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Bringheli Anvil Dummy Axle Adapter
Been wanting to get to this for a while now. I have the Anvil Dummy axles on my fork jig and I like them way better than the Bringheli's.
What I wanted:
-No modification to the Jig (which would allow fellow Bringhelist's to use my adapter)
-Quick Change over
-Obviously use Anvil Dummy Axles
-Keep the Dummy Axle centerlines the same so users can continue to use the Scale for BB Drop.
-Keep the Dummy Axles Offset an easy to remember number.
What I came up with:
It uses a shaft that is turned to the exact diameter of the original Bringheli so it sits in the V the exact same way
This shaft is then flatted to a precise dimension, allowing the mounting of the Adapter Top and Bottom Plates
They function similar to how the Anvil DA is mounted in the Anvil Jig.
The end result is a Anvil Dummy Axle mounted in your Bringheli Jig exactly 50mm on center to the left of the original Dummy Axle.
http://i.imgur.com/X7RrrNB.jpg?1
I'm trying to see if there would be enough interest to send the parts to one of my vendors to have then run. If not I'm only planning on building 3 or 4 sets myself. 2 of which are already spoken for (me and another forum member). Also I'm taking this opportunity to see if anyone has suggestions or input before I start cutting metal.
Thanks - Todd.
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Re: Bringheli Anvil Dummy Axle Adapter
Looks really nice. If I still had my Bringheli I would want one.
If the hold-down plate was on top would it be easier to remove the frame from the jig with the axle still in the frame? You'd just have to add a correction constant to the BB drop graduation.
-Joel
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Re: Bringheli Anvil Dummy Axle Adapter
Joel,
I'm going to do a few experiments at home to see how a finished frame comes out of the jig. I can't really remember how I pull it out, since it's not something I really think about when I do it. The hold down plate does slide back on that slot far enough to fully clear the axle however. Thanks for giving me something to think about, adding a correction constant wouldn't be that hard, it would be nice if I had one less thing to think about though!
Thanks again -Todd.
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Re: Bringheli Anvil Dummy Axle Adapter
it would be more expensive (if you wanted to keep the height the same as the original) but you could make a z-shaped holder that would end up giving you the same setup as the anvil 2011 fork jig, seen here http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6026/6...9719d1da_z.jpg
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Re: Bringheli Anvil Dummy Axle Adapter
After doing some testing last night, I found the frame comes out of my Jig a lot easier by rocking it back a bit. This is probably because it's been so heavily modified, so for now I'm sticking with the current design.
I had a chance to get started on the prototype that I am making myself.
http://i.imgur.com/VKVZ7WJ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/3KavtR9.jpg
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Re: Bringheli Anvil Dummy Axle Adapter
Looks cool, Todd!
My main complaint with the rear end bracket is the V that's cut in the vertical slider piece. Mine wasn't originally milled the best and so the dummy Axle sat on it lower on one side than the other. I have corrected that, for the most part, over the years, but it seems like every time I take the dummy axle out it goes back in slightly different spot. Therefore, for me, it would be cool to see that whole V arrangement eliminated.
I don't mock up chain stay/drop outs on the jig (I do that on an Anvil chain stay mitering fixture), and so having an Anvil dummy axle there hasn't as much benefit for me. However, your idea looks cool and it looks like it will work well. Plz let us know how it goes.
Thanks,
Dave
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Re: Bringheli Anvil Dummy Axle Adapter
Todd, I would definitely take one. I'm finding out that the Bringheli dummy axel set up needs some refining. Your solution looks great. Any idea how much you would sell them for?
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Re: Bringheli Anvil Dummy Axle Adapter
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dave Anderson
Looks cool, Todd!
My main complaint with the rear end bracket is the V that's cut in the vertical slider piece. Mine wasn't originally milled the best and so the dummy Axle sat on it lower on one side than the other. I have corrected that, for the most part, over the years, but it seems like every time I take the dummy axle out it goes back in slightly different spot. Therefore, for me, it would be cool to see that whole V arrangement eliminated.
I don't mock up chain stay/drop outs on the jig (I do that on an Anvil chain stay mitering fixture), and so having an Anvil dummy axle there hasn't as much benefit for me. However, your idea looks cool and it looks like it will work well. Plz let us know how it goes.
Thanks,
Dave
Dave,
I've never thought about that, I'm curious to see if mine is milled correctly. I'm gonna have to check this out when I get home. Maybe I should just stick to my original plan of replacing the whole back end haha!!
We will see how this works. Thanks for your input as always! You've been a great help since you have so much experience with this jig.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mike Wanner
Todd, I would definitely take one. I'm finding out that the Bringheli dummy axel set up needs some refining. Your solution looks great. Any idea how much you would sell them for?
Mike if the quantities are low, I'll just mill them myself. I just charge material and labor ($30/hour), so this piece took me about 45 mins with blanking the size out and doing all the operations. So this piece I just did would be around $28.00 just to give you an idea. It will be under $100.00 that's for sure.
