Any American Ex-Pats here? We are heavily considering...

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Originally Posted by classtimesailer

If the rightward shift here is driving you out, which leftist countries would you feel comfortable defending.

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This is an interesting question. I'm a VFW... and, well, I feel like I've been had. So, I'm not keen on the idea of defending what is rather apparent systems of oppression. I certainly have no faith in the USA. The best I think I can do is teach my daughter how to navigate the world carefully, how to fend for herself in all aspects of surviving within societies, and most of all how to live "light," in terms of obligation, possessions, etc.. in order to be flexible/mobile. She's 25 with an already good-looking pass-port.

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Originally Posted by GrantM

A lot must have changed since then. There is so much foreign owned real estate, now it's practically illegal for Canadians to own property in BC.

Joking aside, until last year, you simply put the ownership of the land into a corporation, or trust, and there was no way
for the government to know who owned it.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/real...y-real-estate/


-g

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All of this is changing globally and having real impacts on high end real estate since it was the preferred asset of choice for Money Launderers / illgotten plunder.

The boom in high-end real estate is suffering as a result. In NYC, they change the laws so you cannot buy an apartment with cash through a shell without declaring the UBO. Since then, the top end has been soft and getting softer.

London is now using UWO (undeclared wealth orders) for supicious transactions. I think there are a host of empty buildings in London which will eventually fall subject to this. The financial system and governments turned a blind eye to this kind of abuse for too long.

I hope post-Brexit in a dash for cash, the UK doesn't decide to reverse course and become a haven for more dirty money.

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Originally Posted by vertical_doug

Don't read the brochure, this is not how it is. This is how it is:

1. The Honeymoon- everything is new, and life is kind of wonderful. (this period can be very short like when you find yourself in Kinshasa.)
2. Frustration- yeap, it hits you, you are not in Kansas anymore. It sucks. This can last for a while.
3. Adaption - you may get here, but that's not guaranteed. I know people who never make it here
4. Acceptance - yeap, you figured the new home and yourself out. You may get here, you may not, but when you least expect it, you find yourself back at #2 .


Now here is the best part- your significant other gets to experience this independentedly from you. You may live together, you may be married for a long time, but that does not guarantee they will experience it like you. More importantly, if you are an american woman, many places suck a lot more.

The concept of amenities is very American.

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This is 100% spot on.

I've lived in Southern Europe, and even there, you go through exactly this process. Efficiency or getting things done (I'm literally trying to give you my money, just let me), consumer rights (want to return something? Uhhh, no. Defective part? Nope. Cancel your cell service or cable? Good luck), bureaucracy, legal system (don't even think about challenging a parking ticket, etc.), racism, are all very, very different.

Of course, there are many pros. Less stress, happier people, stronger communities, better quality food, ridiculously awesome parties, etc. but it's a real shift and most Americans aren't ready for it.

If you're just leaving because of American politics or social issues, you will quickly find out just how good we have it.

I don't know if this has been said, but consider what other ex-pats are moving there too. I can't speak of various countries mentioned, but we all know that a retiree will be surrounded by very different people in Miami or New Orleans or Santa Barbara or Bend, OR.

Also, you will be known by your flock. I've heard of places in Spain where all ex-pats are hated because they do such a good job of exemplifying the ugly British tourist.

You will never escape your college/university alumni association.

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Originally Posted by j44ke

You will never escape your college/university alumni association.

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I think I’ve shaken them. No contact or solicitations of any sort for years here.

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Originally Posted by Saab2000

I think I’ve shaken them. No contact or solicitations of any sort for years here.

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Better call a doctor.

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Originally Posted by Sino

you will quickly find out just how good we have it.

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I lived in the US for over a decade but can't agree with that sentiment. The point is that it's not a universal sentiment so we shouldn't presume that Martin will reach the same conclusion as you did. That is not at all saying that your conclusion is invalid, just that it was yours, based on your particular experience and outlook, and was valid for you but not necessarily for others.

BTW, consumer rights in the EU are far superior to those in the US. Perhaps your seller was less accommodating, but that's not a reflection of the regulatory framework. Yes, it's often a negotiation when perhaps it shouldn't be, but throwing around words like "rights" and "law" won't get you very far in many countries other than the US. Actually, it's likely to be counterproductive.

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Originally Posted by Chik

I lived in the US for over a decade but can't agree with that sentiment. The point is that it's not a universal sentiment so we shouldn't presume that Martin will reach the same conclusion as you did. That is not at all saying that your conclusion is invalid, just that it was yours, based on your particular experience and outlook, and was valid for you but not necessarily for others.

