Ukraine

[bertiewhang]

So when the Ukraine president's instgram pics claim a Russian missile just killed 50 Russians civilians at that train station, we take him at his word?

Is this the same Ukrainian president that just the other day gave a speech to the Greek parliament and the. Handed the mic to two Nazis leading to a large amount of decent politicians to walk out in disgust? The rest of the politicians giving them a round of applause.

[72gmc]

^^^ Ukraine says that characterization of Azov is no longer accurate. Another case of who do you believe.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...rs-2022-04-07/

[classtimesailer]

I just read that Japan just changed their characterization of the Azov Nazis to non-nazis.

[Will Neide]

Nazi's or not is irrelevant. We have Nazi's in the US, and Russia is not rushing to eliminate that threat. Any Nazi issues in Ukraine are Ukraine's problem, not Russias. Are the Nazi's still gassing, murdering, looting, and whatever additional attrocities they committed still actively performing those acts?

De-Nazifying Ukraine is not cause for invasion.

[BBB]

De-Nazifying Ukraine is not cause for invasion.

It also conveniently relies on a historical precedent to justify brutality and occupation. Fortunately the world has moved on ever so slightly since the mid-1940s.

[classtimesailer]

I'm not sure that the American objective has moved on. Should we hope the Nazis win this time? Or maybe we were hoping they would do a better job on the Russians last time--never mind the collateral damage--and we will give them another shot.

[jimcav]

Should we hope the Nazis win this time?

Who is the 'we', and what nazis are you talking about? I don't know anyone in my 28 years wearing uniform who had anything positive or even respectful to say about the actual Nazi regime of Germany. I have of course read some statements that seemed to give some begrudging tribute to their early operational and "organizational" skills and record keeping, but even with the mainstreaming of some far-right conservative conspiracy theory falsehoods in America, neo-nazi stuff is still fringe in terms of actual acceptance of ideas let alone policy, and deservedly small "n" nazi.
I've tried to read up on some of the commentary on the lead up to war, much of which opined westernization of Ukraine, talking about NATO membership etc was/is a perceived threat to the authoritarian gov't of Russia, but nothing of what I read had anything credible about Nazis or even nazis.

[j44ke]

I'm not sure that the American objective has moved on. Should we hope the Nazis win this time? Or maybe we were hoping they would do a better job on the Russians last time--never mind the collateral damage--and we will give them another shot.

As moderator, I'm giving you a caution. This is just silly.

[vertical_doug]

Is this the same Ukrainian president that just the other day gave a speech to the Greek parliament and the. Handed the mic to two Nazis leading to a large amount of decent politicians to walk out in disgust? The rest of the politicians giving them a round of applause.

Actually, there is a lot to unpack here. Did Zelensky make a mistake having someone from the Azov Brigade speak to Greek Parliament. Absolutely, but consider the following:
1. Many Greeks actually support Russia as a fellow Orthodox nation and view Russia as a protectorate of Greece versus Turkey. (This is historical from the Ottoman empire)
2. Because many of the ethno-greek in Ukraine have historically sided with the Russian separatists, I think Zelensky wanted to show a ethnic greek fighting with Azov Brigade.
3. The political wing of Azov is definitely neo-nazis, but the military wing was split from the political wing as they try to integrate it with regular Ukrainian Militia. Reports are about 20% of the military Azov Brigade is Nazis or Nazis leaning.
4. Historically from the 2014 Russian invasion of Donbas, the Azov Brigade has been fighting them in the region. This is why the Azov Brigade has such a high profile.
5. I think if you investigate the 'decent' Greek politicians who walked out, you will find they lean towards Russia and this was just the excuse to walk out and cause a fuss. Never let an opportunity go to waste.

But if I apply the logic here some are using to explain Russia's actions. Because Russia warned Ukraine not to move closer to Nato, and they were, then Russia was justified in invading Ukraine.
Since the US warned Russian not to invade Ukraine, we are justified to do the same to Russia? What' good for the goose is good for the gander.

[9tubes]

But if I apply the logic here some are using to explain Russia's actions. Because Russia warned Ukraine not to move closer to Nato, and they were, then Russia was justified in invading Ukraine.
Since the US warned Russian not to invade Ukraine, we are justified to do the same to Russia? What' good for the goose is good for the gander.

Observers of the war need to be careful about the difference between explaining Russia's actions and justifying Russia's actions. There is no question that Russia warned the west about moving NATO east, and warned against putting missiles near the Russian border. Many of the top U.S. foreign policy people (like Kissinger, Brennan, etc.) warned the U.S. not to do it over the last 25 years of slow US-NATO encroachment. Does that justify Russia's invasion? That's entirely another question. Also, there is the trillion dollar question of whether that was Russia's true rationale for invading, or merely a convenient pretext for something Russia wanted to do anyway, or maybe both.

