so - what would you like to see here atmo?

we set this place up so that builders could chat with builders and folks who
were interested in the thread(s) could also jump in and add some flavor (but
not steer the conversation off course). now that we've all prepped for, done,
and counted our money from nahbs, i thought i'd start a thread about this very
board. we have some several dozen professional builders who are signed in to
create threads, and legions of others who can read and post.

how can this board best serve your frame-ish needs atmo?

No limits. Let's capture all ideas and react. This forum has many many modifications and possibilities beyond just a comment board. Go for it.

i'm not sure..........honestly, not to sound elitist, but i'm not into telling people where to buy flux and silver vs. brass threads. what's left? bulk material purchases? insurance co-op? i hate to use the word but this would start sounding like things associated with a "guild"........Steve.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by steve garro

i'm not sure..........honestly, not to sound elitist, but i'm not into telling people where to buy flux and silver vs. brass threads. what's left? bulk material purchases? insurance co-op? i hate to use the word but this would start sounding like things associated with a "guild"........Steve.

---

eh i dunno - i'll tell folks anything and share almost any resource atmo.
i type quick, keep it brief, and get back to my pinball machine. all the
posts in the world can line up, but folks still gotta do their own work.
and - if it gets too repetitive or contentious, i'll make mention of the
search engine atmo. later - must start drinking now.

On that note, can the software be coded so that the forum will dispense beer and/or coffee?

Not being a frame builder I think a couple of things you all accomplish would be interesting.

Besides fittings, double checking the measurements and cutting, where do you prefer to begin the build?

What have you not done that you would like to...just once to see how it worked for you? Is there a project you have kept to yourself that you would care to share?

I see builders show off their fine products, but for those of us who are not budding builders, we don't truly understand how you see the build. Do you see numbers and get a picture in your mind, are there moments u enjoy during the process more then others?

Does the handmade show put pressure on you to create something new each year to out do someone else?

I would love to talk more about business strategy, marketing, selling, and that kind of stuff. I think a hearty discussion on drumming up business outside of the forum world would be cool. I mean, we love all you cats who keep us afloat, but this pond is only so big and there are lots of folks out there who don't frequent these great places.

To follow on what zank has mentioned, an important thing for the more established and knowledgeable industry folks to pass along is wisdom. WHat I'm thinking is good advice on what NOT to do, deals NOT to make, etc. Just some guidelines on traps that are good to avoid in dealing with suppliers, customers, problem builds, etc. Places where is it good to spend a little more time and effort now to avoid bigger problems down the road. Being in business, especially for a hand made specialty/luxury product can be a minefield of uncertainty. How do you avoid the mis-steps?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by maunahaole

To follow on what zank has mentioned, an important thing for the more established and knowledgeable industry folks to pass along is wisdom. WHat I'm thinking is good advice on what NOT to do, deals NOT to make, etc. Just some guidelines on traps that are good to avoid in dealing with suppliers, customers, problem builds, etc. Places where is it good to spend a little more time and effort now to avoid bigger problems down the road. Being in business, especially for a hand made specialty/luxury product can be a minefield of uncertainty. How do you avoid the mis-steps?

---

atmo i have opinions and share them kinda sorta regularly.
if i see questions about this stuff (you note) i'll chime inmo.
just sayin'.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zank

I would love to talk more about business strategy, marketing, selling, and that kind of stuff. I think a hearty discussion on drumming up business outside of the forum world would be cool. I mean, we love all you cats who keep us afloat, but this pond is only so big and there are lots of folks out there who don't frequent these great places.

---

Speaking of business, do the independent framebuilders prefer to run the whole show from end-to-end or would some prefer to just build and leave the business/selling/marketing side to someone else?

Is the most enjoyable part the actual building, or perhaps the satisfaction a builder gets working with individual customers and incorporating different ideas (ie. planning/brainstorming), or perhaps just seeing their bikes being ridden/raced?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shorelocal

Speaking of business, do the independent framebuilders prefer to run the whole show from end-to-end or would some prefer to just build and leave the business/selling/marketing side to someone else?

