Structured training...

I am new to structured training. Throughout my 20’s and early 30’s, I could just go ride big miles, high volume... and could hang on, no problem. I race endurance type stuff on the MTB periodically, no road racing, but do ride road for training. I have a smart trainer and a power meter on the road bike. Several years ago I put some effort into learning power zones on the road bike with a focus on being faster overall.

I took about 22 months off road riding after a friend was seriously injured in a car/bike accident. Long story. Anyway, I am back on the road now, looking to regain prior fitness levels.

I see lots of development in the last 3-4 years in trainers, available apps, & training plans. Right now, I just use Zwift to run the trainer, and periodically I will go through their power-based ERG mode workouts, so I know that drill. I use Strava to track rides/efforts, just because it’s what everybody else uses.

I am looking into something more structured, with better data analysis tools. I am an engineer by trade, most would call me a very analytical, data-driven person. So I am looking to apply that methodology to training.

It looks like Strava Premium has some analysis tools. Zwift has some power based workouts. The others I see are Training Peaks, and TrainerRoad. Also Sufferfest. There is relatively minor cost incurred with each of them, it’s low enough that it isn’t really a concern with me. I don’t think I can justify the ~$300/mo for a coach to work with me personally, it makes more sense to me to get a basic training plan and go with it, and do my own analysis, at a cost of ~$20/mo.

Moral of the story: I am considering switching to Training Peaks for data analysis, and subscribing to TrainerRoad for workout planning. I guess the biggest reason for TrainerRoad is because a friend turned me on to their podcast and those guys seem fairly knowledgeable.

I am looking for a confirmation that these two pieces of software/workouts are a decent plan, and there are no obvious alternatives that I am missing? I am also going to work with a nutritionist on a meal plan, that is available for free at my place of work, and the nutritionist is a tri athlete and “gets it.” So I think I am covered from that aspect.

Thoughts? TIA

-Drew

TrainerRoad user here. I am happy with it and use their structured plans. They have also added lots of training analysis features and continue to add more. So much so that I dropped my paid subscription to Trainingpeaks, still have a free account. So I would encourage you to try TrainerRoad first, and see if their tools provide enough analysis and save some money. Send me a pm with your email if you would like a free month. I get nothing out of this, just happy to share my experience.

Only downside of TrainerRoad is there is very little "entertainment" to keep you engaged. I have been using movies, shows and some reading on easier days. But am planning to try Zwift as well.

I like the no-frills approach of Trainer Road. I have other devices to entertain me. Trainer Road is the business end; here's your workout, start the hurting, get faster. Or in my case don't slide back any further.

P.S. I don't know why I like that podcast so much. I don't care about any of the aero or weight weenie stuff they talk about but still enjoy listening.

I'm just about to complete the 2nd segment of base with TrainerRoad. It's been worth the $$ and the pain. I am faster than I would be if I was just logging miles... and I have more time to do other things.

Like others said its not entertainment software, its workout software.

I wish this existed 10 years ago. I think I would've been way more better at racing then.

I can send you a free month trial if you want. Just PM me your name and email address.

Thanks all. I usually listen to podcasts while on the trainer, it helps me think about something other than my legs screaming!

The long term plan is to eventually get away from TrainerRoad and build my own workouts with Training Peaks. I need to go through all the details and make sure TP can run the trainer, and do all the other things. TrainerRoad seems to advertise that they work with my trainer (newer KICKR), so I don’t see any issues there. Maybe I’ll run the free version of TP until I get to the point where I feel like I’m done with TrainerRoad, then switch off TR and use the paid version of TP.

For you guys that do a structured plan, how do you cope with trying to train on a group ride, outdoors? Do you just not try to train when you’re riding with others? I have never tried it, nor really thought about it... but it seems like it would be difficult to do, unless the whole rest of the group is at a similar fitness/speed level. Maybe I am missing something...

Thanks again!

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Originally Posted by KonaSS

Only downside of TrainerRoad is there is very little "entertainment" to keep you engaged. I have been using movies, shows and some reading on easier days. But am planning to try Zwift as well.

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Zwift is good if you “just ride.” The point is kind of lost if you try to do a power based workout... you might wind up on a recovery section of your workout right when Zwift gets to a big hill... then you’re climbing at 2mph and getting dropped. Then you’ll hit a hard section of the workout when Zwift goes downhill, and all of a sudden you’re doing 60 mph. Just my experience but I don’t really like running the power workouts with Zwift, it’s rather pointless unless you get off by seeing your little rider dude on a mythical course.

