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Voluntary, partially paid leave of absence
Be forewarned: This thread is not going to include any of the seemingly now-requisite rage about society and/or politicians.
My employer is offering, on a seniority basis, some pretty generous packages to employees in my group with the opportunity to take leaves of absence for periods of time from six months to up to five years. There is a minimum amount of pay that is on the table for this period of time and the worker cannot return early unless the company recalls the worker early for operational requirements. Most benefits of active employment (insurance being the biggest) remain intact and seniority and longevity continue to accrue. In other words, they can't hire off the street ahead of workers taking the leave.
I am 53 and am seriously considering taking a multi-year leave of absence, knowing that it's not impossible I never return though that would be the plan.
It seems to be a great opportunity to pursue interests or other life goals with some level of certainty that a job is waiting for me on the other side. Of course, in life there are never guarantees but my employer is in the best shape financially of their peers and at least for now I don't see trouble on the horizon. Of course, these measures are being taken by the company to stem the cash bleed they are currently experiencing. These LOAs are an effort to avoid involuntary layoffs, something my employer is proud to have never had to do in their history.
The people with whom I've shared this have all asked me, "So what would you do for five years?" The answer of course, is, "Hide out in the Alps and ride my bike in the summer and ski all winter". But these are things that need supplementing with other more productive activities.
If you were presented with an opportunity for a partially paid, multi-year LOA how would you occupy the time? The pay is enough to cover my living expenses so there would be no absolute need for finding other work, at least not immediately.
More school? Serious volunteering? Another career opportunity? Or just hitting a reset button because I've been working at the redline since 1996 until Covid-19? This is the longest period of relative quiet in my career in 24 years and I'm kind of liking it.
If you were offered a gift of time (because that's what I see here - Time), would you take it? How would you use it? I already know my answer to the first part. I'm just crowdsourcing ideas for the second part.
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Re: Voluntary, partially paid leave of absence
Start a business and yes by all means take full advantage of all your friends located in far reaches of the world to ride bikes and eff' off.
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Re: Voluntary, partially paid leave of absence
I believe you are not married, no kids?
if i were in that scenario, i would take that offer without a half second of hesitation.
i'd put all my worldly possessions that i cared about in a storage unit, rent out my house and live the life of a travelling nomad. that is slightly more complicated in the times of covid, but workable.
what a perfect time of year in the US too. i think i would start by buying a small, inexpensive used RV and heading out west with my camping, hiking and cycling gear and just make up the script as i go. start in socal and migrate north to washington into canada as the weather warms. once the weather starts to turn, sell the RV and head out to New Zealand and do that motorcycle tour i've been dreaming of. plenty of seat time to figure out where to go next.
my bet is, if lived smartly and with your primary residence rented out, this could all be done inexpensively enough to continue living the dream forever into the sunset.
man, to be in your shoes.
do it Jim! i'm ultra envious of the possibilities.
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Re: Voluntary, partially paid leave of absence
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Originally Posted by
Saab2000
If you were offered a gift of time (because that's what I see here - Time), would you take it?
Yes!
Quote:
How would you use it?
Exploring the world a bit more, spend more times on artistic (music and plastic arts) I left unattended for a while. And ride my bike.
Volunteering ? Why not but I have bad experiences with that. Not about the volunteering part itself but if you offer one hand people will grab your whole arm and all your life might be consumed by it unless you have the will power to say no (and I tend to have issues with that and finding where the limit is when it comes to helping others).
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Re: Voluntary, partially paid leave of absence
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Re: Voluntary, partially paid leave of absence
I believe the overall consensus will be a resounding yes regarding the offer of time. But the how you spend that time shouldn't be locked into a finite answer. Like life, moderation would be the key. I'd want to moderate it into several different interests. Give yourself some flexibility and accomplish multiple wants. The important part is to make a list. If it were me, I'd start the time with some nagging chores. Get them out of the way, volunteer, then give myself a vacation. Rinse and repeat.
During the onslaught of the Covid fiasco, I was out of the office for 6 weeks. The idea was to work from home but in reality no one was working. Our project was shut down. So, I spent the time doing exactly what I wanted to do and more importantly when I wanted to do it. It was probably the most productive 6 weeks of my life. Luckily, I was paid as if I was in the office. I was very fortunate to be able to spend that time as I did.
