2020 Political Chatter

[robin3mj]

Also not a lwayer, but there is this:

https://www.upcounsel.com/legal-def-sanctions-rule-11

Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 11 provides that a district court may sanction attorneys or parties who submit pleadings for an improper purpose or that contain frivolous arguments or arguments that have no evidentiary support.

(1) it is not being presented for any improper purpose, such as to harass, cause unnecessary delay, or needlessly increase the cost of litigation;

(2) the claims, defenses, and other legal contentions are warranted by existing law or by a nonfrivolous argument for extending, modifying, or reversing existing law or for establishing new law;

(3) the factual contentions have evidentiary support or, if specifically so identified, will likely have evidentiary support after a reasonable opportunity for further investigation or discovery; and

(4) the denials of factual contentions are warranted on the evidence or, if specifically so identified, are reasonably based on belief or a lack of information.

[theflashunc]

I’d like to hear a response from an actual attorney with actual experience (in a US courtroom) in this kind of lawsuit. What we (cyclists who are not lawyers or judges,at least I am no lawyer or judge) think should happen is not really relevant.

Anyone here ever argue a case in front of a court? It would be instructive to hear of the experience.

Covered enough federal court cases to know that judges do not like having their, or the court's, time wasted. And yesterday seems like a textbook time waster.

[BBB]

Sorry Saab. I am a lawyer, just not a US one. I'm only speaking from my experience and going to court making accusations without proof would be wildly unprofessional. You also have to be extremely careful making allegations of fraud and making such an allegation without a proper basis could result in a rap over the knuckles professionally. I suppose a broad allegation of electoral fraud is slightly different as it is not personal, but the basic proposition remains, if you are going to make a broad allegation you need to back it up with actual evidence. Finally Judges do speak behind closed doors and the conduct in question is likely to lead to the advocate getting a bad reputation.

[Saab2000]

Sorry Saab. I am a lawyer, just not a US one. I'm only speaking from my experience and going to court making accusations without proof would be wildly unprofessional. You also have to be extremely careful making allegations of fraud and making such an allegation without a proper basis could result in a rap over the knuckles professionally. I suppose a broad allegation of electoral fraud is slightly different as it is not personal, but the basic proposition remains, if you are going to make a broad allegation you need to back it up with actual evidence. Finally Judges do speak behind closed doors and the conduct in question is likely to lead to the advocate getting a bad reputation.

Cool. I’m not a lawyer. I know different places have different customs and practices.

I had a lawyer on a flight one time who was flipping out because he missed a court date because of a bad weather delay. He should have gone to New York the day before or driven if it was so important. The implication was that the judge didn’t care why you didn’t make it, only that you missed court.

Thanks for clarifying. I’d love to hear more court gossip, at least as it pertains to the whiner-in-chief.

[htwoopup]

I can remember Giuliani giving a (paid) lecture at the university I was attending for my Master's degree - this would have been 2005-ish. At the time I was certainly aware of some controversies surrounding his policies (the "broken windows" stuff and all that) and I thought that, frankly, the whole "America's Mayor" thing from 9/11 was kind of overstated (any other public servant would have, most likely, done the same thing - that is, carry out the responsibilities of the office, although I'm certainly not being critical of him here).

My brother, a lawyer in NYC, assures me that who we see now is exactly who he has always been .... but man, it seems like such a different person compared to the 2005 Giuliani.

...

Edit: Or was the broken windows thing Bloomberg? Can't recall my mayors properly...

As a NY'er I have NEVER considered Rudy a good mayor much less America's Mayor. All Rudy did was "clean up" the window washer busker types by getting them arrested/ harassed to move out of the white privilege areas. His police force did NOT lower crime...they cooked the statistics and changed how they were reported to make it look like he fixed things but there was not a change in the crime only the reported numbers...definitions were changed to make crimes less odious in the papers. Do not forget that his police chief, Bernie Kerik, went to jail. Which was right after Rudy had recommended him to run Homeland Security.