BTW, consumer rights in the EU are far superior to those in the US. Perhaps your seller was less accommodating, but that's not a reflection of the regulatory framework. Yes, it's often a negotiation when perhaps it shouldn't be, but throwing around words like "rights" and "law" won't get you very far in many countries other than the US. Actually, it's likely to be counterproductive.

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Dumb question, but have you lived in Southern Europe?

Theory and reality of rights, and real recourses to achieve those rights, are very different. Buying, renting, having repairs done, getting paid for work, etc. are all very, very different.

I was simply expounding on the other person's post, yet I don't see you being contrarian to that...?

We should just agree if you know how to manipulate and beat the system, every place is good. If you don't know how to beat the system, every place sucks.

And just to be clear, every place has a system. You may just not know it.

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Originally Posted by vertical_doug

We should just agree if you know how to manipulate and beat the system, every place is good. If you don't know how to beat the system, every place sucks.

And just to be clear, every place has a system. You may just not know it.

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Not even necessarily know how to beat the system. Just know what it is and how it works. Knowing how to exist within the system. But yeah, this is pretty accurate. Just knowing basics of life like how to get gas, buy food, pay bills, etc. isn't always obvious without making a fool of ourselves. Some of us, speaking for myself only, make fools of ourselves in the best of circumstances. Put us out of our comfort zone and it can get way worse quickly.

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Originally Posted by Sino

Dumb question, but have you lived in Southern Europe?

Theory and reality of rights, and real recourses to achieve those rights, are very different. Buying, renting, having repairs done, getting paid for work, etc. are all very, very different.

I was simply expounding on the other person's post, yet I don't see you being contrarian to that...?

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Does the Provence qualify?

What do you mean by “contrarian”?

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Originally Posted by Chik

Does the Provence qualify?

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Geographically, I'd say it's on the border, but realistically, I'm going to say not really IMO. Especially for the purposes of OP, where he's asking about South America.

It is so much wealthier and developed compared to places like S. Italy, Spain, Greece, Malta, etc., the scope of service from so many years of prolonged ultra-wealthy, worldwide tourism makes it pretty unique, especially if you happen to be wealthy yourself.

Of course, I've visited, never lived there, but even compared to Barcelona we're talking about another class of services and general organization...and Barcelona tends to be pretty organized compared to a lot of Spain, and so on.

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Originally Posted by 9tubes

I've heard of places in Spain where all ex-pats are hated because they do such a good job of exemplifying the ugly British tourist.

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Youtube: Magaluf.

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Originally Posted by UnfilteredDregs

I'm a VFW... and, well, I feel like I've been had. So, I'm not keen on the idea of defending what is rather apparent systems of oppression.

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Spanish/Portuguese colonialism really never went away in Central and S. America. All you would be doing is changing teams from what you feel is the oppressed to the oppressors.

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Originally Posted by Sino

Youtube: Magaluf.

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Heck, even the English hate the English. Just go to Brighton in the summer to see why

or Soho on a Saturday night in the summer.

or any University town during Freshers week.

(clue: it all is tied to the toxic drinking culture.)

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Originally Posted by Sino

Geographically, I'd say it's on the border, but realistically, I'm going to say not really IMO. Especially for the purposes of OP, where he's asking about South America.

It is so much wealthier and developed compared to places like S. Italy, Spain, Greece, Malta, etc., the scope of service from so many years of prolonged ultra-wealthy, worldwide tourism makes it pretty unique, especially if you happen to be wealthy yourself.

Of course, I've visited, never lived there, but even compared to Barcelona we're talking about another class of services and general organization...and Barcelona tends to be pretty organized compared to a lot of Spain, and so on.

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Initially, I reacted to one specific point you had made. I confess that I haven't quite figured out your reply to my initial reaction, but I played along in the hopes that it might nonetheless end up being informative for Martin. Or, at least amusing.

There is money in the Provence, certainly unlike the depressed region up north just south of the border with Belgium, but I'm not sure if I would characterise the Provence as remarkably wealthy or "efficient". You might be thinking of a very small part that's usually featured in guide books and films. My daughter's kindergarten teacher and her hunter husband weren't exactly living the high life in their modest home that the husband built himself; the kennel for his gun dogs was almost as big as their house.

We used to summer in Apulia, in a rented house, so I'm not entirely unfamiliar with life further south. I'm not sure if things work materially differently down there compared to the South of France. France may have a bigger economy than its Mediterranean neighbours but doesn't function like Germany or Switzerland.

