The direction of society lately

[htwoopup]

I actually looked up the results, and I think the premise in post #309 is highly suspect.

The actual breakdown by age are as follows (screenshot taken from DW's article on the election):



Most pertinently, the SPD, the Greens, the Left, and the BSW are the left-leaning parties. Together, they obtained 54% of the 18-24 vote and 47% of the 25-34 vote.

The CDU/CSU, FDP, and AFD are the right-leaning parties, albeit with the former two more like Bush I/ Nixon GOP (pro-business tilt, FDP particularly so) and the AFD more like the present-day GOP. They obtained 39% of the 18-24 vote and 45% of the 25-34 vote.

Preference for the left-leaning parties in Germany really isn't as pronounced as writer of post #309 proclaims to be.

I am not really conversant in this stuff…but is it really left vs right or is it now traditional political system vs burn it all down? Both in Germany and the US. Can’t one lump the nationalist left and nationalist right together? It is interesting, from my slight understanding of this, that in Germany the young are fascism-curious as are the young in the US. Also, the older folks who have lived through or close enough generationally to authoritarian that they tend to be the middle such as Social Democrats and Social Conservatives. It is also interesting to me that it seems the votes for the AfD seem to be weighted to the old East Germany much as the US neo-fascist stuff seems to have started (ATMO) in the former slave owning states in the south.

[echappist]

I am not really conversant in this stuff…but is it really left vs right or is it now traditional political system vs burn it all down? Both in Germany and the US. Can’t one lump the nationalist left and nationalist right together? It is interesting, from my slight understanding of this, that in Germany the young are fascism-curious as are the young in the US. Also, the older folks who have lived through or close enough generationally to authoritarian that they tend to be the middle such as Social Democrats and Social Conservatives. It is also interesting to me that it seems the votes for the AfD seem to be weighted to the old East Germany much as the US neo-fascist stuff seems to have started (ATMO) in the former slave owning states in the south.

Though I’m interested in modern German history, i’m not well versed enough to give in depth opinion on the election.

Having said that, there is a distinct East / West split. SPD and CDU primarily in the West, while AfD, the Left (Die Linke), and BSW primarily in the East. Die Linke traces its roots back to the Socialist Unity Party (SED), as in the totalitarian governing party of East Germany; and the BSW is founded by a person (Wagenknecht, the “W” in BSW) who split from Die Linke and was a card carrying member of the SED. Yet it’s not that simple when it comes to the AfD, as it has considerable support in former heavily industrialized areas in the West, though the level of support is highest in the East.

In that context, ~35% of the vote went to parties associated with the former East, whether right wing or left wing.

I have neither the stomach (nor the time) to read propaganda pieces by the AfD, but I have read a few op-ed pieces by writers whose proclivities align with that of Die Linke. The Guardian publishes these from time to time (by Carolin Würfel and Katja Hoyer). I read the opinion pieces with the aim to better understand contemporary Germany, but I regret reading pieces of both authors, as these were laden with Ostalgia, apologia, victimhood (not at the hand of the SED but at the hand of reunification and the Bundesrepublik), and a good dose of absolving of culpability.

While I don’t have much room for their arguments, they at least picked up on the issue of many in the East feeling left behind and how that resentment has been exploited by the AfD. Exploitation of those resentment by ultra-libertarians (or is it f*ckyoutarians) who pay lip service without offering much in terms of a concrete plan is unfortunately something many Western democracies have to deal with.

[suspectdevice]

Thanks to Ecahappist for wading through the data on german voting trends- now parse it by age and gender, will ya? Break down the American youth vote by gender… you already know how that went- the young men are not alright.

Comparing Germany (with actual democracy, coalition governments and a functional system of governance and laws on political contributions) to America(two far-right parties, Citizens United), is kind of a red herring.

While the Germans still know how to fight a class war, Americans seem content to drown ourselves in culture war.

As germany vows “never again”, America vows “never remember”.
Nazi idology and policy were highly influenced by American politics and american ideals. Nazism was America on steroids. Our genocides were legendary, our Jim Crow laws and destruction of organized labor and the left during WW1 was a massive inspiration in creating the Nazi state.