[Doug Fattic]

I continue to get reports from my contacts in Ukraine. Remarkably the college in Bucha where our little frame workshop is located has had minimal damage compared to the rest of the city. Some windows have been broken and dorm doors have been kicked open but desktop computers were not taken. This is probably because they wanted laptops. The new rich houses surrounding the campus was probably where they targeted their looting. Yuriy my work companion for years is taking the women in his family to Poland. Anna by translator is trying to figure out how to get to Germany with her 2 little girls where she has relatives. She is not in a safe place but is now out of Russian controlled area. Her husband of course has to stay behind.

They tell me that Ukraine is very united now. it used to be that the Ukrainian speaking Roman Catholic parts of west Ukraine had some differences with Russian speaking Russian Orthodox eastern Ukraine but now they are as one. By the way it seemed like wherever I was in Ukraine everybody spoke Russian - especially in Kyiv.

The Russians have spared the area around the city of Poltava. This city is halfway between Kyiv and Kharkiv. I've stayed there a few times traveling to the XB3 bicycle factory in Kharkov. That area has a natural gas and oil infrastructure that is income producing and the Russians hope to preserve the possibility of making money from those assets.

I think the discussion on what responsibility the west had in triggering Putin to invade as pointless. It is like how much was the pretty girl at fault for getting raped? It turns the discussion away from the real problem. Was the clothes the girl was wearing too sexy? The focus instead should be on the evil of the perpetrator. Putin was simply waiting for the right opportunity. If he wasn't evil he wouldn't have done it. His motives are related to his self interests without caring what happens to others. His timing was based on the opportunity when the reward/penalty was the best.

[bertiewhang]

Actually, there is a lot to unpack here. Did Zelensky make a mistake having someone from the Azov Brigade speak to Greek Parliament. Absolutely, but consider the following:
1. Many Greeks actually support Russia as a fellow Orthodox nation and view Russia as a protectorate of Greece versus Turkey. (This is historical from the Ottoman empire)
2. Because many of the ethno-greek in Ukraine have historically sided with the Russian separatists, I think Zelensky wanted to show a ethnic greek fighting with Azov Brigade.
3. The political wing of Azov is definitely neo-nazis, but the military wing was split from the political wing as they try to integrate it with regular Ukrainian Militia. Reports are about 20% of the military Azov Brigade is Nazis or Nazis leaning.
4. Historically from the 2014 Russian invasion of Donbas, the Azov Brigade has been fighting them in the region. This is why the Azov Brigade has such a high profile.
5. I think if you investigate the 'decent' Greek politicians who walked out, you will find they lean towards Russia and this was just the excuse to walk out and cause a fuss. Never let an opportunity go to waste.

But if I apply the logic here some are using to explain Russia's actions. Because Russia warned Ukraine not to move closer to Nato, and they were, then Russia was justified in invading Ukraine.
Since the US warned Russian not to invade Ukraine, we are justified to do the same to Russia? What' good for the goose is good for the gander.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/forward...kraine/%3fgamp

[bertiewhang]

Nazi's or not is irrelevant. We have Nazi's in the US, and Russia is not rushing to eliminate that threat. Any Nazi issues in Ukraine are Ukraine's problem, not Russias. Are the Nazi's still gassing, murdering, looting, and whatever additional attrocities they committed still actively performing those acts?

De-Nazifying Ukraine is not cause for invasion.

Are you unaware that they have murdered 15000 people Inthe Donbass since 2014. Nobody is saying that the invasion is ok but acts of this manner unchecked did not go well for a lot of leoe from the 1930s onwards.

[vertical_doug]

Are you unaware that they have murdered 15000 people Inthe Donbass since 2014. Nobody is saying that the invasion is ok but acts of this manner unchecked did not go well for a lot of leoe from the 1930s onwards.

When you say 'they', do you mean pro-Ukrainian Gov forces murdered 15,000 or do you mean fighting between Pro-Russian Separatists and Pro-Ukrainian Gov forces have resulted in 15,000 deaths?

Zelensky stated as much December of last year.
https://www.txtreport.com/news/2021-...HyWsckU9t.html

who shot down Malaysia Air 17?

No one is saying there aren't Nazi in Ukraine. It was a failing of Viktor Yushchenko during the orange revolution and a failing of Poroshenko. But it is not completely unsurprising knowing how the history of Nazism in 1930's Germany and the German Gov fear of communism/socialism.

[bertiewhang]

When you say 'they', do you mean pro-Ukrainian Gov forces murdered 15,000 or do you mean fighting between Pro-Russian Separatists and Pro-Ukrainian Gov forces have resulted in 15,000 deaths?

Zelensky stated as much December of last year.
https://www.txtreport.com/news/2021-...HyWsckU9t.html

who shot down Malaysia Air 17?

No one is saying there aren't Nazi in Ukraine. It was a failing of Viktor Yushchenko during the orange revolution and a failing of Poroshenko. But it is not completely unsurprising knowing how the history of Nazism in 1930's Germany and the German Gov fear of communism/socialism.