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Re: Bringheli Anvil Dummy Axle Adapter
Turning the Intensity up a few notches based on the great Dave Anderson's comments and after talking to a couple other Bringheli users.
http://i.imgur.com/bPiYjqZ.jpg?1
Probably going to still offer the first option for the budget conscious user.
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Re: Bringheli Anvil Dummy Axle Adapter
Whoa....now that is cool!
Where do I sign up?!
Dave
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Re: Bringheli Anvil Dummy Axle Adapter
Dave, now that is looking better by the moment. Yes I think that would be very reasonable and a great up grade to my Bringheli. Let me know when you get it ready.
Mike
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Re: Bringheli Anvil Dummy Axle Adapter
And so it begins. Starting off with a set of 4 of these.
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8386/8...7cbcafd8_b.jpg
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8112/8...22f1a859_b.jpg
Dave, I'm wondering if I can send you one of the initial prototypes. I've been a huge fan of your work for a long time, and I know you know the Bringheli almost better than anyone. I would be honored if you could use it for a bit and give me some feedback? I'm planning on having this done hopefully in the next 2-3 weeks.
Anybody looking to hop on board for a future run better message me or email me at farr.frameworks@gmail.com. The initial 4 are already spoken for.
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Re: Bringheli Anvil Dummy Axle Adapter
What's the clamping width on those anvil dummies? Been considering something similar for these ubi dummies I have (can't recall their clamp width off the top of my head- maybe 70?). I've got the bugs out of the jig- I think- but like the idea of cotinuity. As it stands, I braze and miter chainstays using the ubi, as the dropouts are held in phase. Switch over to the jig dummy only when it's time to tack the rear triangle.
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Re: Bringheli Anvil Dummy Axle Adapter
I don't have one in my hands yet but they are 2.5" wide with a 0.500 nominal OD in the center section according to Don
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Re: Bringheli Anvil Dummy Axle Adapter
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ToddFarr
Turning the Intensity up a few notches based on the great Dave Anderson's comments and after talking to a couple other Bringheli users.
http://i.imgur.com/bPiYjqZ.jpg?1
Probably going to still offer the first option for the budget conscious user.
Now you're talking!! I would buy that. I currently use a 3-way clamp to hold the Anvil axle. IIRC, the offset is around 6 mm from the original. I tack one stay/bb in the fixture and then go to the surface plate. Huge pain.
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Re: Bringheli Anvil Dummy Axle Adapter
Hi Todd,
Just saw your post. PM sent.
Thank you,
Dave
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Re: Bringheli Anvil Dummy Axle Adapter
Just a little heads up on where I am at with this....
Anyways, it seems the main complaint on the Bringheli back in is inaccuracy, which I have narrowed down to 2 main problems.
The main support bar has quite a bit of flex to it, and is machined pretty poorly, at least on mine.
The second problem is like most people have stated the axle is held by a small V with limited surface contact. Any deviation in this V skews the axle requiring compensation by the builder.
I've solved these two problem by creating stiffer system that allows for easier adjustments by the user. By limiting the length of the bar that supports the dummy axle and stacking thicker components at the contact points on the jig.
It solved one problem but created another. When you stack parts you can no longer use stock material, because stock material may measure correct on the edges often times it bows down in the middle. Also you are stacking tolerances, so by the time you get out to the jig centerline it may be up to 0.060" off.
The second problem is making sure all components are bolted together correctly. Bolts and clearances have a lot of slop, so I've added precision dowel pins in the appropriate, and important locations to ensure that every bolting location is a perfect fit.
http://i.imgur.com/K6iXxa6.jpg
You can see the two dowel pins through the transparent part. These holes are designed to be a press fit in one part and a super tight slip fit on the other. So the parts can be removed if needed, but will be able to be reassembled perfectly afterwards.
To make the back end this accurate some increased costs are involved. That being said, the cost for this backend mod is going to be $450.00 if only 5 people are involved, if I can get 10 I can cut the cost down to $340.00.
Anyways you guys still interested?
Thanks - Todd.
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Re: Bringheli Anvil Dummy Axle Adapter
The centerline of the jig is supposed to be 8.500" right? What does your guys measure? I was pretty sure they are all the same then I saw this post. Bike From Scratch › Aligning the rear end on a Bringheli jig
He's calling out 213mm which is 8.3858"...which seems weird.
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Re: Bringheli Anvil Dummy Axle Adapter
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mine is at 8.5 (215)... after i found the problem and shimmed it with a 2 mil piece of aluminum.
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^ Was that your post on that website??
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Re: Bringheli Anvil Dummy Axle Adapter
no, it wasn't. i just finally took the better part of a friday a few weeks back trying to figure out why i was having such a hard time with rear end alignment. and why chainstays mitered on a mill, in a fixture, never hit the bb correctly. measured everything about 9 different ways and the only issue i found was the centerline of the dropout arm. instantaneous solution, the last three frames have been straight as an arrow.
and yeah, kinda weird that he calls out 213, which is where this one was when it was causing all the problems.