Father Coughlin(the scion of Prosperity Gospel) lined right up with Charles Lindbergh trying to appease Hitler under the banner of America First.

“Old Man Trump” is a song written by Woody Guthrie(noted fan of killing fascists)about his NYC landlord, Fred Trump, fleecing WW2 veterans and misusing federal funds in the 50’s


America is still un-reconstructed from the Civil War- the 20th century fascist movements in this country, and the 21st century fascist movement have the same goal- the destruction of the promise of FDR’s Four Freedoms.

Freedom of speech and expression.
Freedom of worship.
Freedom from want.
Freedom from fear.

All of these promises, which were supposed to be “our plowshare” for not having a proletarian revolution during the Great Depression are dead.

we have one freedom. Freedom to Consume.
(speaking of which, tomorrow, the 28th CAN be a day for Americans to fight back- CONSUME NOTHING)

[takashi]

@suspectdevice

If you haven't already read Pynchon's Against the Day you might enjoy it

[thollandpe]

Break down the American youth vote by gender… you already know how that went- the young men are not alright.

Well understated. And right now as our current regime welcomes two self-described misogynist influencers, who are wanted for multiple sex crimes in Romania and the UK, into our country. The common thread I see is that the Tates, the Head Orange Potato in Charge, and vice potato Vance all have a beef with a young female climate activist.

Such sad little insecure men, we gotta protect our kids from them. The boys and the girls.

[suspectdevice]

@suspectdevice

If you haven't already read Pynchon's Against the Day you might enjoy it

Now, just to be clear, you aren’t one of my ex-girlfriends, right? 😉
Thanks for the recommendation!

My reading time these days is mostly re-reading Lenin’s What Is To Be Done.

1901, it’s so hot right now.

[echappist]

Thanks to Ecahappist for wading through the data on german voting trends- now parse it by age and gender, will ya? Break down the American youth vote by gender… you already know how that went- the young men are not alright.

Comparing Germany (with actual democracy, coalition governments and a functional system of governance and laws on political contributions) to America(two far-right parties, Citizens United), is kind of a red herring.

IIRC, you are the one who introduced results of the German election into this thread (about American politics), and you are the one who made the really shoddy statement about Die Linke having “won” the under-30 vote. I didn’t ask you to retract or to admit to mistake, and the aims of my posts were to correct and provide context to your otherwise shoddy post. It’s rather risible for you to call this discussion “red herring” when you are the one who brought it into discussion in the first place.

And no, I’m not going to break down anything more, given that my posts and articles to which I linked already did so.

As you really aren’t engaging in good faith (I get it, right-leaning edgelords do the same, relying on rhetorical flourishes and bravura rather than facts), I’m afraid it would be poor use of my time to engage further.

[BBB]

I hate to be a pedant, but the thread is headed "The direction of society lately" and was started in response to the fairly brazen shooting of a health care company CEO in the street. That people have a beef with the behaviour of corporates is not limited to the US.

Of course politics, the economy and the behaviour of companies are all very much linked and hence discussion has drifted to politics. It is not, nor should it be, expressly limited to US politics. Tariffs, trade issues, immigration, war in the Ukraine, the behaviour of men, gender issues etc etc are very much global issues. Likewise, the drift to the right (as shown in the US election and the recent German election, and no doubt the forthcoming Australian federal election). Given historical examples, the drift to the right should concern us all.

[claritycycler]

WTF, its hard to imagine a worse outcome than just occurred(noon 2/28/24) at the White House, trump and jd full on lackeys for putin, broadcast live to the world, our allies(if we still have any) are "WTF, how do deal with the US now?", a full on historical shit show by trump and jd.

[takashi]

Why does Trump continue to fellate Putin?

Incredible that people keep wondering IF he is a Russian asset.

CMON!

[Mabouya]

What a bunch of goons. What an embarrassment to this country.

One can only hope they get their comeuppance soon.

[echappist]

What a bunch of goons. What an embarrassment to this country.

One can only hope they get their comeuppance soon.

This is pretty much comparable to a protection racket…

I understand that the U.S. doesn’t have such a good track record (see fomenting insurrection in Panama, so that it would declare independence from Colombia), but this is quite galling to see.