More importantly, having lost many friends from CEO's to firemen in 9/11 I have always held Rudy personally responsible for a good deal of the loss to the uniformed services. Remember, there was a previous terrorist truck bombing at the WTC. AFTER that, Rudy insisted that the Emergency Manpower office/ coordination facilities be moved INTO the WTC even though the cops, the FBI, etc etc etc recommended hard against it because they did not want their nerve center to be located IN the number one potential target. It is Rudy's fault that they were operating without proper coordination. Granted it was a shitshow and given how NYPD and NYFD are they would have been running in anyway etc but it would have been at least a bit better of a managed response.

When my daughter met Rudy when she was 11 (because he wanted a photo op with her due to a charity thing she did) she got into a fight with him that continued until as recently as last month (19 years later). She instantly disliked him and felt he was a total user and didn't "get" it...like a year later when they were giving speeches at the same event and she asked what would happen to the homeless people on her walk to school and he said he would have the cops clean up the street and she said no I want them to get help and he didn't understand what the kid was talking about or didn't care because he only had one programmed response. I digress, but he really is not what he has been built up into seeming. I know some will say that is all politicians, but from my experience a good number of them do do the right thing unlike Rudy.

[ColonelJLloyd]

Thanks for sharing that, Jon.

Notable coincidence that after my post from earlier this afternoon, but I watched S11:E1 of Law & Order tonight and there's Rudy himself.

[Too Tall]

This is all about the two Senate races in Georgia. If they concede, they are worried that Trump voters won’t show up for the runoff election in January. They need Trump voters to stay engaged just a bit longer. However it still looks like they may have a turnout problem. Democrats on the other hand do not.

Pssst, let's not discount the long game (grift). Funding the future DJT campaign to hold American in rapt attention won't come cheap.

Jorn is right, we need to lighten up Francis. I'll self impose a bicycle thread tax. For every snarky political statement I have to balance it out with actually bicycle ride content.

Hold me to it.

[bironi]

I rode today with a couple buddies in very heavy rain and cool temperatures with strong winds.
We suffered, we endured.
You are welcome to move this post elsewhere.
By

[vertical_doug]

A part of me still worries that the goal here is not to argue the election result as a matter of law, but to delay and slow everything so it can become a matter of politics. At that point, Trump's chances to steal the election dramatically increase.
Unlikely, yes, but remember, we always knew there was no bridge too far, and this is proving it.

A second note, while we are focused on the election innuendo, the scorched earth policy is off and running. . . The amount of damage he can do by January 20 is pretty large. If anything, once he loses, it will just accelerate.

[HorsCat]

He has lost. He is already both burning the house down and salting the earth in case his (for now) non violent coup attempt doesn’t succeed. It’s not about winning in court; it is about winning the politics, and on that front he is succeeding, with - apparently - 70%+ of Republicans believing Biden’s victory is fraudulent. Almost two weeks since it was clear that Biden won and the one person who could shut this charade down - ie, Moscow Mitch - hasn’t said a thing other than to tacitly support Chump. Anyone who thinks this is just for shits and giggles or to juice R turnout for the GA senate races hasn’t been paying attention. These pieces of shit are dead set on another four years of Trump and will stop at nothing to try make it happen.

[fastupslowdown]

So what does the judge do? Dismiss? I don't know anything about court rooms or proceedings or lawsuits but I'm pretty sure most judges don't like the court's time wasted.

Are there any attorneys in the house who can speak to how this process would work? It seems to me that they're trying to get one thing to stick to kick it up to the SCOTUS.

They do get dismissed. Trump's lawyers have either seen their cases dismissed , withdrawn or simply lost 28 times. They had one minor victory of little consequence. They are abusing the court system , that much is clear. All of Trump's "normal cadre" of lawyers are not taking part in this one. They will continue to lose. They make the same specious claims , not grounded in fact or law repeatedly. The goal seems clear, sow doubt in the election results, weaken Joe Biden's Presidency , help Trump raise money for his next grift and allow Trump to say he didn't lose but that the election was stolen. Apparently Rudy is working with Bannon on this. The legal experts are unanimous in that the recounts and legal challenges will not succeed.

