frame building and eggs atmo -

the organic nature of frame building - taking a pile of parts, some tools,
experience, and a vision - has always confounded me atmo. i'm way more
comfortable with it now than i was when i started. but it often made me
squirm as i was trying to figure out the dance. no two are alike. and some
parts of one can be so very right, while the rest of it is just good enough.
getting it nailed from end to end isn't possible, and i surrendered to that
notion years ago. in some ways it's like the accuracy of a quartz watch
compared to the idiosyncrasies of a mechanical one. i say in some ways,
because i really don't know watches well enough to know why a drug store
example may keep more accurate time than one labored over by a skilled
watchmaker. oh, and in many ways i don't care.

but i do know about frames, and no matter what you bring to the table, and
no matter how hard you try, or how on your game you are, no two are alike.
alas, duplication and repeatability are just dreams atmo.

is it okay to articulate these differences and even celebrate them? since i
can't seem to get to that elusive other side, i reckon it is.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3114/...0b2e0638a5.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by e-RICHIE

because i really don't know watches well enough to know why a drug store
example may keep more accurate time than one labored over by a skilled
watchmaker.

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oh, the spring unwinds differently due to variences in the elongation of the metal as per the fluctuations in temperature - that and friction, mostly. seriously, though - some bikes are a joy, they fall together. others linger in the jig, have parts that end up as recycling fodder or go into the fork sculpture, or get cut up and thrown away or given to friends logo-less. it is really wild, how different builds unfold. throw in custom bending and it compounds. it's like solving puzzles, only you are designing the puzzle WHILE you solve it. starting a new one from scratch today. rock on, steve.

how come we can't get those 4/5/6 park wrenches any more?

i first learned to braze from tim isaac at match. tim said: "brazing is like cooking eggs. when it's done more heat won't make it more done."

It seems to me that the phrase "no two are alike" can be applied to many things we buy and own.

I used to own an old and rare car called a Lotus Cortina and I did a full restoration on it and had it very far apart. When I got into the guts of the car I started seeing more an more hand work. There were grease pen notes and arrows showing where flaws were and subsequent hammer blow marks that fixed the issue. File marks, the slip of a hand drill and the skidding swirl marks it left. Even 40 years after it was wade there was evidence of the men that made it all over if you knew what to look for. When it was rebuilt great care was taken to be sure to not clean up or "fix" these things.

I'm sure when it was made those defects that I worked so hard to discover and protect where not something the workers were proud of. They weren't looking 40 years down the road and thinking how much I would covet the evidence in the metal of the skilled but imperfect men that made the car. They were defects pure and simple. But to me they were a way for me to connect to those men that all those years ago worked hard and long on the car.

I suspect and hope that something similar happens with my/our work years down the road. Just like the workers at Lotus that made Lotus Cortina #1839 in June of 1965 didn't want any defects in their car I don't want any defects in my bikes. I don't purposely leave my mark anywhere but there's no doubt that there is a mark and I hope that at some point someone will celebrate it. It's all part of the charm of something being handmade. That connection is important to me and I suspect to others. So while I don't think folks celebrate flaws in work they do celebrate the fact that these things are made by living breathing men that are not perfect............ and those flaws are just evidence of that. That to me is something I think everyone can relate to.

Dave

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hampco

how come we can't get those 4/5/6 park wrenches any more?

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i think you can, but they have a sucky plastic "handle". steve.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by steve garro

i think you can, but they have a sucky plastic "handle". steve.

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mine is sitting on my bench just like yours, with the blue only left on 6mm. probably for the same reasons.

some one tried to walk out of my shop with it in their pocket the other day. almost had to bonk them on the head with the dead blow.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dave Kirk

It seems to me that the phrase "no two are alike" can be applied to many things we buy and own.

I used to own an old and rare car called a Lotus Cortina and I did a full restoration on it and had it very far apart. When I got into the guts of the car I started seeing more an more hand work. There were grease pen notes and arrows showing where flaws were and subsequent hammer blow marks that fixed the issue. File marks, the slip of a hand drill and the skidding swirl marks it left. Even 40 years after it was wade there was evidence of the men that made it all over if you knew what to look for. When it was rebuilt great care was taken to be sure to not clean up or "fix" these things.