Is the most enjoyable part the actual building, or perhaps the satisfaction a builder gets working with individual customers and incorporating different ideas (ie. planning/brainstorming), or perhaps just seeing their bikes being ridden/raced?

---

i'm a loner and over the years have controlled everything. it's only in recent
times that i have conceded a project or two (as in, a print ad or similar) to
someone else. once a control freak, etcetera. and in most cases, ideas and
concepts percolate for months, even years, before they become reality. some
examples would include logo revisions, ways to run the teams, and terms of
business. at the end of the day, the framebuilding process is the easy part,
but finding ways to promote and sustain the business eventually became part
of the routine. at this point in my life, it's the sum total that gives me the
pleasure. i do consider all of it to be part of the creative process, not just
the time spent at the bench atmo.

You could even pose questions to your customers about what they enjoyed about their experiences with the builders.

That'd seem like good business for the framebulders.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RudAwkning

You could even pose questions to your customers about what they enjoyed about their experiences with the builders.

That'd seem like good business for the builders.

---

that's true, but the general discussion boards usually have those
topics. that subject has some dot.com overlap issues and i'd rather
see more impersonal stuff talked about. the relationship between a
maker and a client is one that should be respected, and calling
them out, here, may cross lines atmo. no matter. we want more
builders talking with builders, and if it happens that clients chime
in about stuff, we'll see where it leads. thanks atmo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by steve garro

...insurance co-op?...

---

I'd love to see that discussed here and be a part of it if it came to fruition. I'm building frame number three and have an eye toward, perhaps, hanging out a shingle at some point. (Yes, I know three frames does not a competent frame builder make. I'm talking distant future here folks:angel:)

Presently, I make my living as an electrical contractor, actor and musician. My contractor's business liability here in North Carolina is less than $800 a year.

Seems inequitable that I'd need to pay upwards of $1,500 or more to build a handful of frames per year for commerce.

I feel that a co-op would be a godsend for those of us who might like to build at more than the hobby level, but not as a full-time occupation like our artisan friends here.

What say ye?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bill Ladd

I'd love to see that discussed here and be a part of it if it came to fruition. I'm building frame number three and have an eye toward, perhaps, hanging out a shingle at some point. (Yes, I know three frames does not a competent frame builder make. I'm talking distant future here folks:angel:)

Presently, I make my living as an electrical contractor, actor and musician. My contractor's business liability here in North Carolina is less than $800 a year.

Seems inequitable that I'd need to pay upwards of $1,500 or more to build a handful of frames per year for commerce.

I feel that a co-op would be a godsend for those of us who might like to build at more than the hobby level, but not as a full-time occupation like our artisan friends here.

What say ye?

---

i might be in the minority here (and there) but i'd rather see you make the
commitment and join "us" rather than find ways to appropriate some of the
professional needs of our trade and filter them out to those who are treating
it like a craft (note: that's me generalizing atmo). unlike some other handmade
goods that serve, shall we say, more decorative elements, a bicycle is a vehicle.
while no one has established minimum standards for framebuilders, having a
policy is one way to show a modicum of responsibility. i am fully aware that
some don't have the cabbage, and others think they make too few to matter,
and others say theirs never fail, and we also have the cat who simply doesn't
want to play ball with the man. no matter how you couch it, making a bicycle
that someone else will ride comes with a price. i can't see how the insurance
industry can come down any lower than $1500 per annum, and i don't even
think they should. there are not <that> many full time pros and even fewer
hobbyists. no matter how many frames one makes, atmo the cost of entry at
$1500 a year for product liability seems reasonable. one can always elect to
fly naked and take the chances. i alienate many when i articulate all this, but
am committed to seeing the trade in a positive light. to me, insurance is part
of that equation atmo.

I'm fully on board with e-richie. The thing that haunts me is that most hobby builders build for friends and family. These are the very people you would most want covered in case, God forbid, something goes wrong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shorelocal

Speaking of business, do the independent framebuilders prefer to run the whole show from end-to-end or would some prefer to just build and leave the business/selling/marketing side to someone else?