Congrats on the opportunity!
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Re: Voluntary, partially paid leave of absence
Yes! This is your life and time is finite. Simplify things to their simplest and that should hopefully make it easier to do whatever it is that resonates with you.
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Re: Voluntary, partially paid leave of absence
I'm a couple of years younger than you and I would grab that opportunity. As Angry said, I dream of something like that opportunity landing in my lap.
Here's the thing: You don't have to figure it all out today. You take the generous offer. You spend a day, a week, a month after that deciding what you want to make of that time. And then you go do it.
And if you want to change direction 6 months later, you do that too.
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Re: Voluntary, partially paid leave of absence
No SO and kids to worry about?...be the first in line...the healthcare benefits are the most important as you know. Just don’t be bummed when they call you back and you have to ditch the Fignon haircut, closet the Maui Jim shirts, cover up the tatts and plug the holes in your nose and earlobes. But by then, you’ll have ditched your cell phone and they’ll have trouble finding you in France.
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Re: Voluntary, partially paid leave of absence
I'm a bit older than you, but last year my company folded development in the states and offered a month of salary for each year worked as severance. I took the year to make photographs, camp, bike/run (somewhat hampered by an early season injury) and generally live a far more intentional life. I was planning to start doing a part time job this summer but the virus has put the brakes on that plan so I'm taking social security early and continuing the great adventure...
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Re: Voluntary, partially paid leave of absence
if you've got a large enough nest egg to not worry about funding your retirement then I think you should absolutely do this.
I haven't taken an extended break but I got a short furlough in April. Not receiving my normal paycheck was not ideal but the opportunity to explore outside interests was incredible.
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Re: Voluntary, partially paid leave of absence
Absolutely!
Maybe you want to get as far away from flying as possible, but spending some time as a bush pilot in Canada or Alaska sounds amazing to me.
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Re: Voluntary, partially paid leave of absence
Take it.
Time is the most valuable of all assets.
SPP
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Re: Voluntary, partially paid leave of absence
Given years of posting in VS you seem like a dude who has his poop together. If you can afford it and won't miss the job, take the offer and don't look back.
Early 50s, we are same age, is a great time to take a pause and decide what to do next. You have enough life knowledge to make a good decision and enough time to still do a lot of fun stuff.
Am guessing you'd be a heck of a corporate pilot or CFI.
If you want specifics - outside of Park City Utah is a great spot. Year 'round fun. But now we are getting too detailed.
Congrats on your upcoming retirement.
Mark
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Re: Voluntary, partially paid leave of absence
On the one hand, I agree with those who say time is more important than anything/ you only live once/ etc. On the other, I hear my father's voice saying remember that a company only offers early buyouts if it is going to save them money...therefore logically they will be paying you less than they would if you don't take their offer.
That said, what could happen if you/ others don't take the early buy outs? Would you be laid off with a worse financial package?
What position is the union in to protect you?
The most important is can you live on what the offer is for x years after what you think is the age you will live to? Without pencilling the numbers to "make" it work because that is what you want...do a cold hard no emotion look at the numbers. Essentially, really do the due diligence on Plan B for feeding your face and having a roof over your head.
Yes, it is important to include that you would get another job/ reinvent yourself in another career/industry that you would like and that would give you money.
But remember the economy is going to suck for years and financially those plans may be tough to come to fruition. On the other hand, many of the biggest ideas/ companies have been born in absolutely horrible economies.
What happens to your healthcare? In the US, I have personally found that to be the biggest question because even when healthy the unexpected and making sure its paid for is frighteningly costly.
I don't mean to be a naysayer...in fact, my brain and heart say go for it (and I walked from what I did at about your age)...just trying to channel my late Dad's advice to me because thinking about his worries helped me come to my decision and perhaps it will be helpful to you.
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Re: Voluntary, partially paid leave of absence
One thing to consider...
Let's say your salary is $100,000/year.
Now consider the $ you will be paid during your leave of absence, for the sake of argument, call it $60,000.