I'm sure when it was made those defects that I worked so hard to discover and protect where not something the workers were proud of. They weren't looking 40 years down the road and thinking how much I would covet the evidence in the metal of the skilled but imperfect men that made the car. They were defects pure and simple. But to me they were a way for me to connect to those men that all those years ago worked hard and long on the car.

I suspect and hope that something similar happens with my/our work years down the road. Just like the workers at Lotus that made Lotus Cortina #1839 in June of 1965 didn't want any defects in their car I don't want any defects in my bikes. I don't purposely leave my mark anywhere but there's no doubt that there is a mark and I hope that at some point someone will celebrate it. It's all part of the charm of something being handmade. That connection is important to me and I suspect to others. So while I don't think folks celebrate flaws in work they do celebrate the fact that these things are made by living breathing men that are not perfect............ and those flaws are just evidence of that. That to me is something I think everyone can relate to.

Dave

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thanks for this post, Dave. i've been thinking about this stuff allot, but i could never express it as well as you just did. sooooo.......here's what i've been thinking about, and here's a picture to TRY to show what i mean - do people appreciate when something is NAILED? do people appreciate when they can just see that a feature is pulled off and the builder checked it off the list and moved on rather then just handjobbed it to death? i think about this allot esp. as a fillet brazing builder, where unlike TIG or lugs where it's hard to hide anything, a "builder" can lay a really sucky bird-poop braze and roast the tube and polish into something visually passable with some bondo and a good painter........so, i submit for your critique this dropout shot right out of the dunktank. how much work would you builders do before checking this off the list & moving on? thanks to all, esp. E-ritchey for a great thread! steve.

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Originally Posted by steve garro

so, i submit for your critique this dropout shot right out of the dunktank. how much work would you builders do before checking this off the list & moving on?

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i'll answer that by pasting in this thought - one that hit me so deep that
i xeroxed it and added to the cover of our handmade wedding invitations
back - what, 13 or so years ago atmo!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3512/...94e5547f86.jpg

from E-ritchey's post "the trouble they took for something that cannot be seen"..............how about the art shown in somthing done so many times that the competence obtained through repitition shows.......the mastery of the hand & torch vs. the mastery of the file.........an unfiled Ross Schafer fillet brazed Salsa.........it's like drystacking rock walls.........i used to love that shit. i was the "rock guy". they would drop me off with a trailer full of rocks and leave me alone. there's rock work all over town that i look at all the time that i did. it's aging really well.......sure, you could stucco it over and paint it blue..........enough sentimental ranting, it's time to get on with the doing of the thing. steve

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dave Kirk

.... So while I don't think folks celebrate flaws in work they do celebrate the fact that these things are made by living breathing men that are not perfect............ and those flaws are just evidence of that. That to me is something I think everyone can relate to.

Dave

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Even things made by machine are not perfect. It's all a matter of resolution. As is everything in life.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by steve garro

thanks for this post, Dave. i've been thinking about this stuff allot, but i could never express it as well as you just did. sooooo.......here's what i've been thinking about, and here's a picture to TRY to show what i mean - do people appreciate when something is NAILED? do people appreciate when they can just see that a feature is pulled off and the builder checked it off the list and moved on rather then just handjobbed it to death? i think about this allot esp. as a fillet brazing builder, where unlike TIG or lugs where it's hard to hide anything, a "builder" can lay a really sucky bird-poop braze and roast the tube and polish into something visually passable with some bondo and a good painter........so, i submit for your critique this dropout shot right out of the dunktank. how much work would you builders do before checking this off the list & moving on? thanks to all, esp. E-ritchey for a great thread! steve.

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Of course, we need to see the other one to make sure the slots in phase before critiquing. <grin> Put dynafile on those ends and really give a nice scallop.

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Originally Posted by Archibald

Even things made by machine are not perfect. It's all a matter of resolution. As is everything in life.

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nails it atmo.

and there's something to the routine of picking up yet another pile of
parts and making them fit yet another work order that, on one hand is
a chance to redeem oneself for all past flaws, and on the other hand
realize that it's not worth the effort since the material always tells you
what it will be.

'would make a good koan brothers film huh.

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Originally Posted by e-RICHIE

nails it atmo.'would make a good koan brothers film huh.

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Is that a double meaning/fruedian slip - the spelling or misspelling of the name "Koen".