Is the most enjoyable part the actual building, or perhaps the satisfaction a builder gets working with individual customers and incorporating different ideas (ie. planning/brainstorming), or perhaps just seeing their bikes being ridden/raced?

---

Since I was quoted in your post, I'll take a stab too. I don't really have a part I like "most". I feel fortunate as a small business owner to get my hands dirty in all parts of the business. I would go crazy if all I did was work at the bench all day, every day. I am a bit of a social butterfly and really enjoy the relationships that come to be from the one-on-one interactions with my customers. I have a natural curiosity towards business and sales. I get a charge out of closing a deal. I enjoy building relationships with vendors. But the real meat for me is the design process, the fabrication and the resulting bike that will hopefully get ridden, maybe get raced, get beat to crap, and be thoroughly enjoyed and worn out by my customer.

It's all good. It's all fun. Some parts I like more than other parts. But I am a control freak and I leave as little as possible to external parties. Someone asked me the other day about why I took the approach I did to building my brand. I was kind of puzzled. "you know, your whole racing/cyclocross schtick." I never really thought of it that way. That was me before I built my first frame. See my "means to an end" thread and you'll see what I mean.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zank

I'm fully on board with e-richie. The thing that haunts me is that most hobby builders build for friends and family. These are the very people you would most want covered in case, God forbid, something goes wrong.

---

Zank got me on board with this very early on in my building days...kinda took me under his wing and said this is one of those things that's the "right" thing to do. I treat it as a non-negociable part of being a part of this, wonderfully awesome and amazing, thing we do. Dudes like eRichie and DW and SBA and QBP and S&S and Ventana rear ends and just about any other entity/luxury afforded to us framebuilders by distributors/shows require it these days. If you need another avenue to justify the cost; the mopney saved/made by using the aforementioned resources surely outweighs $1500 on PLI. +what Zank said about friends and family...eek!

Tony

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zank

I'm fully on board with e-richie. The thing that haunts me is that most hobby builders build for friends and family. These are the very people you would most want covered in case, God forbid, something goes wrong.

---

It never occurred to me that you guys had liability insurance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shinomaster

It never occurred to me that you guys had liability insurance.

---

Lots of it. A professional builder has it - period - full stop.

Dave

As someone who builds frames to sell (insured for 2x10e6), but is not a framebuilder, I would love to keep this portion of the forum akin to the Jerk's, with posts occurring less frequently but containing a much higher content/spray ratio than the General Discussion forum.

The beauty of the Jerk's section is that you know each topic is going to be a good read that is well thought out and insightful. The same can be said of most of the posts that the Telai-ista section to date. No one wants to recreate the frameforum experiences or the bikelist discussions so I don't think the "How do I build a frame" question will come up.

I would love to see sincere postings by builders looking to grow, modify, or otherwise improve their business. That being said, I think that there is seed for discussion in some of the following.

1) Toolling from Anvil is the shit but, I would love to see more homegrown solutions to framebuilding problems. The facultative reasoning behind the tooling in D. Kirk's and e-Richie's build sequences are fascinating and show how one could maximize profitability while not sacrificing quality.

2) Zanc has posted the marketing/advertising question before on the bikelist forum and I found the responses lacking specificity. What sort of promotions/sponsorships are people trying out? I love Sach's support of road and cyclocross...what have other people done to access non-Interweb type customers.

3) Pricing...call out the ass hats who are responsible for discussions like this one, http://www.serotta.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56565
perhaps a discussion about how to target such thinking would be worthwhile

4) Pricing, high end production frames like Time and Colnago are fetching $4000 plus. How many hand crafted frames can claim the same?

5) Current work- In the past I've voiced the concern that builders posting work in the Geeral Discussion forum feels somewhat like advertising (it's been better lately). Why don't builders just post their latest work here? It'd be a neat clearing house for those hoping to better understand the craft and it would differentiate consumer's sneak peek shots from builder's "here's what I'm up to" pics.

6)Stories- I would love to hear about builders experiences from visits to Nagasawa, working at Serotta, having a customer exclaim "my custom bike couldn't do the above as well as the Centurion" when the custom frame was fan-freakin-tastic, having customers try to ditch a commitment to buy by arranging for some sort of bizare "buy out" for another forum individual without the builder's consent.