Stay home and not work at all, earn $60,000.
Go to work, earn $100,000.
Means if you keep working, you are basically willing to do your job for $40,000/year.
Plus you have to go to work.
SPP
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Re: Voluntary, partially paid leave of absence
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Originally Posted by
htwoopup
On the one hand, I agree with those who say time is more important than anything/ you only live once/ etc. On the other, I hear my father's voice saying remember that a company only offers early buyouts if it is going to save them money...therefore logically they will be paying you less than they would if you don't take their offer.
That said, what could happen if you/ others don't take the early buy outs? Would you be laid off with a worse financial package?
What position is the union in to protect you?
This is absolutely about the company wanting to save money. Lots of money. This COVID crisis in aviation is quite real, with business having dropped off a cliff since last year. It's rebounding slowly but the cash burn must be quelled, hence this offer. My company has never involuntarily laid off staff and I think they are trying to avoid it now. They have been quite inventive in creating new business opportunities during this time, particularly with freight on a passenger airline. I've never worked for a company in the past in the US that seemed to act in "good faith". My current employer seems to do that, much to me pleasant surprise.
Yes, I would make less than if I don't take the voluntary, paid LOA. Though I can do other work during that time and since it's not a requirement to get insurance with that job or frankly, any other benefits, it wouldn't need to be a career type of job. It could be self-employment and one idea I have would be of great interest on here. That will remain secret though until and if it comes to fruition.
If not enough people take this offer, the company will likely have to lay people off involuntarily and that is much less pleasant. We have a collective bargaining agreement which stipulates how this happens. It happens in reverse seniority order and if nobody takes the voluntary option I don't know that I'd be senior enough to avoid the involuntary furlough. The silver lining about furloughs in the airlines is that employees are also recalled, in seniority order, when business recovers.
The union protects us insofar as they negotiate the contract and agreements on our behalf. This voluntary leave of absence was absolutely negotiated with the union. And it's been extremely well received, to the point that it's possible more folks take it than originally anticipated.
There's also a VSP, Voluntary Separation Plan, that is very generous as well, but it's permanent. I'm not quite in a spot to take that one. But I expect a number of our employee group will decided they've had enough and they want to chop wood on the farm for years to come and since they're senior to me, I fully support their wood chopping ambitions. Or whatever ambitions they might have.
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Re: Voluntary, partially paid leave of absence
To me it sounds like the decision point is your retirement fund. If they're continuing the health insurance contribution they're making now, that's a big piece of it. I'd plot out what I have, how I think it will grow or not if I stopped contributing to it, and if I thought I'd die before the money runs out. We're in different situations, I'm older than you, but if I got laid off today I'd take the severance and retire when it ended. If I got your offer there wouldn't be any hesitation but the two things I mention above are answered the way I want them right now.
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Re: Voluntary, partially paid leave of absence
Do you hate the people you work with and hate your job? If not, I wouldn't do it. I think air travel domestically returns faster than people expect. I think you will miss a lot of great moments with colleagues moving forward.
I have a few friends who have retired in their early 40's. They were all optimistic in just winging it with all the free time. In their cases, they quickly became bored. When you are working hard and driven all your life, to lose it without something real to fill the gap, you quickly realize the stuff you enjoyed doing once and while, is kind of boring to do it everyday.
I don't know your social group, but I assume most of them will still be working. So you will be solo most of the time. For some personalities, this is okay, for most it is not. You are a pilot. You are probably more a people person than you realize.
I wouldn't do it.
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Re: Voluntary, partially paid leave of absence
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Originally Posted by
vertical_doug
Do you hate the people you work with and hate your job? If not, I wouldn't do it. I think air travel domestically returns faster than people expect. I think you will miss a lot of great moments with colleagues moving forward.
I have a few friends who have retired in their early 40's. They were all optimistic in just winging it with all the free time. In their cases, they quickly became bored. When you are working hard and driven all your life, to lose it without something real to fill the gap, you quickly realize the stuff you enjoyed doing once and while, is kind of boring to do it everyday.
I don't know your social group, but I assume most of them will still be working. So you will be solo most of the time. For some personalities, this is okay, for most it is not. You are a pilot. You are probably more a people person than you realize.