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Re: Bringheli Anvil Dummy Axle Adapter
Todd,
I'm interested in this. I'd like to measure the centerline back there to add to what's been posted here but I won't be home until Thursday. Do you need a PM with more information about me?
Earl Glazer
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Re: Bringheli Anvil Dummy Axle Adapter
Hey everyone I just wanted to let you know where I am at with this. I've been pretty busy with work and other projects that have needed my attention. Anyways, I've done some cost analysis and I've been talking to a production shop I use for work about giving me a good deal on these parts since I do so much business with them. They can hold the tolerances I am spec'ing no problem, there are a few I am going to have trouble holding do to the lack of tooling and an older machine.
That being said if I can get 10 confirmed buyers I could move forward with this production shop and the price would drop down to $295.00 each + shipping.
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Re: Bringheli Anvil Dummy Axle Adapter
Been a while. First off sorry for the delay everyone, it's been a crazy year for me with tons of projects.
Here is my new plan... I'm building a 1 off prototype which I am going to use for my next frame build to see how I like it. Once I am done I am going to be sending it over to the Great Dave Anderson for him to use and abuse and give me some feedback. Once I implement his changes and my changes I am going to outsource these to my favorite local machine shop. I am thinking of getting 10 sets made, and hopefully with the support and backing of Dave I will be able to get a pre-order list going, once I have at least 5 confirmed buyer I will go ahead and pull the trigger and bring these in. Sound like a plan???
Anyways the work continues.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7425/8...8992fcd6_c.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7282/8...7c883d11_c.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7373/8...52aa0411_c.jpg
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Re: Bringheli Anvil Dummy Axle Adapter
Picking up Steam. The production version with have precision dowel holes, but I don't want to spend the money for tooling right now. I will just assemble this one and check on my granite.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7285/8...346d91a3_c.jpg
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Re: Bringheli Anvil Dummy Axle Adapter
Got a few parts back from Anodizing. I think it looks like a dragon.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7282/8...7cbb77ea_c.jpg
And then I finished the last piece tonight! This one took forever, mostly because I six side milled it. It's a very important part so I took my time to make it exact.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7281/8...daa9bb8b_c.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7284/8...e259e003_z.jpg
The production version of this part will have radiused corners, but again, I didn't wanna spend money on tooling right now. Just trying to prove the concept.
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Re: Bringheli Anvil Dummy Axle Adapter
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Re: Bringheli Anvil Dummy Axle Adapter
Thanks Sean, sorry it's been taking so long. I have a million projects going on right now between work and home! Life just tends to get in the way, however this last little bit is going to pick up steam! I have about 8 or 9 people who have expressed interest, so as soon as I finish proving the concept I am going to go ahead a do a run of 10 of these!
-Todd
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Re: Bringheli Anvil Dummy Axle Adapter
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Re: Bringheli Anvil Dummy Axle Adapter
Looks awesome Todd, can't wait to hear reports from you and Dave after using it.
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Re: Bringheli Anvil Dummy Axle Adapter
Excellent work. I've only done two frames on my Bringheli so far, but I can see how this is a worth while mod.
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Seems I have some good new for you all! Initial testing of the prototype has been amazing. I took the risk of tacking and brazing both CS at the same time just to see how true it would turn out.
Well, it's dead on. It's the straightest bike to come out of my jig so far!!
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5518/9...5a34cb9e_c.jpg
I'm going to hopefully finish up this bike this week, then send the prototype down to Dave Anderson to see what he has to say about it!
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Re: Bringheli Anvil Dummy Axle Adapter
Hey, I spy spinstix.
My one and only concession to weightweenieism is a pair of red spinstix on prototype #0 (the Ti one).
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Re: Bringheli Anvil Dummy Axle Adapter
^ You got it man! I bought them solely on price, one of those good deal kind of things. They are not the Ti since King Hubs and Ti skewers are a no-no.
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Sorry for the delay everyone, I wanted to test this thing fully before running a production set of these things. I'm going to run a set of 5, pricing will be $350.00 with a Anvil Dummy Axle of your choice and $300.00 without + shipping. After much use and abuse, I found the flaws very quickly, the first one being that the CS length was limited quite a bit, second the drive side dropout was kind of a pain to get to so I cut out the support a little, and third, my logo wasn't on there :)
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Let's get the list started. I'm rolling out 5 whether this list fills up or not, this just guarantees you will get one. Turn around will be about 3-4weeks.
Also, flickr is going down at 9pm, so just wait for the image to show up if you aren't seeing it.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7419/9...fa35ca62_b.jpg
FARR Frameworks Bringheli Rear End Replacemnet by FARR Frameworks, on Flickr
The production version is dowel pinned at every connection, this will be the best part of your jig I promise.
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Re: Bringheli Anvil Dummy Axle Adapter
Put me on the list. How are you working payment?
Earl Glazer