Aside from those listed, there are tons of things for builders to talk about. What I would personally prefer is that they post because they want to, not because they see that this section of the forum has been inactive for a period of time. If it's anything like the Jerk's section, then people are watching it daily, and when the time comes to talk...the forum will be fertile ground.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dave Kirk

Lots of it. A professional builder has it - period - full stop.

Dave

---

Hear Hear
What Dave said

And I pay extra $ for coverage for all my exported frames and frame parts to the USA and Europe.

Cherers Dazza:cool:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by e-RICHIE

i can't see how the insurance
industry can come down any lower than $1500 per annum, and i don't even
think they should. there are not <that> many full time pros and even fewer
hobbyists. no matter how many frames one makes, atmo the cost of entry at
$1500 a year for product liability seems reasonable.

---

I think Bill's point was that an electrical contractor pays ~$800 a year, and faulty electrical work can cause injury and death about as easily as can faulty frame building. It would seem that lower insurance rates would be beneficial to all builders, unless perhaps established builders view such costs as a barrier to entry for potential competitors.

Harry Phinney

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hkp

I think Bill's point was that an electrical contractor pays ~$800 a year, and faulty electrical work can cause injury and death about as easily as can faulty frame building.

---

if there was as many framebuilders in the states as there were
electricians in my county, i am sure the rates would be spread
out further and hence lowered atmo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hkp

It would seem that lower insurance rates would be beneficial to all builders, unless perhaps established builders view such costs as a barrier to entry for potential competitors.

Harry Phinney

---

nah. i can't fathom that any professional (or anyone at all, for that matter) would feel that way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mjbab@#$%@#$%@#$%@#$%

3) Pricing...call out the ass hats who are responsible for discussions like this one, http://www.serotta.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56565
perhaps a discussion about how to target such thinking would be worthwhile

---

OK. I followed the link and read through the thread. What exactly is an "ass hat", and why do you consider people associated with that thread to be such? It seemed to me to be a reasonable discussion regarding alternate approaches to getting a bike, and referenced several very experienced, well known, and generally well respected builders.

Harry Phinney

Quote:

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Originally Posted by e-RICHIE

if there was as many framebuilders in the states as there were
electricians in my county, i am sure the rates would be spread
out further and hence lowered atmo.

---

A larger number of builders should only cause the rate to go down if increasing the number of frame builders decreases the per-builder insurance pay-outs. I guess that would be true if either the additional frame builders did not proportionately increase the number of frames built, or they increased the average skill of the builders and so that the per-builder risk decreased. Perhaps there's effectively a surcharge because of additional risk due to the insurers' inexperience in the industry, but it seems to me that there's little difference from a liability standpoint between frame building and general metal fabrication. I haven't priced it, so perhaps metal fabricators also pay 75% higher insurance rates than do electrical contractors.

Harry Phinney

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hkp

A larger number of builders should only cause the rate to go down if increasing the number of frame builders decreases the per-builder insurance pay-outs. I guess that would be true if either the additional frame builders did not proportionately increase the number of frames built, or they increased the average skill of the builders and so that the per-builder risk decreased. Perhaps there's effectively a surcharge because of additional risk due to the insurers' inexperience in the industry, but it seems to me that there's little difference from a liability standpoint between frame building and general metal fabrication. I haven't priced it, so perhaps metal fabricators also pay 75% higher insurance rates than do electrical contractors.

Harry Phinney

---

atmo if/when we are classified as welders, the premium is reasonable (or i
should say, others might consider it reasonable) but the cavaet is that the
liability extends to the frame. if/when it is altered in any way (as in, assembled
into a bicycle) all bets are off. i spent about 10 years in this grid and i was
warned against selling bicycles (as opposed to frames). atmo it simply is not
worth the anxiety involved because whatever we are assessed, there will
be those who say it's too much and it supports that barrier of entry POV that
you mentioned. it's a business, there are many ways to amortize the premium
over a 12 month period, and cats do it all the time. sometimes i wonder what
folks (not you harry) would pay if it were a donation amount to keep the wolves
away from the door, so to speak. insurance isn't for us, it's for the fellow who,
god forbid, may have lunch served through an IV tube. atmo in the big picture,
a grand or so (for liability) is chump change. and the ones who have their
agents combine policies with theft, homeowners, fire, and others can further
reduce that premium by having the local agent gang up all the categories.