I wouldn't do it.
I appreciate your candor and honesty. The fact is I don't socialize with my co-workers as much as one might imagine. In fact hardly at all. Most people in my business live their lives and we converge for work and then diverge after work. Most don't live where they are based, but commute from all over the country.
I don't know what I will do. The fact that it's not permanent makes it appealing. I would not yet take the permanent option as it's not really viable for my situation.
FWIW, I live alone, with no SO and no children. That is a choice and one I don't necessarily regret. But this career has definitely had a negative impact on other aspects of my social and family life. In spite of having no SO and no kids, I do have a family and a close and quality relationship with my siblings, in-laws, my mother and my nieces and nephew.
The money isn't the biggest obstacle. The biggest obstacle is figuring out how to fill the time in a meaningful, rewarding manner. Just sitting around watching TV between bike rides isn't what I want.
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Re: Voluntary, partially paid leave of absence
So your company is offering a salary and healthcare and you have to do absolutely nothing? Boy did I pick the wrong career. I wouldn't even think about that for a second before I said "YES!!!!"
If you're looking for something to do, I'd be happy to train you to do my job, then you can take my place and I'll take your idle time. :cool:
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Re: Voluntary, partially paid leave of absence
--- at 77.., time is what i have...
financial stability to enjoy...
family to enjoy...
but,
without the physical ability to fully enjoy...
time is in your favor.., you can never roll the clock back...
enjoy
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Re: Voluntary, partially paid leave of absence
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Originally Posted by
Saab2000
I appreciate your candor and honesty. The fact is I don't socialize with my co-workers as much as one might imagine. In fact hardly at all. Most people in my business live their lives and we converge for work and then diverge after work. Most don't live where they are based, but commute from all over the country.
.
I didn't mean socializing after work, I meant the social interaction at work. People are social animals, so just saying Good Morning and idle chat to colleagues is important to our mental health.
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Re: Voluntary, partially paid leave of absence
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Originally Posted by
Saab2000
The money isn't the biggest obstacle. The biggest obstacle is figuring out how to fill the time in a meaningful, rewarding manner. Just sitting around watching TV between bike rides isn't what I want.
Sabb buddy, we have not ridden (let alone seen each other) in years. Last time was when we met you on the road in Potomac. We made significant lifestyle changes since and moved from Potomac to Raleigh metro, NC.
Fast forward.....we purchased a bit of a fixer upper so the house and yard has kept me busy. For a little over a year I did some volunteer work with Habitat for Humanity (planning to return this past March) and very quickly became a build leader. So I led teams of students......some from small black teaching programs (sort of like an apprenticeship) in the local area.....and other volunteers with no practical home building experience. I learned a few things but most rewarding was teaching students and seeing how they progressed during the day.
There is much to cover....if you want to visit Raleigh and chat we have a ton of room at casa sine and a bike that probably fits you.
But quickly, the most important thing to do is jump right into a schedule (incorporate cycling time etc. to further improve health) and interact with others while exploring opportunities.....volunteer, work or starting a business venture......SAAB Cycling tours.
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Re: Voluntary, partially paid leave of absence
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Originally Posted by
sine
SAAB Cycling tours.
The SAAB corporation probably would have something to say about this name, but yeah, that's kind of my plan.
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Re: Voluntary, partially paid leave of absence
In 2018, my old employer offered a Voluntary Separation Plan that offered a month of salary for every year on the job. It coincided with my son graduating high school and heading off to Annapolis so I took it. I departed on my 53rd birthday with six months of pay. I'm also a retired naval officer so I have a monthly income but I'm not ready to retire outright. I took three months off in 2018 before taking a new job in AZ that paid considerably more than my old one. I also went through a divorce so I lost half of my IRAs. This job is about building up my 401 and recovering what I lost and up until the pandemic and market contraction, I was within a few months of full recovery. It will be fine, I bought a shit-tonne of stock during the crash.