Enough that I am pretty sure I am going to drop my Zwift sub in favor of TP/TR, thus this thread...

I am really digging the video podcasts during trainer sessions. Gives my eyes something to do, along with my thinker, and helps me ignore the legs and just do it.

Just cancelled my Zwift subscription. I think I’ll have it for one more week before it runs out.

TrainingPeaks says it can send workouts to Wahoo head unit, which in turn drives the KICKR. Seems easy enough. Wahoo | TrainingPeaks

And while I use TrainerRoad, it can drive the KICKR directly.

Seems like the way forward is to use TrainerRoad in the interim, and use that to run the trainer. Then later on, build workouts in TP, dump them to ELEMNT, use that to drive KICKR.

Maybe...

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Originally Posted by Drew

Zwift is good if you “just ride.” The point is kind of lost if you try to do a power based workout... you might wind up on a recovery section of your workout right when Zwift gets to a big hill... then you’re climbing at 2mph and getting dropped. Then you’ll hit a hard section of the workout when Zwift goes downhill, and all of a sudden you’re doing 60 mph. Just my experience but I don’t really like running the power workouts with Zwift, it’s rather pointless unless you get off by seeing your little rider dude on a mythical course.

Enough that I am pretty sure I am going to drop my Zwift sub in favor of TP/TR, thus this thread...

I am really digging the video podcasts during trainer sessions. Gives my eyes something to do, along with my thinker, and helps me ignore the legs and just do it.

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You may know this but you can do trainer work outs in Zwift by selecting a workout when you are logging in. There a bunch or workouts built in or you can import other from other programs. Once you do this, you are no longer affected by the terrain. As you point out, you can not really ride with a group but generally there are enough people around that you could find someone that is doing something similar or you see often. One of the main things it does is to change display modes so that it is easy to see what zone you are supposed to be in and where you are within a workout. I get that it is silly doing all of this in a mythical place* but I find it much easier to do that then stare at a wall or try to watch/concentrate a regular show while tracking and doing a workout.

*After I stopped racing and took a decade off the bike I swore I would never sit on a trainer again. I also can not stand playing video games (perhaps I am just too old). But for some reason combining the two works for me.

You can also create custom workouts in TrainerRoad.

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Originally Posted by KonaSS

You can also create custom workouts in TrainerRoad.

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Thanks. I haven’t got that far yet with TR. maybe that is the long term solution.

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Originally Posted by KonaSS

You can also create custom workouts in TrainerRoad.

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Good tip. Have used the TR workout builder tool to create some of my favorite workouts in TR format.

It's very easy to use.

If folks enjoy the TR Podcast, Jonathan does a mountain bike oriented version with a partner. Called mtnbikepodcast. It's not weekly but similar low key vibe.

-Mark

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Originally Posted by Drew

For you guys that do a structured plan, how do you cope with trying to train on a group ride, outdoors? Do you just not try to train when you’re riding with others? I have never tried it, nor really thought about it... but it seems like it would be difficult to do, unless the whole rest of the group is at a similar fitness/speed level. Maybe I am missing something...

Thanks again!

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Some folks talk about doing "over-unders" by rotating in and out of the paceline but that seems dumb to me. I've always thought that if I'm riding with others I'm either doing something social or I'm racing.

When I did group rides I'd supplement one trainer workout with that. Something that would be similar to the effort on the ride. Same thing for Sunday crits or whatever.

Another TrainerRoad fan here. Use it with a Kickr. I have Zwift too but will not be renewing for two reasons.

First, as others have said, TrainerRoad is the business. For entertainment while on the Kickr I put on Netfilx. Second, I find the Zwift control of Kickr a bit klunky. It is a fun piece of software, but I'm more interested in smooth control of the hardware and the structured plans available on TrainerRoad.

For analysis, I've been on Training Peaks for a few years. For the last year or so, I've also tracked on Strava and use the Elevate plugin. I'm finding it's just about as useful for me as TP and may not renew that subscription next year. My plan is to track on both this year and make a decision after a solid year of training and analysis with both.