As much as I enjoy the entire forum, it all comes down to preaching to the choir. I doubt there is a person on this forum who wouldn't stop to check out a Sachs, Zank, Hampsten, etc but we don't represent the general cycling public. We're bike geeks who lust after carved lugs, perfect welds, panel paint jobs, ovalized tubing, steel straight blade forks, handbuilt wheels, and stems painted to match the frame. Try to explain that to the guy who bought the latest plastic offering from Taiwan.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hkp

OK. I followed the link and read through the thread. What exactly is an "ass hat", and why do you consider people associated with that thread to be such? It seemed to me to be a reasonable discussion regarding alternate approaches to getting a bike, and referenced several very experienced, well known, and generally well respected builders.

Harry Phinney

---

I for one think that pricing one's product in a way that undervalues skill while simultaneously undercutting other craftsmen does noo one any good save the consumer. A good example of this would be DeSalvo's $850 frames. He's not making much of a profit, he's drawing business away from someone earning sustainable profit margins, and he's setting the bar at an unrealistic level. Don't take my word for it, go to nova cycle supply, price out a nice tubeset, then consider insurance costs as discussed earlier. Add the cost of a mill, tig welder fixtures, businesses licenses, filer material, health insurance, dental, retiremebt, mortgage, rent, paint, web space, etc. Then consider the fact that most here would rate the product as being on par with other $3k fransesets. The guy is welding up speedvagens for god's sake! How can a consumer who expects and respects a personal relationship with their builder be cool with a $850 frame cost?

My guess is that a really good welder could make $30/hour. Take a builder who can crank out four premium bikes a week (most do 1-2/week) and you're at ten hours. That's $300"ish" for labor and $500"ish" for all the expenses. Paint, tubes, insurance...all of those expenses listed earlier are more than $500. Paint oftentimes runs $500+. Do the math and look at the suppliers websites to get a feel for expenses. This doesn't ever begin to cover the hours spent emailing and talking on the phone, planning geometries, fit, braze-ons, color choices, billing, etc. Now consider that same price for a builder making two bikes a week. That's twenty hours for $300 and $600 for 40 hours of work, about $2400/month for extremely good welding...before Income tax, social security, state income tax, etc.

Guys cranking out "bargin" framesets simply aren't sustainable, and they hurt those who strive for sustainability. If people want to see the craft live on, then the need to recognize the labor and experience put into handcrafted framesets as deserving money comporable to the carbon bikes that are out there. Add to that, the fact that many of the most experienced among us (grantm, dbrk, darren, brunk, etc.) choose handmade steel frames over other material and production options; justifying inexpensive custom bikes becomes that much harder. The point is...experienced, well known, and respected builders should not be selling bikes for under $1500.
Buyers looking to pay builders less than that (maybe $2k is a better floor) are only putting nails in a coffin.

I agree. I never fault folks for taking advantage of a bargain when they can. We all do. But (there's always a 'but' isn't there?) if you want to support a builder that is charging so little for a hand made bike the best thing you can do is not buy one. If they lose money on each one the more they sell the worse they do.

The builders are of course big boys/girls and can set their pricing however they like and the customers are free to do what they like - it just needs to be kept in mind that all these decisions have consequences for the builder, the customer and all the other builders out there.

IMO of course.

dave

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mjbab@#$%@#$%@#$%@#$%

I for one think that pricing one's product in a way that undervalues skill while simultaneously undercutting other craftsmen does noo one any good save the consumer. A good example of this would be DeSalvo's $850 frames. He's not making much of a profit, he's drawing business away from someone earning sustainable profit margins, and he's setting the bar at an unrealistic level. Don't take my word for it, go to nova cycle supply, price out a nice tubeset, then consider insurance costs as discussed earlier. Add the cost of a mill, tig welder fixtures, businesses licenses, filer material, health insurance, dental, retiremebt, mortgage, rent, paint, web space, etc. Then consider the fact that most here would rate the product as being on par with other $3k fransesets. The guy is welding up speedvagens for god's sake! How can a consumer who expects and respects a personal relationship with their builder be cool with a $850 frame cost?