Koan -

koan |ˈkōˌän|
noun
a paradoxical anecdote or riddle, used in Zen Buddhism to demonstrate the inadequacy of logical reasoning and to provoke enlightenment.

dave

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dave Kirk

Is that a double meaning/fruedian slip - the spelling or misspelling of the name "Koen".

Koan -

koan |ˈkōˌän|
noun
a paradoxical anecdote or riddle, used in Zen Buddhism to demonstrate the inadequacy of logical reasoning and to provoke enlightenment.

dave

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yes - you get me like a book atmo.
'was intentional.

ps and it's coen brothers iirc imho.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by e-RICHIE

nails it atmo.

and there's something to the routine of picking up yet another pile of
parts and making them fit yet another work order that, on one hand is
a chance to redeem oneself for all past flaws, and on the other hand
realize that it's not worth the effort since the material always tells you
what it will be.

'would make a good koan brothers film huh.

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or straight out of Cormac Mc Carthy...........steve.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Curt Goodrich

Of course, we need to see the other one to make sure the slots in phase before critiquing. <grin> Put dynafile on those ends and really give a nice scallop.

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and loose the scallop made by the torch? it took me 150+ frames to get that right.........:cheers: steve.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by e-RICHIE

yes - you get me like a book atmo.
'was intentional.

ps and it's coen brothers iirc imho.

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than what was my slip?

Dave

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Originally Posted by Dave Kirk

than what was my slip?

Dave

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hi - no slip.
i was saying that you had me right with the double entendre.
that means two entendres in french.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by e-RICHIE

hi - no slip.
i was saying that you had me right with the double entendre.
that means two entendres in french.

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Cool.........thanks for explaining that in a way that's not patronizing.

That means not being talked down to.

dave

Yes that is sarcasm........... either that or I'm a @#$%@#$%@#$%@#$%.

Dave

Quote:

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Originally Posted by e-RICHIE

but i do know about frames, and no matter what you bring to the table, and no matter how hard you try, or how on your game you are, no two are alike. alas, duplication and repeatability are just dreams atmo.

is it okay to articulate these differences and even celebrate them? since i can't seem to get to that elusive other side, i reckon it is.

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One of your quotes in your movie really drove home the point you are making for me. You were talking about making the points where the chainstays mate with the dropouts. You said something along the lines of (and I apologize because I know I am not getting it right) how the shape of point is different from bike to bike and it depended on the condition of your files, your parts and you on that day. This really spoke to me.

I struggle letting go. My dad is a tool maker and he knows I struggle with this. He told me about 10 years ago that at a certain point you have to stop making love to it and get it on its way. And this is coming from a guy who deals in dimensions that are a couple orders of magnitude smaller than I am dealing in. He said he could toil for ages trying to get a cavity in a mold to be "perfect", but in actuality there really is no "perfect".

I sleep well at night knowing that I did the best job I could do. The bikes are safe, will go down the road or trail straight, and look as good as I can make them look. But I know that my fingerprints are on each one. Just ask Twowheels. He found a little "personality" on his bike. And he busted my chops about it just like he should have. It's like finding an easter egg.

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Originally Posted by zank

I sleep well at night knowing that I did the best job I could do. The bikes are safe, will go down the road or trail straight, and look as good as I can make them look.

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Mike- this is how i feel. I get the fact that i am newer at this and have more to learn. I look forward to the idea of learning more and more. It is what gets me up in the morning. I do however know my bikes are safe and the best i can build. Will the bikes change? I would think so. Do they have imperfections (sorry Richard the word just fit)? of course but non of them are more than additions to the serial # on the BB.

I was just at the Cabin Fever Auction hanging out with Jamie Swan who is the definition of a perfectionist that has a hard time letting go. He admits it and in turn builds 3 (record high) bikes a year. He is a machinist first so accuracy is always first with him. I have learned lots from talking with Jamie and always look forward to seeing him. He is a good EGG!

Just got a call from Rody at Groovy Cycle Works. Someone that bought a 953 stem from me sent it to him for a change to an integrated one piece handlebar/stem using his Luv Handles. He was asking me how i made the lug and if it was pinned or not. It was a good example of feeling proud knowing Rody is going to dissect my work and hopefully look at it and say "that is kind of cool".