Just adding- "your own structured training" and group rides are usually not compatible-
Group rides tend to be the "anti-structure"- Guys like to smack it on every hill, show everyone else how hard they can pul, etc.

If you are going to train- Do it alone or with 1-2 other like minded individuals who give each other a bit of space.
If you re going to group ride- Don't plan structure for that day.

Now ten workouts in and quite happy with TrainerRoad. Thanks all for the nudges.

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Originally Posted by Drew

For you guys that do a structured plan, how do you cope with trying to train on a group ride, outdoors? Do you just not try to train when you’re riding with others? I have never tried it, nor really thought about it... but it seems like it would be difficult to do, unless the whole rest of the group is at a similar fitness/speed level. Maybe I am missing something...

Thanks again!

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Going into my third year with TrainerRoad and am coming out of my best CX season in four years after being consistent with their plans/structure. I don't really care about the entertainment value of Zwift; the sheer amount of stuff being presented on screen makes it terribly cluttered and that's an instant turn-off to a self-proclaimed minimalist. All I need to see is my target power, my actual power/cadence, and time remaining in the interval. I know that I'm on a trainer indoors and see no reason to pretend otherwise. I want to get on the bike, crush a one hour workout, and then get on with my evening.

Structured training and group rides don't really mix. Please don't be the person that gets to the head of the paceline and drills it at threshold when the ride is meant to be endurance/tempo. If you have a regular group you head out with, you could potentially tell them that you're going to do flyers off the front to get your work intervals in and then sit in to recover, but that may or may not go over well. Personally, I do the hard sessions solo on the trainer during the week and use the weekend team ride for long steady endurance miles to catch up on the social aspect that I miss from being stuck on the trainer. Most of the TR plans will have descriptive text for the weekend workouts that tell you how to sub in an outdoor group ride.

For entertainment, I just listen to music. When I was living in a much colder climate, I used to lead spin classes on the side to keep myself riding during the winter so I have a pretty vast collection. I currently have three evolving playlists for quick-tempo sweetspot/threshold work, steady tempo climbing, and a mostly metal based list for Vo2 work. It's easy to search Spotify for music with your desired BPM and you'd be surprised at how much the right track at the right time can give you the little motivation boost you need to work through that last over/under set.

As for data analysis, I used to use TR for workouts and then import all the data into GoldenCheetah, but have given up on the latter since TR implemented their analytics tools and calendar. It may or may not be robust enough for you, depending on how much of a data geek you are. The TR calendar will import data from Strava so you can incorporate the TSS from your outdoor rides into your planning.

PS: If you want to give TR a go, PM me with your email address. I have a one month free trial code I'd be happy to share.

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Originally Posted by hmai18

PS: If you want to give TR a go, PM me with your email address. I have a one month free trial code I'd be happy to share.

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Good point. I forgot about those. I two, one month free, trail codes that I can share if anyone else is interested.

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Originally Posted by Drew

Now ten workouts in and quite happy with TrainerRoad. Thanks all for the nudges.

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Drew, when you finish Base 1 + do a test for Base 2 post your gains.

I finished SS base 1, and during the recovery week, had a few life issues (job crap). I rode pretty much once a week for three months. Sometimes twice. All outdoors. Trainer collected dust.

Finally got back on it last week. Couple of easy 30-45 min rides over a couple days to find the rhythm again, then drill it.

First test was 244, back in Jan. Just tested 260 on Monday. So the gains are there, even after the hiatus. Can’t wait to see where it goes later this year. My “A-event” is right around Halloween (actually a MTB race, but a very long one).

Goal is to get over 300 by January, and drop a few kilos while I am at it. I am confident I can get there, have been there in the past, just gotta stay diligent and lay off the snacks in the evening. Starting again with SS base 1, then SS base 2, then need to decide from there.

Still think TR is mega. No Zwift social BS, just the work, and some real analysis tools, please and thank. Between TR and the Wahoo trainer, it seems to just work. Really like that it’s quiet, I can suffer while the kids have gone to bed, without waking them.

Big fan of pulling up live concerts on YouTube while I am on trainer. I use AirPods to listen to it. Music is good, and I can watch the concert during recovery, or just listen and suffer during the fun parts.

I have been exploring Golden Cheetah, but that may be more than I have time to mess with.

Hammer hammer hammer

Just finished short power build (about 70% of the workouts -- job interruptions kept me from normal 90+ % compliance) and it was good. Now jumping "back" to 8-10 weeks of base to lift the foundation up.