My guess is that a really good welder could make $30/hour. Take a builder who can crank out four premium bikes a week (most do 1-2/week) and you're at ten hours. That's $300"ish" for labor and $500"ish" for all the expenses. Paint, tubes, insurance...all of those expenses listed earlier are more than $500. Paint oftentimes runs $500+. Do the math and look at the suppliers websites to get a feel for expenses. This doesn't ever begin to cover the hours spent emailing and talking on the phone, planning geometries, fit, braze-ons, color choices, billing, etc. Now consider that same price for a builder making two bikes a week. That's twenty hours for $300 and $600 for 40 hours of work, about $2400/month for extremely good welding...before Income tax, social security, state income tax, etc.

Guys cranking out "bargin" framesets simply aren't sustainable, and they hurt those who strive for sustainability. If people want to see the craft live on, then the need to recognize the labor and experience put into handcrafted framesets as deserving money comporable to the carbon bikes that are out there. Add to that, the fact that many of the most experienced among us (grantm, dbrk, darren, brunk, etc.) choose handmade steel frames over other material and production options; justifying inexpensive custom bikes becomes that much harder. The point is...experienced, well known, and respected builders should not be selling bikes for under $1500.
Buyers looking to pay builders less than that (maybe $2k is a better floor) are only putting nails in a coffin.

---

Is it possible that Mike is actually making just north of $400 dollars a frame here and that further he will be making some profit on forks and components on these 30 bikes as well?
I don’t think its unreasonable that he may see an average of $500 profit on these given the extras he will sell along the way. So 30*500 = 15K profit on say 6-8 weeks worth of work and the intangible good will created toward the customer base may not be as shabby as one might imagine.
Further is it possible in this economy that new orders are not flowing as well as in the past. And that given Mike’s relatively short lead times in comparison to other builders there was a chance that the “factory” was not going to be at full capacity. The fixed costs of a one-man factory do not lend themselves to much cost cutting or layoffs.
While it may not be sustainable and it certainly affects other framebuilders, its not that crazy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SamIAm

The fixed costs of a one-man factory do not lend themselves to much cost cutting or layoffs.
While it may not be sustainable and it certainly affects other framebuilders, its not that crazy.

---

when things were slow-to-a-halt-like slow here i conceived my Strada Immaculata
frame line. i offered them through my dealer network, sold almost 40, and the project
resulted in increased sales and appreciation for my Signature frames atmo. it was a
true learning experience for me, and humbling as well.

$1200 is not too little for a custom frame, in the least.

Some builders may only be able to crank out 2-3 frames a week, but I know plenty of folks(and they are the ones with the $1200 frames) who easily build 2-3 frames a day.

Tig welding and powdercoating tubes that you have on hand and bought in large quantity in a shop space that you own outright, with machines that you paid for 10+ years ago in cash, and doing it 3 times a day, they are doing just fine.

Framebuilding as an in-efficient, "artisnal" "lifestlye" using arcane methods for the sake of artifice and tradition is something that quite obviously, a dedicated core of consumers will choose to support indefinitely. Whining about Curtis, or Rocklobster or 3D building bikes "too cheaply" is bogus.

They exist in a vastly different part of the market than the lugs crowd, and if they were building those bikes (which some of them do, on occasion), they charge the same amount, or thereabouts as other people who build bikes in slow, antiquated ways.

People who build $1200-1400 frames are not insulted by the idea that people who still build bikes with files, brazing rod, hacksaws and tin-snips, "charge so much" and that consumers for some reason would want to pay extra for less-efficient construction.

Building a great custom bike, in the world of wire edm, lasercutting and forging as the standard ways to create metal profiles in industry is already archane, but using 1940's technology(tigs, machines) instead of 1880's tech really does save a lot of time, and thus, money.