[ides1056]

Re: Rudy

Early on in his stint as mayor I found myself surrounded by police as I entered Riverside Park with my daughter on my back and two dogs that I had unleashed. One officer had a video camera. It was disturbing to be set up this way. But this was my neighborhood and I was well-known, so soon the police were surrounded by friends with dogs who were irate and vocal, demanding I be left alone. So the cops relented and went off to find a softer target.

[HorsCat]

From the "president's" mouth just now: "Important News Conference today by lawyers on a very clear and viable path to victory. Pieces are very nicely falling into place. RNC at 12:00 P.M."

I'm old enough to remember when we were told to take him seriously but not literally. I'm also old enough to remember when "serious and responsible Republicans" would act as a bulwark in defense of democracy and would not kowtow to his every whim. And I remember talk of the "genius" of the Constitution with its built-in checks and balances.

[Matthew Strongin]

From the "president's" mouth just now: "Important News Conference today by lawyers on a very clear and viable path to victory. Pieces are very nicely falling into place. RNC at 12:00 P.M."

I'm old enough to remember when we were told to take him seriously but not literally. I'm also old enough to remember when "serious and responsible Republicans" would act as a bulwark in defense of democracy and would not kowtow to his every whim. And I remember talk of the "genius" of the Constitution with its built-in checks and balances.

In other fun news, the election board in that contentious county in Michigan flip-flopped back to not certifying the vote.

[SpeedyChix]

In other fun news, the election board in that contentious county in Michigan flip-flopped back to not certifying the vote.

I'm hopeful that all it is will be yet another bit for the orange one to tweet about. Perhaps to attempt to gain leverage at full state election confirmation. I'm getting real tired of this endless BS from the losing team.

""There is no legal mechanism for them to rescind their vote," Wimmer said Thursday. "Their job is done and the next step in the process is for the Board of State Canvassers to meet and certify.""
"The Board of State Canvassers, which would be charged with certifying the Wayne County results if the county board did not act, is scheduled to meet Monday to certify election results statewide."

Seems that Trump reached out to Palmer Get off our lawn!!!!

From Michigan news:
https://www.freep.com/story/news/pol...nn/3775242001/

Meanwhile our governor (that woman from MI) had this to share:
Whitmer's press secretary, Tiffany Brown, released this statement to 7 Action News.
“Governor Whitmer doesn't have any time for partisan politics or people who don't wear masks, don't believe in science, and don't have a plan to fight this virus. Right now, she is focused on saving lives. The governor will continue to work hard for all 10 million Michiganders. This is about Michigan vs. COVID-19. Governor Whitmer doesn't care if you're a Trump Republican or a Biden Democrat. We are all in this together.”

[j44ke]

Right, once the county certifies, the results are out of their hands. Certification is also a budgetary benchmark I believe. Funds reserved for possible recounts or audits are no longer accessible after certification. Plus certification of results isn't about perfection. It merely says any errors or inconsistencies are within allowable ranges and would not change the outcome of the overall result. I suppose they could petition the State Board of Canvassers, but even that would be just one element in the State Board's decision whether to certify the election results statewide. Just as with the local level, they may look at any post-certification regret from a county board as having a negligible effect on the final outcome and therefore does not prevent certification of the statewide results even if unresolved.

The approach at this point is just to further erode the authority of the final results by creating a narrative that implies something fraudulent occurred, even though the process is functioning as it should and as it is constructed by state regulation.

[echappist]

In other fun news, the election board in that contentious county in Michigan flip-flopped back to not certifying the vote.

Is it because the two GOP officials on the election board claim that they didn't invoke "Simon Says" when they certified?

Madhouse. Not as mad as the Michigan domestic terrorists though.

Joking aside, what is the legal significance of the certification? I'd assume it's at least on par with something signed under oath? Have they opened themselves on charges of perjury?

An article on the flip-flop here. Apparently, the incumbent in the White House personally called Ms. Palmer? How is that not considered to be interference? As for the other GOP official on the board

President Trump called a GOP canvassing board member in Wayne County who announced Wednesday she wanted to rescind her decision to certify the results of the presidential election, the member said in a message to The Washington Post Thursday.

“I did receive a call from President Trump, late Tuesday evening, after the meeting,” Monica Palmer, one of two Republican members of the four-member Wayne County canvassing board, told The Post. “He was checking in to make sure I was safe after hearing the threats and doxing that had occurred.”