[BBB]

What was more pathetic was the moron reporter who queried the absence of a suit and tie. Yet, Musk wore a tee shirt, trench coat and cap to a cabinet meeting. Hopeless.

[GrantM]

What was more pathetic was the moron reporter who queried the absence of a suit and tie.

It was pathetic, but also ignorant. Has everyone not watched Zelensky wear olive Ukraine military clothing for the last 3 years?
He didn't come to DC to pitch them cosmetics from a powerpoint presentation. The man's country is at war. The reporter's smarmy followup
seemed to miss Zelensky's response that he'll wear a nice suit when the war ends.

-g

[kdawg]

Why does Trump continue to fellate Putin?

Incredible that people keep wondering IF he is a Russian asset.

CMON!

It’s so weird. As an interested outside I look back at the “reds under the bed” stuff as pretty bonkers - but how what appears to be the same sorts of political folks has turned into this is really weird. I have no idea how they sleep at night.

[Mark Walberg]

Why does Trump continue to fellate Putin?

Incredible that people keep wondering IF he is a Russian asset.

CMON!

After watching this yesterday, Putin had one word, “Checkmate”. Russian TV today is celebrating, saying they’ve won. Trump is saying "Putin is where the power is, and we need to be friends. We can push that fat Korean guy out easily. " The conservative newspeak is now, "Maybe Russia is not so bad after all".

[htwoopup]

It was pathetic, but also ignorant. Has everyone not watched Zelensky wear olive Ukraine military clothing for the last 3 years?
He didn't come to DC to pitch them cosmetics from a powerpoint presentation. The man's country is at war. The reporter's smarmy followup
seemed to miss Zelensky's response that he'll wear a nice suit when the war ends.

-g

Sir Winston Churchill arriving at the White House during WWII.

[echappist]

What was more pathetic was the moron reporter who queried the absence of a suit and tie. Yet, Musk wore a tee shirt, trench coat and cap to a cabinet meeting. Hopeless.

It was pathetic, but also ignorant. Has everyone not watched Zelensky wear olive Ukraine military clothing for the last 3 years?
He didn't come to DC to pitch them cosmetics from a powerpoint presentation. The man's country is at war. The reporter's smarmy followup
seemed to miss Zelensky's response that he'll wear a nice suit when the war ends.

-g

I grew up in a totalitarian dictatorship and emigrated at a young age for the U.S. Press freedom at my country of birth went from non-existent, to somewhat opened, and now trending toward non-existent again. At least when I was in the country, the reporting was sincere but severely lacking in terms of facts (not that anyone within the country would know, unless s/he listened to Voice of America or BBC on shortwave).

I came to the U.S. in the 90's, and it was refreshing. CNN was quality back then, and even the various network TV was decent. This was before the proliferation of Fox News and such. The loaded question addressed to Zelensky was made by Brian Glenn a "reporter" for so-called Real America's Voice and the significant other of Majorie Taylor Greene. With actual news agency denied access, the White House Press Corp is now filled with such characters. It was such a manipulative gotcha and a prime example of metaphorical red herring, as it was cynically used as a snide jab, while ignoring the actual substance.

So there we have it, purposely false but sincere reporting in one-party rule system, and technically true but cynical and irrelevant reporting in a free society, intended for the consumption of the faithful no wiser than the ignorant masses in an one-party rule country.

---------------------------------

It’s so weird. As an interested outside I look back at the “reds under the bed” stuff as pretty bonkers - but how what appears to be the same sorts of political folks has turned into this is really weird. I have no idea how they sleep at night.

Influence and money outweighs any other considerations, and these are merely the end goals of unfettered libertarianism, guiding principle for many such people. And with bully tendencies in some, they get to go power-trip as well while they punch down. That is, until they themselves are victimized, at which point they bemoan losing their own dignity when they would never extend that same concern to others (see the numerous women who had no trouble parroting party line until they themselves were wronged by Roger Ailes).

[thollandpe]

"The scene at the White House yesterday took my breath away. I would never have believed that we would ever have to defend Ukraine from the United States."
--Frank-Walter Steinmeier, President of Germany

[BBB]

Sir Winston Churchill arriving at the White House during WWII.

Winston did enjoy a bit of cosplay!