What should a show bike be..revisited

I know the original post was closed so forgive me for wanting to comment but I came into it late.
Seems like poo pooing the awards for various reasons is pretty popular.
I'll feel a lot more convinced of the poo pooer's sincerity when one of them wins an award in NAHBS 2010 and refuses the award citing their principles.
Personally I would be excited and honored to win an award and just just try to believe that I won because my work was judged as fairly as possible to be the best in that category at that particular time.

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Originally Posted by K Bedford

I know the original post was closed so forgive me for wanting to comment but I came into it late.
Seems like poo pooing the awards for various reasons is pretty popular.
I'll feel a lot more convinced of the poo pooer's sincerity when one of them wins an award in NAHBS 2010 and refuses the award citing their principles.
Personally I would be excited and honored to win an award and just just try to believe that I won because my work was judged as fairly as possible to be the best in that category at that particular time.

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i won 2 awards at nahbs 1.0 without even knowing there were
awards in the works. as a result of that, and kinda sorta being
blindsided by the ordeal, i refrained from "entering" any bicycles
in any nahbs awards since atmo.

Looking over the show pics I saw a bike that was clearly unsafe. Regardless of workmanship, a bike needs to be fundamentally sound first.

I've won an award every year at NAHBS but always refuse them. I take care of this with the show promoter before hand so there is no public humiliation. :boy_hug::girl_hug:

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Originally Posted by K Bedford

I know the original post was closed so forgive me for wanting to comment but I came into it late.
Seems like poo pooing the awards for various reasons is pretty popular.
I'll feel a lot more convinced of the poo pooer's sincerity when one of them wins an award in NAHBS 2010 and refuses the award citing their principles.
Personally I would be excited and honored to win an award and just just try to believe that I won because my work was judged as fairly as possible to be the best in that category at that particular time.

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Like Richard, I won multiple awards in the first and second years of NAHBS.

In those years, I found that awards offered nothing but distraction from what was important (for me, the show and (imo) for our little industry) and have not entered my bikes in any of the three years since.

This year in Indy, there was no "sign up" for builders to choose whether they want their bikes to be entered, or not. This presents the exact issue that you bring up, Kelly: does a builder deny an award after winning? That's a tough position. In my case, as Steve Hampsten said I was left out of the running, likely because he and Douglas knew how I felt about that aspect of the show. If Don keeps the the same "no sign up" system for future shows, a builder could make it known to the judges that they were not taking part in the awards.

For those that have been vocal about not having awards and have literally or just by expressing their feelings taken themselves out of any awards contention I gotta have respect for that.
Maybe as a newcomer to the show I haven't been exposed to all the behind the scenes stuff so with my limited exposure maybe I'm just naive thinking that being recognized in the form of an award voted for by your peers has some validity.
Even though I've been building for near thirty years I'm still a babe in the woods when it comes to public and show exposure.
I'm also realistic enough to realize that while I have ultimate respect for the purist attitude to what we do, building fine handcrafted bikes, the bottom is we also have to sell a certain amount of these bikes to be able to pay our bills and continue to do this thing we certainly love to do and being able to display an award from a respected show on our websites can't hurt.
I suppose it's possible I would feel differently if I had more than a few month waiting list but until then I'll welcome all the positive press I can get and if I'm lucky enough to get that in the form of an award then that's cool.

kelly you have forgotten more (and been exposed to WAY more) than most
of the awards winners - as well as fellow nahbsters, will ever know. keep it
all in perspective. you've made a life in framebuilding. in the same time you've
given to the trade, most of the trophies that have been handed out since
nahbs 1.0 will be lost and found many times, and not by the original recipient.
they are just things, and all the justification you need is right here (cue shot
of k.b. using forefinger to point to his temple area atmo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by K Bedford