It's all good. :thumbs_up:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by suspectdevice

$1200 is not too little for a custom frame, in the least.

Some builders may only be able to crank out 2-3 frames a week, but I know plenty of folks(and they are the ones with the $1200 frames) who easily build 2-3 frames a day.

---

agreed 100% but atmo the OP's point was about someone who is in
the 2-3 frames a week category, not the other. therein lies his concern.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mjbab@#$%@#$%@#$%@#$%

Guys cranking out "bargin" framesets simply aren't sustainable, and they hurt those who strive for sustainability. If people want to see the craft live on, then the need to recognize the labor and experience put into handcrafted framesets as deserving money comporable to the carbon bikes that are out there. Add to that, the fact that many of the most experienced among us (grantm, dbrk, darren, brunk, etc.) choose handmade steel frames over other material and production options; justifying inexpensive custom bikes becomes that much harder. The point is...experienced, well known, and respected builders should not be selling bikes for under $1500.
Buyers looking to pay builders less than that (maybe $2k is a better floor) are only putting nails in a coffin.

---

At the end of the day it's a free market, whether that means Target or Wal-Mart. Or high-end bike frames. Or airplane tickets.

Nobody wants to pay much for anything and when we shop around someone gets hurt.

It could be argued that Orbitz has done more to damage the airline business than any other factor. But it's there and allows customers to get cheap airline tickets.

Everyone thinks everything is overpriced until it affects them or something they care about. Then it suddenly becomes grossly undervalued.

At least that's how I see it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by suspectdevice

$1200 is not too little for a custom frame, in the least.

Some builders may only be able to crank out 2-3 frames a week, but I know plenty of folks(and they are the ones with the $1200 frames) who easily build 2-3 frames a day.

Tig welding and powdercoating tubes that you have on hand and bought in large quantity in a shop space that you own outright, with machines that you paid for 10+ years ago in cash, and doing it 3 times a day, they are doing just fine.

Framebuilding as an in-efficient, "artisnal" "lifestlye" using arcane methods for the sake of artifice and tradition is something that quite obviously, a dedicated core of consumers will choose to support indefinitely. Whining about Curtis, or Rocklobster or 3D building bikes "too cheaply" is bogus.

They exist in a vastly different part of the market than the lugs crowd, and if they were building those bikes (which some of them do, on occasion), they charge the same amount, or thereabouts as other people who build bikes in slow, antiquated ways.

People who build $1200-1400 frames are not insulted by the idea that people who still build bikes with files, brazing rod, hacksaws and tin-snips, "charge so much" and that consumers for some reason would want to pay extra for less-efficient construction.

Building a great custom bike, in the world of wire edm, lasercutting and forging as the standard ways to create metal profiles in industry is already archane, but using 1940's technology(tigs, machines) instead of 1880's tech really does save a lot of time, and thus, money.


It's all good. :thumbs_up:

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No one man shop custom builder is building 2-3 bikes a day, unless they're pre-sized bikes. Interacting with the customer takes as long or longer than building the bike.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Archibald

No one man shop custom builder is building 2-3 bikes a day, unless they're pre-sized bikes. Interacting with the customer takes as long or longer than building the bike.

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i learned long ago that you can be wholesale or you can be retail
but you can't be both, especially if you are making something by
hand and rarely are two items the same. and atmo in this business
no two clients are the same.

ps somehow the grammar at the end of that there first sentence
leaves me cold, but i hope you get the spirit of my point.

Can this discussion regarding pricing be taken to a different post within the Telista forum? Let's keep this post on point about where the builders forum goes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mjbab@#$%@#$%@#$%@#$%

Can this discussion regarding pricing be taken to a different post within the Telista forum? Let's keep this post on point about where the builders forum goes.

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atmo it's better to start one than to selectively move posts from here to a new landing spot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by e-RICHIE

atmo it's better to start one than to selectively move posts from here to a new landing spot.

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The software is censoring out the @#$%@#$%@#$%@#$% in bab@#$%@#$%@#$%@#$%'s name? Seriously. Throat punch for the admin.