Now I'm halfway through an MA in American History that I'll complete in February 2021. My next career will be facilitating online classes for the local community college, but for now I plan on doing my Chief Engineer job until my son graduates from the Naval Academy or they really piss me off. My girlfriend owns a small company that makes soap plus she teaches Art History at the community college, the teaching gig sounds better all the time.
If all I had to do was this Master's program, life would be really sweet and I'd be a bronze god from the elbows and thighs down.
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Re: Voluntary, partially paid leave of absence
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Originally Posted by
Saab2000
The SAAB corporation probably would have something to say about this name, but yeah, that's kind of my plan.
Just to throw in one more perhaps unnecessary advice, again not from me but someone I know...I had a young guy who worked for me. He was a big sailor. US Olympic team etc. One day he came in and said while he liked what he did for a job he loved sailing and was going to do something in that because « you should do what you love ». So, with my best wishes (and my envy) he had the courage to leave and open a sail loft that was supported by one of the big sailmakers. He was very very good at what he did (both in working with me and in sailmaking). About a year and a half later he approached me and asked if I would rehire him. I said of course but why because you are my hero for having the gumption to do what you love. And he said, yeah but I turned what I love into work and that took away too much of the thrill and the joy of my love emotion for sailing. It’s ruining sailing for me.
So, not saying that would happen if you did something cycling...just saying that is something to be aware of...if you do the tour thing it is because you « love restaurants, exploring new places » not the cycling...or something like that. I am sure there is a way to do what you love and earn some money without ruining your love because why else would it be a cliche to do what you love but I felt it should be said. FWIW which is probably not much.
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Re: Voluntary, partially paid leave of absence
I can only speak for myself, but I would take it. I would essentially do what I do now, just rebalancing work time spent vs. my other uses of time (roughly divided between study/writing, physical pursuits and family time). I bet you will not have a problem filling the time with stuff that seems worthwhile to you.
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Typical issue is that at least for me, the more free time I have the more money I need :)
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Re: Voluntary, partially paid leave of absence
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Originally Posted by
Lionel
Typical issue is that at least for me, the more free time I have the more money I need :)
That is the tendency, consumer culture has programmed us for it. But with conscious practice we can overcome that programming.
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Re: Voluntary, partially paid leave of absence
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Originally Posted by
Lionel
Typical issue is that at least for me, the more free time I have the more money I need :)
Yeah, there's definitely a thing where the more I work the less I spend. But then I buy something I don't need. Or it disappears into online accounts which recent history has proven can be fickle beasts.
If I have the time I'm considering I'll have time for experiences that don't need to be super expensive but are in fact priceless. Like trips to cycle in Provence. I would like to repeat the trip of 8 years ago but since then I've been too busy to do so.
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Re: Voluntary, partially paid leave of absence
I would take it. With no kids or significant other, what is the downside? Your healthcare is covered. And the industry will rebound quickly in the next 12-18 months so you might even get your job back earlier than expected (assuming you want it back).
What about your rating?
How will you be able to maintain it without flight hours? Will they cover simulator hours?
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Re: Voluntary, partially paid leave of absence
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Originally Posted by
NYCfixie
I would take it. With no kids or significant other, what is the downside? Your healthcare is covered. And the industry will rebound quickly in the next 12-18 months so you might even get your job back earlier than expected (assuming you want it back).
What about your rating?
How will you be able to maintain it without flight hours? Will they cover simulator hours?
My currency will lapse but all company and FAA required training is part of the job. I would plan to keep my medical certificate up to date. They have to give us 30 days notice to get a haircut and show up at the training center and depending on the length of absence a major training event would ensue. But this isn’t unprecedented as people go out on and return from medical leaves and military leaves all the time.
The issue is that being inactive for years could have a detrimental effect on skills. But it’s a bit like riding a bike. You never forget how it’s done once you’ve learned it.
Maybe I’d try to get a contract flying job somewhere else anyway. But I’d have to check the limitations on that. There aren’t many in our contract but there are a few.
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Re: Voluntary, partially paid leave of absence
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Originally Posted by
Saab2000
My currency will lapse but all company and FAA required training is part of the job. I would plan to keep my medical certificate up to date. They have to give us 30 days notice to get a haircut and show up at the training center and depending on the length of absence a major training event would ensue. But this isn’t unprecedented as people go out on and return from medical leaves and military leaves all the time.
