in terms of connection to the mothership. Its functionality is limited without the connection, so the value of the machine is far less if anything happens to Decent or the software (like they just decide to not provide support, as has happened with so many small and large companies). It's also likely sending full data to the company. I would pass on the machine for that aspect alone. For that level of price there are better pressure/flow profiling alternatives (Rocket, Quick Mill, Lelit, etc.)

Rocket R9one is $6500
I don't see any options from Lelit or Quickmill with pressure profiling? POP is manual...
Marzocco gs3 = $8000 (don't think this has programmable pressure)
San Remo You = $6950
Decent = $3700

what am I missing? I'm no expert on what's available - have not done a whole lot of research yet - but looking for programmable, automatically controlled pressure and temperature.

[Drew]

currently flirting with Gaggia Classic w Gaggiuino mods... would be a fun project for not nearly as many dollars.

[9tubes]

Drew, I have a Quick Mill Andreja Profiles. Despite the name, it's the Vetrano 2B Evo with a profiling computer plus a gear pump. It's interesting that the design matches the original Slayer design in a small home sized case. About $4000 although I'm not sure it's imported to the U.S. currently.

Rocket makes the R60, about $5000

You can save money with manual flow control rather than computer programmed. Lelit has several models with manual profiling. The manual valve also can be fitted to any e61 machine. I recall it goes for less than $150. There are a bunch of YouTube videos about this.

[Drew]

Drew, I have a Quick Mill Andreja Profiles. Despite the name, it's the Vetrano 2B Evo with a profiling computer plus a gear pump. It's interesting that the design matches the original Slayer design in a small home sized case. About $4000 although I'm not sure it's imported to the U.S. currently.

Rocket makes the R60, about $5000

You can save money with manual flow control rather than computer programmed. Lelit has several models with manual profiling. The manual valve also can be fitted to any e61 machine. I recall it goes for less than $150. There are a bunch of YouTube videos about this.

thanks! Quickly learning that this is a deep, dark, black hole of possibilities...

[Mark Kelly]

I'll add another possibility: build your own. I am in the middle of doing just that: I came up with a different way of doing profiling and it went slightly crazy from there.

The machine has three pumps, two boilers made of fused quartz and borosilicate glass plus a heat exchanger for good measure.

[j44ke]

Chris' Coffee is having its open-box sale presently. I like the look of the Lelit model.

https://www.chriscoffee.com/collecti...o-machine-sale

We have a Quick Mill super automatic (not even sure they make it any longer) that is 70lbs of shiny metal. I can barely bring myself to cleaning it, though I do fairly regularly and it isn't difficult. Just a bit laborious and requires a supply of o-rings. To its credit it just blasts away no matter what I do (or don't) and never falters - knock on wood. I bought it from the above dealer, so should it ever go sideways I can drive it an hour north for service. Even though it is a super automatic, the back end is 100% double boiler analog machine and the front is a series of mechanical levers and gears that catch a load of grounds from the burr grinder and make espresso. Sounds like a miniature factory getting started.

I can't imagine using a computer to make coffee.