I mean ukrainian forces have shelled and killed 15000 civilians in the Donbass since 2014.
Zelensky says whatever whoever is twisting his arm at that time wants him to say.
If you believe much of what the western media is saying then perhaps you need to cast a critical eye and look a bit further.
All I have seen from the bbc, itv, sky, MSNBC, fox, CNN and all the the rest is bloodlust and demand for escalation.
All of this is a proxy war of the west against the east. If you think otherwise then that is the opinion you are entitled to.
If the west gave a fuck about Ukrainian people they would not be strongarming local NATO members into supplying more weapons.and prolonging a terrible war. The Ukraine will cease to exist as it was and many, many thousands of people will have died needlessly in the name of "democracy" NATOs particular brand of democracy always seems to cost far too many lives and far too many billions.
This terrible war has made the cost of living go mental and let's be clear, if NATO hadn't pushed for Ukraine's "democratic" right to choose their own path and perhaps had acquiesced to legitimate concerns by a near neighbour, those tanks would not have rolled in and all those refugees would still be in their own homes watching their own televisions. So in Europe we have a mass of Syrian refugees.and a mass of Ukrainian refugees. That other nations taxpayers kindly funded the need for them to runaway from unimaginable situations but those same kindly taxpayers are going to have to bankroll their resettlement.

I could go on and on about other matters of this argument that are conveniently papered over and all nuance is ignored.
All of this boils down to some people who are elected, some people who aren't, making decisions that the vast majority of their countrymen would completely disagree with.

Another thing that really boils my piss is that in recent times anyone that disagrees with people in any way is branded a Nazi which is a slur if of unimaginable magnitude but now it's become apparent there are actual real ideological Nazis in positions of real power in a country that my country and others have been bankrolling and training. It is a fucking international disgrace leaders of my country have and are doing this and have and will stand at the Cenotaph on remembrance Sunday to "honour" those that gave their lives to stop the march of Nazis not that long before I was born. it makes me sick to my stomach the whole disaster and the legitimisation of their being Nazi forces, monument, street names you name it, is the cherry on the icing on the biggest shitpile of cake in living memory.

[Will Neide]

That's a lot to unpack. From my point of view, It almost seems inconceivable to you that the Ukrainians might not want to be under Russian rule. You want them to "just let it happen?"

I bet you're still pissed a bunch of pesky colonists over threw the king. I bet the French made them do it.

[Marvinlungwitz]

Sometimes war makes for unusual and unexpected alliances. After all, Russia became an ally in the latter part of WW2, after have been an ally of the Nazis before that.

So Ukraine is using on some of its less savory elements to fight a common foe. Not surprising. But to characterize all of Ukraine, including its Jewish President, as Nazi is being willfully ignorant, are as many of the other posts in this thread (including some of mine, but I inserted them for sarcasm).

[classtimesailer]

That's a lot to unpack. From my point of view, It almost seems inconceivable to you that the Ukrainians might not want to be under Russian rule. You want them to "just let it happen?"

I bet you're still pissed a bunch of pesky colonists over threw the king. I bet the French made them do it.

I wish it was just pesky colonists and not a bunch of slave traders. Now a bunch of Ukrainian skinheads are the freedom fighters of western nightly news shows.

[bigbill]

This topic has descended into hyperbole and unsupported statements. I advise folks on writing their thesis and the most common comment is: "if you say that, you have to provide evidence to back it up."

[Doug Fattic]

Like I said earlier, I was in Ukraine in 2014 when Russia invaded the eastern parts of Ukraine. The campus where our frame workshop is located was flooded with refugees fleeing where their homes and businesses were destroyed. With the help of an interpreter I was able to talk to a few of them. Furthermore the guys on campus that did video traveled to the east to get footage of what was going on. They showed these videos in church as a kind of call to help fellow Ukrainians. Every church service was a sermon on the good Samaritan. In other words using a Biblical example of the responsibility we have to help others in need. I was pretty horrified by what I heard from the refugees and saw on video taken by the guys near our shop. While I was there I didn't really have access to western news.

One thing I heard repeatedly every time I go back to Ukraine is that they know a take over by Putin would reduce and perhaps remove their personal freedoms. They are very much afraid this might happen. The older ones remember life in Soviet times. In my circle of acquaintances, I have never come across anyone that would prefer being under a Russian government. On the on contrary they despise the idea. That doesn't mean they don't exist (especially in the east and Crimea) but I never met any.

My take of the situation in 2014 was that Putin wanted the area's resources and a land bridge to Crimea. It is a strategic military location because it has warm water ports. And it is a great place to launch submarines straight into the Black Sea. I've visited where the USSR made subs in caves dug out of the cliffs that drop straight down into the sea. The water is deep right at the edge of land.

It is true that some unsavory characters were the ones willing to fight the Russians invading Ukraine after 2014. Russian aggression apologists like to point them out. That doesn't make the Russians the good guys wearing white hats however.