Cheers,
Drew

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Originally Posted by e-RICHIE

is it okay to articulate these differences and even celebrate them? since i
can't seem to get to that elusive other side, i reckon it is.

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well - i am not sure if there was thread drift, or if the question was addressed
and i'm too obtuse to see the answer. but my reply to my own post is that it's
okay to celebrate them. there. i said it.

I say celebrate cuz you can either piss and moan about it or enjoy it for what it is. Life's too short to piss and moan in my book.

It's the result of that striving towards the ideal that is worth celebrating - Sisyphus is a hero, remember?

I leave Sisyphus at the foot of the mountain! One always finds one's burden again. But Sisyphus teaches the higher fidelity that negates the gods and raises rocks. He too concludes that all is well. This universe henceforth without a master seems to him neither sterile nor futile. Each atom of that stone, each mineral flake of that night filled mountain, in itself forms a world. The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.

---Albert Camus

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Originally Posted by davids

It's the result of that striving towards the ideal that is worth celebrating -

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i'm a striving fool bro' atmo.
and i'm havin' a celebratin' situation -

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3405/...83e82244_b.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zank

I say celebrate cuz you can either piss and moan about it or enjoy it for what it is. Life's too short to piss and moan in my book.

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You have to celebrate it. If you're not celebrating it you shouldn't be doing it and they are 'handmade' afterall.

I, for one, am proud of the work and I'm proud of 'your/our collective' work.

People who see it, see it and people who know it know it - now people who know it when they see it. Those are my favorite ones. They help in the celebrating.

conorb

Strive for perfection while accepting that it will never be achieved.

Striving,

Dave

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Originally Posted by Dave Kirk

Strive for perfection while accepting that it will never be achieved.

Striving,

Dave

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Just laid this fillet this morning. It is a great fillet. I can still stare at it and pick the areas i wish went better. I still am very proud of this fillet.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3465/...b7e61263_b.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EnginCycles

Just laid this fillet this morning. It is a great fillet. I can still stare at it and pick the areas i wish went better. I still am very proud of this fillet.

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nice fillet, drew! slap some gravy on it and call it good! hey, what happened to that imploded starrett holesaw on your flickr site? impressive.........steve.

There's an old saying in Haiti that goes "Macaque carese pitit li jus temp li touye'l" which means:

The monkey caresses it's child until it has killed it.

...as we say in surgery after we've fixed something but still have that desire to make it 'look perfect'. Not to say one shouldn't always strive to improve one's work, but you can really mess something up trying to make it look perfect.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cw05

...as we say in surgery after we've fixed something but still have that desire to make it 'look perfect'. Not to say one shouldn't always strive to improve one's work, but you can really mess something up trying to make it look perfect.

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agreed atmo - and in most cases it's the head that gets messed.

"the trouble they took for something that cannot be seen"

I read a book about the Parthenon frieze, aka the Elgin Marbles, and learned that this magnificent sculptural element was the inner
frieze on the temple, obscured by the outer columns. Designed as a continuous image of a processional march, it couldn't be seen from outside except between columns or from inside the columns, directly beneath it. It wasn't meant to be seen independently, but as part of the architectural whole.

Once upon a time I was burning lots of energy trying to nail the answer to a complex problem ("boiling the ocean" as they say), and a wise person asked me if I wanted to spend the rest of my life being exactly wrong or approximately right.

It's a daily battle between impossible standards and mediocrity.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EnginCycles

Jamie Swan who is the definition of a perfectionist that has a hard time letting go. He admits it and in turn builds 3 (record high) bikes a year. He is a machinist first so accuracy is always first with him.

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no offence to jamie- i dont know him.
he's a hobbiest not a framebuilder.

this like the wheelbuilder who takes 1 1/2 hr to build a wheel- same...hobbiest
3 hrs to put a bike together- hobbiest
etc.

watch a good pro mechanic work on a real team bike.
bang, bang, bang done.
works well enough.

this shit is easy to work on really. and it works fine without getting into a lather about the whole thing.
boom... bb, crank install- 5 minutes. taking longer wont make it better.
same with the rest.
once saddle/ bars stem placed the rest falls into place big time fast.

never confuse slow with good.

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Originally Posted by SteveP

never confuse slow with good.

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unless you're engaged in casual sax atmo.
thanks for all the replies to my thread.
that's a wrapmo.