The call came after an hours-long meeting on Tuesday in which the four-member canvassing board voted to certify the results of the Nov. 3 election, a key step toward finalizing President-elect Joe Biden’s victory in the state.

In affidavits signed Wednesday evening, the two GOP members of the four-member Wayne County Board of Canvassers allege they were improperly pressured into certifying the election and accused Democrats of reneging on a promise to audit votes in Detroit.

In an interview, Palmer estimated that she talked with Trump for about two minutes Tuesday. She said she felt no pressure to change her vote from him.

“His concern was about my safety and that was really touching. He is a really busy guy and to have his concern about my safety was appreciated,” she told The Post.

Asked if they discussed the presidential vote count, she said:

“It’s hard for me to describe. There was a lot of adrenalin and stress going on. There were general comments about different states but we really didn’t discuss the details of the certification.”

As for Mr. Hartmann, the other GOP canvassing board member, he's spewed conspiracy theories and racist rants before. I wonder what the term of his appointment is.

On November 7, the day major news outlets projected Joe Biden President-elect, Hartmann posted on Facebook, "I'm reading the news on how great things are now that Biden and Harris are in as declared by the MSM. What will happen if it doesn't happen once the official results are tallied? I wouldn't sell the farm yet."
Later that day, he wrote, "I'm not really one to promote conspiracy theories" but told his Facebook friends to look up "hammer and scorecard" a conspiracy theory that has been widely debunked but did go viral after the election.
On November 9, Hartmann furthered a conspiracy theory pushed by some Trump supporters that suggested the timing of the announcement of a Covid-19 vaccine was politically motivated: "As predicted: Not even a week after the election and they've now got a covid vaccine that's 90% effective."
CNN has reached out to Hartmann for comment through social media, email and through phone numbers listed as being associated with him.
In October, he shared a link to an OAN video that pushed a widely debunked conspiracy theory that claims hospitals are inflating the Covid-19 death-toll by falsely reporting deaths from the virus.
"Eye Opener. Do the math. How much were Hospitals overpaid by falsely reporting?" Hartmann wrote.
That post was labeled as false by Facebook's fact-checkers.
Hartmann has shared multiple videos from OAN on Facebook over the past few weeks. OAN is a conservative cable network that the President has been promoting heavily in recent days as it continues to share misinformation undermining the integrity of the election.
The relevance of Hartmann's Facebook posts in light of the deadlock in Michigan were flagged earlier on Twitter by Del Quentin Wilber, a reporter for the Los Angeles Times.
When Obama was in office, Hartmann's shared a series of racist posts about the President on Facebook that were still online on Wednesday.

The images in the posts equated Obama to a criminal and an Islamic terrorist.
Facebook removed one of the posts -- which equated Obama to an Islamic terrorist -- after the company was contacted by CNN on Wednesday. Facebook spokesperson Andy Stone said the post was removed under Facebook's hate speech policies. The company did not immediately provide comment about the other posts.

[72gmc]

From the "president's" mouth just now: "Important News Conference today by lawyers on a very clear and viable path to victory. Pieces are very nicely falling into place. RNC at 12:00 P.M."

People who are Gratuitous with Title Case are Usually Overstating Something.

[HorsCat]

People who are Gratuitous with Title Case are Usually Overstating Something.

I hope I'm wrong but if you ask me to give odds on Trump finding a way to stay in power I would say, as of this writing, '50/50.' And I don't say that because of the merits of his case (there are none) but because of his capacity for and Republicans' / conservatives' / MAGAfokkers' openness to fascism.

[Too Tall]

A part of me still worries that the goal here is not to argue the election result as a matter of law, but to delay and slow everything so it can become a matter of politics. At that point, Trump's chances to steal the election dramatically increase.
Unlikely, yes, but remember, we always knew there was no bridge too far, and this is proving it.

A second note, while we are focused on the election innuendo, the scorched earth policy is off and running. . . The amount of damage he can do by January 20 is pretty large. If anything, once he loses, it will just accelerate.

This guy gets it.

Later, going for a bike ride.