And to be honest, I'm not sure what the point is in discussing relative characteristics of these countries or specific cities. The recurring theme in this thread is the idea that Martin should try to find out the lay of the land first and then, once there, expect to operate according to local custom. We are talking in general terms.

Your fondness for "rights" has been noted, twice. What's relevant is that many countries function in other ways, often in ways that may appear to some as a loosey goosey system where people tend not to wave a copy of the contract as the first, second or even third means to resolve an issue, hence not becoming a litigious society. I don't wish to repeat what vertical_doug and Saab2000 already said succinctly and accurately a few posts prior, but such loosey goosey systems cut both ways. For example, instead of going through an expensive legal process, you could, in some instances, sit down with the village mayor for 10 minutes and conclude the matter, over a cup of frightfully bad coffee or a glass of vile brandy, to everyone's satisfaction. No tiresome arguments about this clause or that provision in the contract. No lawyers. Just two people trying to resolve an issue. Maybe there is a facilitator at hand, but not a litigator. Until, of course, it becomes a serious contentious matter.

Again, what I was reacting to is you positing that the US have it better than anywhere else, which necessarily assumes that everyone -- or every American including those that are contemplating leaving the US or have permanently settled in another country -- shares the same set of values and priorities as you. Perhaps that's not what you actually meant, but it seemed like it. That is all.

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Originally Posted by UnfilteredDregs

GTFOH.

This is a daunting prospect for the Wife and I to entertain and I am looking for legitimate resources with which to evaluate the possibilities.

We're looking at Belize & Panama, Panama City atm... nevertheless nothing is heavily weighted as yet.

Thanks in advance!

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I am currently at San Miguel de Allende, Mexico and i see lots of americanos. They seem to love living here. It´s the semi desert. It´s quite nice but a bit too calm for my own taste. Otoh couple friends here will move to Panama City: one of them has us citizenship but was raised in Panama.

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Originally Posted by Chik

Initially, I reacted to one specific point you had made. I confess that I haven't quite figured out your reply to my initial reaction, but I played along in the hopes that it might nonetheless end up being informative for Martin. Or, at least amusing.

There is money in the Provence, certainly unlike the depressed region up north just south of the border with Belgium, but I'm not sure if I would characterise the Provence as remarkably wealthy or "efficient". You might be thinking of a very small part that's usually featured in guide books and films. My daughter's kindergarten teacher and her hunter husband weren't exactly living the high life in their modest home that the husband built himself; the kennel for his gun dogs was almost as big as their house.

We used to summer in Apulia, in a rented house, so I'm not entirely unfamiliar with life further south. I'm not sure if things work materially differently down there compared to the South of France. France may have a bigger economy than its Mediterranean neighbours but doesn't function like Germany or Switzerland.

And to be honest, I'm not sure what the point is in discussing relative characteristics of these countries or specific cities. The recurring theme in this thread is the idea that Martin should try to find out the lay of the land first and then, once there, expect to operate according to local custom. We are talking in general terms.

Your fondness for "rights" has been noted, twice. What's relevant is that many countries function in other ways, often in ways that may appear to some as a loosey goosey system where people tend not to wave a copy of the contract as the first, second or even third means to resolve an issue, hence not becoming a litigious society. I don't wish to repeat what vertical_doug and Saab2000 already said succinctly and accurately a few posts prior, but such loosey goosey systems cut both ways. For example, instead of going through an expensive legal process, you could, in some instances, sit down with the village mayor for 10 minutes and conclude the matter, over a cup of frightfully bad coffee or a glass of vile brandy, to everyone's satisfaction. No tiresome arguments about this clause or that provision in the contract. No lawyers. Just two people trying to resolve an issue. Maybe there is a facilitator at hand, but not a litigator. Until, of course, it becomes a serious contentious matter.

Again, what I was reacting to is you positing that the US have it better than anywhere else, which necessarily assumes that everyone -- or every American including those that are contemplating leaving the US or have permanently settled in another country -- shares the same set of values and priorities as you. Perhaps that's not what you actually meant, but it seemed like it. That is all.

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I prefer to send a couple of very expensive Melons with an apology and we are good to go!

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Originally Posted by vertical_doug

I prefer to send a couple of very expensive Melons with an apology and we are good to go!

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Yeah, that works!

In a previous life, we had a running office joke where we would refer to the cost of things in melons: "Nice car, but 20 melons seems a bit pricey." "He spent 2 melons on his last trip!"