For those that have been vocal about not having awards and have literally or just by expressing their feelings taken themselves out of any awards contention I gotta have respect for that.
Maybe as a newcomer to the show I haven't been exposed to all the behind the scenes stuff so with my limited exposure maybe I'm just naive thinking that being recognized in the form of an award voted for by your peers has some validity.
Even though I've been building for near thirty years I'm still a babe in the woods when it comes to public and show exposure.
I'm also realistic enough to realize that while I have ultimate respect for the purist attitude to what we do, building fine handcrafted bikes, the bottom is we also have to sell a certain amount of these bikes to be able to pay our bills and continue to do this thing we certainly love to do and being able to display an award from a respected show on our websites can't hurt.
I suppose it's possible I would feel differently if I had more than a few month waiting list but until then I'll welcome all the positive press I can get and if I'm lucky enough to get that in the form of an award then that's cool.

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There was much discussion about flaws in the awards process. Bikes/frames were not submitted by builders.
{now that is a big problem!}
What is the judging critera?
Bling, function, innovation, loads of wild details, real quality of the work, good old mates stuff I personally like?
An average bike might win an award because the rest of bikes were below average. This does not in my opinion lift the standard or reward the true skills of the builder.
Is this getting across to the public what we really need to be getting across.
I personally would not enter a bike again until the critera of judging is understood by builders and judges.
As it stands, I say.
but for a "People's choice"
No awards and let NAHBS be what it needs to be for the builder's future.

My feelings are about the process of the awards!
Not at all to take away from those who gain an award.

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Originally Posted by e-RICHIE

kelly you have forgotten more (and been exposed to WAY more) than most
of the awards winners - as well as fellow nahbsters, will ever know. keep it
all in perspective. you've made a life in framebuilding. in the same time you've
given to the trade, most of the trophies that have been handed out since
nahbs 1.0 will be lost and found many times, and not by the original recipient.
they are just things, and all the justification you need is right here (cue shot
of k.b. using forefinger to point to his temple area atmo.

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I am in agreement with Richie
I will add
"Persevere"

Fellow builders,
Thanks so much for you insight, it's invaluable and I get what you're saying.
After starting this post last night I started thinking about the judging process and started wondering how much involvement the builders themselves had originally in the criteria used for the judging.
Maybe this is a discussion that could be had.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by K Bedford

Fellow builders,
Thanks so much for you insight, it's invaluable and I get what you're saying.
After starting this post last night I started thinking about the judging process and started wondering how much involvement the builders themselves had originally in the criteria used for the judging.
Maybe this is a discussion that could be had.

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my belief system is that judging at all is inherently wrong.
not illegal, or unethical, or immoral. just wrong. build for
yourself and then judge. rinse. repeat. atmo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by K Bedford

Fellow builders,
Thanks so much for you insight, it's invaluable and I get what you're saying.
After starting this post last night I started thinking about the judging process and started wondering how much involvement the builders themselves had originally in the criteria used for the judging.
Maybe this is a discussion that could be had.

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I have a different slant on this subject than e-richie
I would be happy to see no awards at all
but
maybe
just maybe
one for the public to cruise along the booths having fun, picking one out some thing for "Peoples Choice"
because people like doing this.


but if there really has to be trophies handed out then

http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum...0&postcount=46

Hi guys-

I've only been to the PDX show so far, so take this with a grain of salt.

It seems to me that "real" awards (for whatever they are worth) should have clear criteria, and be based both on every bike in the show and the "theoretical ideal" as I understand Dazza's discussion. "Best of" in a game where some players opt out is an interesting concept.

That said, does it really matter? Not winning wouldn't detract from my bike, the effort I put in, or the result that the customer would ride home (just as winning wouldn't enhance any of those things). I'm not sure I see the awards as detracting, divisive, or counter the framebuilder love fest concept. That may just be because I don't take much stock in them, but I tend to view them as fun for some aisle walkers, magazines and the press, and a potential marketing piece for the winners.

The fear that some builders will (are?) start making "concept bikes" to win awards with says more about those builders then the awards or their particular impact on the show and the state of frame building.

*Edit- As far as I'm concerned we could chuck em (the awards), but if DW keeps them I'm not feeling put off (and I'd be all bloggy if I happened to take one home).