thanks for the reply jan atmo.
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Grant Peterson has bias too. Some of what he says can be laughed off, but I've never seen him peddle intellectual dishonesty and he'd certainly not do that to a certain brand with print. I don't think Grant's name fits well here.
I'll go first.
That's some first rate hubris.
Why can't you just figure out that you mis-sized a bike?
No, but you did say, "Overall, the appeal of the Pegoretti probably lies more in the name and the story behind the brand, rather than the actual bike." Read that sentence again and tell me you're not calling into question the work of the guy who built Miguel Indurain's bikes.
Also, a few pages later in the issue you disregard the British cycling magazine's test of "old vs. new" because the old bike was too small. How does this not invalidate everything you say about the Pegoretti?
jan-
you are wrong. that bike's contact points may have been within an acceptable range for you but it certainly didn't fit you. that bike is a 60cm frame and had you been able to measure the effective top tube length you would have found it to be 58,5 with a 72' seat tube angle. dario does drop the toptube on his larger bikes and extends the seat and headtube to accomodate. that being said, his headtubes are quite long- a benefit to most athletes as it allows for the use of fewer spaces. managing one of the largest pegoretti dealers around, i can tell you that more than a few bikes leave with some of the head tube cut down.
you should know that dario knows how to design proper racing bikes, and were you to set your saddle set back up to the same place, you would have fit quite comfortably on a 54cm or 55cm stock frame. top tube length is not a measurement that can be taken out of context or alone as i hope you know.
the bike didn't wow you. that's fine, it doesn't wow everyone. that's why there are a lot of different styles of bikes out there. that being said, you were clearly riding a bike several sizes too big for you and commenting on i's ride quality in any way is fundamentally ignorant. you claim to be an historian of the sport, you should know then that were you take fabian cancellara and put him in a way-back machine to 1973, he'd fit on merckx's bike perfectly. sure, the 62cm molteni thing would have a lot less exposed seatpost than his 55cm specialized- but his hands, feet and ass would be in the same place as it is on his modern bike. ahead stems extend upwards sligtly compared to -17 degree quills, hoods are mounted much higher on the bars and the handlebar drop is much less severe. think about things like this before you try to translate arbitrary numbers like "trail" and top tube length across time epochs. you need to examine the whole. the bike is more than the sum of its measurements and you do a disservice to great bike builders and designers by not being capable or educated enough to truly understand the discourse you attempt to reflect upon.
craig/jerk
You make my point for me. Who designed and who built Indurain's Pinarellos has little bearing on our test... but it underscores the appeal of the brand.
Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
Vintage Bicycle Press -- Home Page
Hi Jan, thanks for posting.
Where did you get the idea to review the bike? Did you have any prior experience with, or preconceptions of, Pegoretti-built bikes?
All feelings about the BQ article aside, Jan should be welcomed as a member to this forum. Iconoclastic, perhaps. Committed to cycling, definitely. As anyone that lives in Seattle will tell you, this guy logs a ton of miles and is a serious supporter of a cycling niche. One may disagree with his opinions, but they come from an informed position.
Jan- thanks for taking on the crowd- The intent is clear in that quote posted my mschol that you wished to undermine the merit of the Pegoretti, and your hubris here is now taking on Clintonian dimensions by the post- It's rather amusing- Why not say that you simply didn't like the bike?
Here's a beginning: So I understand, your article stated is that it was possible, then, that you criticized the bicycle, but you have no specific recollection of that ever happening?
Do the bicycles you review ever allow you to backpedal at all, or are they all fixed from the start?
Craig,
I don't see how that could work. My racing bike had a 74 degree seat tube angle. So if I slide the seat forward a bit to get the same setback on the smaller 54 cm Pegoretti with 73.5 degree seat tube, I'd shorten the reach to the bars. A 54 cm already has a 55 cm top tube, or 2 cm shorter than I'd like.
We always examine the whole. You allude to our research into front-end geometry. When we started out with our technical analyses, the general belief was "more trail = bike more stable." Now we know that wider tires require different geometries, and so do handlebar bags. We know that front-end geometry depends on your weight distribution, and whether you sit upright or have your bars lower. As you point out, bikes are much more complex than many realize.
But we also know that human bodies are adaptable. When you look at handlebar height across the decades, you will see that it's varied, and there is no one way to fit a bike for speed. However, at least since the 1930s, racers generally have had the handlebars no higher than the saddle. Coincidentally, that is my cutoff - I can ride bikes (with the appropriate reach) just fine, as long as the bars aren't higher than the saddle. The "ideal" reach changes a bit with bar height, of course, because your arms rotate forward as they go up. For a bike test, we aren't trying to set absolute best times, but trying to get a feel for the bike. For that, minor compromises in fit are acceptable, and inevitable. Also note that I am used to testing bikes, so perhaps I am a bit more adaptable than most.
However, if Dario Pegoretti or Gita want to send us a bike that they think will perform better, we'd love to test it. It's not like the current article is the final word on the subject.
Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
Vintage Bicycle Press -- Home Page
You wrote "This means that bike handling may be less important for professional racers than it is for enthusiast riders who like to explore the limits of tire adhesion as they enjoy their bikes."
What are you trying to say by misquoting Mr. Stieda? He was asked to slow down in that race and this does not mean that he does not care about bicycle handing. In fact, he has training camps teaching people how to ride and handle bicycle like pros for their safety and enjoyment. Alex Stieda Cycling Experience - Exceptional Cycling Experiences
"Alex has brought together a host of men and women professional riders, Olympic and World Champions, plus mechanics, shop owners and friends to explain the universe of cycling. All skills are covered including cornering, braking , climbing descending, clothing, strategies for riding in traffic and even getting to know your local bike shop!
More details at http://www.thesmoothride.net/" Alex Stieda Cycling Experience - Exceptional Cycling Experiences
Any result from a bad experiment means nothing. If you don't know it's a bad experiment, well.
So, what's this thread about?
That was years ago. I don't remember the exact size, but the bike was a bit cramped. That is why I asked George Gibbs of Il Vecchio to find me a larger one. And I rode the Marcelo alone, without timing myself, so it's hard to separate feel from actual performance. That is why we did a full test this time, rather than a subjective impression... Realistically, I know when a bike doesn't fit, and I wouldn't test it if I can't put out power. As mentioned in the article, I did one of my better times up Zoo Hill on Cougar Mountain on the Pegoretti. My power output was fine.
Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
Vintage Bicycle Press -- Home Page