OK - please discuss thoughts on/merit of types handbuilt bicycles: "stock", "production" "semi-production" "semi-custom" "bespoke" "limited run" and why not just "handbuilt"........GO.
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OK - please discuss thoughts on/merit of types handbuilt bicycles: "stock", "production" "semi-production" "semi-custom" "bespoke" "limited run" and why not just "handbuilt"........GO.
for me, the distinction between "stock" and "production" is the "stock" bike comes from a pre-existing set of specs but still might be produced one-off. To me, "production" is doing a run of X number of bikes (X being greater than 1) and getting everything set up to make that X number as efficiently as possible.
I don't really know what I would call "semi-production". Maybe this would be doing a bunch of sub-assemblies as efficiently as possible that could then be used later for "stock", "semi-custom" or "bespoke" frames.
I've really embraced e-richie's thoughts on "custom" vs. "made to measure". Over the past few years, I've done far fewer "customs" as I have developed a back bone and started to say "no" if what the customer "wants" does not fit into the model of what I think is the right bike to build. I honestly don't really know if "bespoke" is "custom" or "made to measure" since I am not English and I have seen it used both ways when referring to clothing.
http://www.rigbyandpeller.com/compan...o_measure.aspx - sounds more like "made to measure".
vs
http://www.babygranduk.com/bespoke - sounds more like "custom".
I think "handbuilt" is just too vague inthe global sense. That can mean so many things. For the folks who frequent this place it has a meaning, generally thought of as "us guys and gals" who make frame and forks one at a time. But for the cycling population (or the world population when talking about any consumer good) at large, it's a totally different picture. People "hand load" parts into machines that make frames. Is that not "handbuilt" to some extent? The lines are so blurry.
The "limited run" in my mind either constitutes 1) having limited availability of a part required for the job or 2) is only offered in limited numbers because the purveyor is sacrificing something (which can usually be boiled down to time and/or profit) to supply said good.
Clear as mud? Maybe :cheers:goggles would help.
I think stock, semi-production, production, limited run, & semi-custom can all be lumped into the same group.Quote:
Originally Posted by steve garro
Bespoke/Custom = built specifically for the needs/desires/fit of a single individual.
The accepted definition of "Handbuilt" as it pertains to NAHBS has changed over the years. It used to be that the frame/fork was made by the hands of one person. It's evolved into something more inclusive than that today and I'm unable to define its current meaning.
“We finish it off by using a synergistic combination of computer controlled manufacturing processes and old-world hand craftsmanship in producing the ultimate racing machine.”Found on an Australian web site selling imported Asian made carbon/alloy frames.
Translated it reads,
“Through cunning applications of new high-tech, greed-driven, and marketing-correct technology we have thoroughly removed any skilled-labour and knowledge in the Third-World manufacture of the "Ultimate Profit Machine"
I have lost the author of the translation??
Cheers Dazza:cool:
one has a perspective from their direction of view.Quote:
Originally Posted by steve garro
"Hand built"
Some times it is a silly term
Every thing and any thing is hand built, some one has to load the robot.
Some one has to touch the product being made.
An Ipod is hand made.....................................
My take with regards to frames in our world is
"hand built" ; the person who actually makes the frame with his or her hands has their name/brand on that frame.
They could be assisted by another set of hands.
If the name/brand that is on the frame and the actual person did not touch the frame, I call it factory built.
Example. A Colnago is factory built.
Independant frame builders hand make their products.
Others have explained the the production, bespoke etc
Cheers Dazza:cool:
i'm not going to help things here and i believe the line will always
be shades of grey, but if you/your brand exists to fill orders that
precede the build, you are one of us. if you make stuff for the LBS
world (or similar), even if you do "offer" a one-off, you're one of them.
for the record, i have long been of the belief that most of the big
houses can make a higher quality unit, albeit with less of that love
and soul shit, than many who toil in cold, dimly lit workshops. atmo
the romance that's part of the framebuilding lore is misplaced. some
folks make some beyond excellent frames regardless. many of these
cats do it for themselves first, not for their clients.
ducking.
hey, i really like the simplicity of that........Steve.Quote:
Originally Posted by e-RICHIE
Where do tailored frames come into play? :D
We could say that a truly custom bike is built for one person to suit that one person in every aspect from the aesthetics through to the geometry to satisfy what that person needs to be completely satisfied with that bike.
It could be said that a bike could be classified as custom bike even if it is just a derivative of an established model right down to the aesthetics but has been designed and built to fit a specific person and have ride characteristics desired by that person.......within reason of sound frame design.
I feel that stock and production bikes are so close that they should probably fall into the same category since they are, as was described in a previous post built for no one in particular without an existing order to some stock geometry to sell off the LBS's floor to be fit as close as possible by changing out components.
I have to say that the large majority of people fit "Stock" geometries quite well which is why reputable stock geometries exist as they've been developed and proven over many, many years by a lot of good frame builders and bike manufacturers.