TR is definitely my weapon of choice for indoor rides. Can do same thing with index cards and a few different workouts but I like the torture of chasing the yellow line across the workout.

I'm back to base after I get back from this biz trip.
Had to defer Kanza b/c of a new job but I figure that gives me a year to really get my shit dialed.

Going to try early morning starts now. Up at 4, on the bike by 4:30, done by 5:45, out the door to work 6:15, gotta be there by 7.

Here we go...

So, my cycling goal for next year is to do the Mt.Washington Hill Climb as fast as possible, so it is all about power to weight for ~1:30. I have a Kessler Spin Bike I use for indoor workouts which has a eddy current resistance and reads out watts Does something like Trainer road buy me anything I wouldn't get from a book like "Training and Racing with a Power Meter?"

I would absolutely recommend Trainer Road... if you're into just doing the work. No frills, no bells or whistles, just the numbers and the stats. If you're into the social aspect, maybe stick to Zwift, there is definitely more of an entertainment factor there.

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Originally Posted by Drew

Going to try early morning starts now. Up at 4, on the bike by 4:30, done by 5:45, out the door to work 6:15, gotta be there by 7.

Here we go...

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What time are you going to bed?

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Originally Posted by defspace

What time are you going to bed?

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Between 8:30 and 9.

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Originally Posted by Bobqzz

Does something like Trainer road buy me anything I wouldn't get from a book like "Training and Racing with a Power Meter?"

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TR builds in your structure and RX. It takes the "What ifs" and "What abouts" out of the equation. Less experimentation and a whole bunch of success.

When I tried to build a plan off of a book I just ended up pushing myself toward burnout. I have yet to reach that with TR (mostly b/c I get a metric fuck tonne done in 3-5 tailored rides indoors) as opposed to LOTS of trials, errors and junk miles.

-T-

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Originally Posted by false_aesthetic

TR builds in your structure and RX. It takes the "What ifs" and "What abouts" out of the equation. Less experimentation and a whole bunch of success.

When I tried to build a plan off of a book I just ended up pushing myself toward burnout. I have yet to reach that with TR (mostly b/c I get a metric fuck tonne done in 3-5 tailored rides indoors) as opposed to LOTS of trials, errors and junk miles.

-T-

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I've done this before (burnout). I always add wayyyy to much intensity when planning for myself (although ive learned, could probably do better now). For cyclocross I was probably close to 4 days a week intestiy average. I'm down to about 3 now. I pushed myself really hard for the end of MTB season, I actually won the race 2 weeks before my "A" race, but got instantly sick, 4 weeks, sinus related garbage. I blame 100% off not resting enough and pushing through illness. I ended up losing about 10% on my FTP. I just got back over that hump now, after almost 2 months of training, I'm back to where I left off. The rest was actually probably good and I'm better for it. I've pretty much been following trainer road. It removes the excuses and the time I spent designing workouts instead of training.

I now get sleep (used to finish most my workouts after midnight) and feel wayyyy better. I sometimes flip things around a bit (knowledge learned from the traditional books is helpfull for this, when to put the intensity, etc). Hoping to hit the ellsuive 4.5 w/kg before my big A CX races, but also not willing to get myself sick to do it.

I have 3 more 1 month trials for Trainer Road to anyone that wants them.

Just send me a PM.

I've got three of these trials available as well, in case you don't like Tom, or he runs out :)

Started the year with a PR: beat my previous 2 hour power by 1 watt.
Kind've rad considering that my previous PR was right before my "peak" last year and right now I'm just starting SSB II.

Unfortunately, I'm also about 10lb heavier than I was at this time last year.

Le Sigh.

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Originally Posted by false_aesthetic

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Unfortunately, I'm also about 10lb heavier than I was at this time last year.

Le Sigh.

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This a is a good thing!
Provided you are not at a crazy low body fat percentage, you can lose the 10lbs over the next couple of months and keep your power output the same you will be in a good spot. Unless you are a flat course crit guy, but in that case the 10lbs don’t matter. As a matter of fact put on 10 more.

Yep you're totally right.
The goal is to be 20lb (10kg) lighter by BWR.
If I hit that w/out a change in my FTP I'm just under 4w/kg.

Hopefully, though, my FTP keeps going up.