The issue is that being inactive for years could have a detrimental effect on skills. But it’s a bit like riding a bike. You never forget how it’s done once you’ve learned it.
Maybe I’d try to get a contract flying job somewhere else anyway. But I’d have to check the limitations on that. There aren’t many in our contract but there are a few.
I have limited knowledge based on a good friend who is currently a UPS pilot and my older brother who has a private pilot's license and "pilots" often to maintain skills.
My brother is also a pediatric doctor dual certified in emergency medicine and critical care who recently took an administrative role. A doctor may be similar to a pilot, in that, you may still have a license but if you do not keep skills/procedures current no hospital will give you privileges to practice (unless you go through rigorous re-training). He often jokes that he flies to his "moonlight ER and ICU" jobs so that he can keep both his pilot and doctor skills current.
I am sue you will make the best decision that works for you and I hope you maximize the fun if you choose LOA.
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Re: Voluntary, partially paid leave of absence
I might consider doing it for a short period of time (say, 6 months, max) but I would be disinclined to do it long-term because I'd prefer to retire early instead of taking a 2 year break and retire later.
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Re: Voluntary, partially paid leave of absence
Hi Saab- what a good but serious dilemma. Like Mabouya above, I would be concerned about permanent retirement. Can you stop funding your retirement and still make it through the balance of your years? What will happen to your Social Security benefit which is based on the average of your best 35 years of work. If you don't have 35 years you get a 0 for each year short of 35.
If my choice was take 2 years off now but work 7 years more, or work 4 years now and step away with greater certainty, I would probably take a deep breath and keep working.
Only you know those numbers, but don't underestimate (I'm sure you won't but I'll say it anyway) the compounding power of a dollar saved 25 years down the road.
The other interesting question is what to do with your time. Again, only you can answer this question really, but it sounds to me like some of the relationships that have been impacted by your necessarily busy life could soak up a lot of time and I'm sure those people would love to be near you more than they can now.
Good luck with the decision, I'm sure you will make a wise choice.
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Re: Voluntary, partially paid leave of absence
My dad went through a somewhat related scenario in the 80s with the breakup of the Bell system. Stay as a manager within that newly broken up organization or take a multi-year severance package.
He did the latter, picked us all up and moved to the country, started his own business and never looked back.
Take the package and find a new adventure. It sounds like at the absolute worst case you end back up in the current gig, which it seems like you enjoy.
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Re: Voluntary, partially paid leave of absence
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Saab2000
how would you occupy the time?
Saab, I am essentially in your situation right now: my occupation went up in smoke in Australia's "Black Summer" and courtesy of living in a functional country I have income support and healthcare as a matter of course.
Maybe it's me but occupying the time is just not a problem. Proritising the endless list of things I want to do, now there's a problem.
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Re: Voluntary, partially paid leave of absence
I think one misconception about starting a business is that you need to like what you do, meaning you have to (using the example above) like sailing. You actually have to like starting a business and dealing with the day to day aspects of managing the tangled mess that is. Liking what you do in terms of the business’ main focus - sailing, cycling, etc. - may not even be secondary to that. In fact, it is probably better if you just like the business aspect.
The travel market is cratered right now. But in better times, there are plenty of cycling tour companies who value grownups as cycling guides on their tours. Your experiences might be valuable to those sorts of companies.
I’ll also say that if you do not have a natural affinity for unstructured time, you will be better off finding a way to enact some artificial structure on time at least at the beginning. A small part time job is a simple way to do that. Measure your days not based on productivity but interest. Today was interesting. Getting stuck on productivity is a good way to fall into the trap of shopping = productivity. There are ways to be non-productive without being unproductive.
Taking a yoga class (you may laugh) every morning for a few weeks/months may teach you something you can bring with you anywhere you go later. A way to do something simple to begin the day. Get the blood going.
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Re: Voluntary, partially paid leave of absence
The paradox is it is often the main motivation but in many case the best way to have less time to enjoy your favorite hobby or ultimately hate it is to build a business out of it. The solution is to have more than one passion so you afford to sacrifice one !