"the only winning game.., is not to play.."

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Originally Posted by bigbill

I lived through this during the final years of my military career and while I'm glad to be retired, I would have much preferred to fight wars as we do today.

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Since the Iraq war has been won at least twice already, hopefully this victory turns out better than the previous ones.
The military is good at winning wars, the rest of the US government doesn't seem to know anymore what to do after V Day.
Where are the modern Douglas MacArthurs and Gertrude Bells ?

Bring back the draft. No deferments. Mandatory service in some capacity.

I am glad to see that this discussion is civil.

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Originally Posted by colker

That´s a difficult issue because we should never be in a position to support war but... there is an idea that the US created the wars they are dragged into and that´s not true. It´s an ideology, mostly a propaganda of guilt that in the end says mostly the same as in 1939: stay away of the conflict.
The US did not create ISIS . it is not in the least responsible for it´s existence. Isis is religious, an internal division in islamism. It was created due to the military regimes in the middle east. Due to Iran. It´s an ethnical religious struggle for power. Their focus will always be the western powers because that´s their propaganda. They have an apocalyptic death wish. They are built on moral fanaticism. An external enemy is necessary. They are not set to win any war: they aim to destroy freedom in western civilization by forcing security measures.
The left says it´s only about oil in Iraq and everything else is a distraction.. Well, ISIS is not about oil: they are about mind control. They want to lead the muslim population in the world. That´s the kind of power they are after. We are not dealing w/ a pure economy driven world anymore.
The wars in Israel were the first sign of this strategy and thinking. It was the rehearsal, the lab. The israelis could not turn on their beds and expect them to go away. They adopted a state of constant vigilance and attacked preemptively. That´s how they survived.
The Left sees the world in terms of economic imperialism and the western armies as a police of money interests. It is much more than that. It is a conflict of propaganda. Western freedom of choice destroys religious obedience so they destroy back.
Isis cannot wipe out the US army but they are fighting a propaganda war. Staying away is not safe.

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I think you are absolutely wrong here. The seeds of ISIS may be from Islam, but the US invasion of Iraq applied the fertilizer and watered the seeds which allowed them to grow. You remove a government and leave a void, something will rise to fill the void. There are some fascinating PBS documentaries on Frontline about the rise of ISIS.

After watching the Ken Burns series on Vietnam it seems we have really learned little from past mistakes. The Shia Gov abuse of Sunni Iraqi's mirrors the South Vietnamese catholic minority abuse of buddhist monks.

The only way to beat an ideology is to replace it with something better, else you get something much worse. Right now we are on the path of the later.

There is an idea that the US created the wars they are dragged into and that´s not true.

This statement is not supported by the historical record.

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Originally Posted by vertical_doug

I think you are absolutely wrong here. The seeds of ISIS may be from Islam, but the US invasion of Iraq applied the fertilizer and watered the seeds which allowed them to grow. You remove a government and leave a void, something will rise to fill the void. There are some fascinating PBS documentaries on Frontline about the rise of ISIS.

After watching the Ken Burns series on Vietnam it seems we have really learned little from past mistakes. The Shia Gov abuse of Sunni Iraqi's mirrors the South Vietnamese catholic minority abuse of buddhist monks.

The only way to beat an ideology is to replace it with something better, else you get something much worse. Right now we are on the path of the later.

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The US facilitated the rise of ISIS but it´s the root of it. ISIS is not a reaction to US imperialism: it is a reaction to other muslims.

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Originally Posted by ides1056

There is an idea that the US created the wars they are dragged into and that´s not true.

This statement is not supported by the historical record.

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The US responded to situations created by the russians and chinese since the end of WW2. It´s Russia and China which were expanding geopolitical influence after WW2 by creating crisis and collapse. MOstly Russia. Vietnam, Korea and Cuba. There were russian troops and gins in Cuba and Africa. China was behind North Korea.

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Originally Posted by vertical_doug

I think you are absolutely wrong here. The seeds of ISIS may be from Islam, but the US invasion of Iraq applied the fertilizer and watered the seeds which allowed them to grow. You remove a government and leave a void, something will rise to fill the void. There are some fascinating PBS documentaries on Frontline about the rise of ISIS.

After watching the Ken Burns series on Vietnam it seems we have really learned little from past mistakes. The Shia Gov abuse of Sunni Iraqi's mirrors the South Vietnamese catholic minority abuse of buddhist monks.

The only way to beat an ideology is to replace it with something better, else you get something much worse. Right now we are on the path of the later.

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Hmm? Someone implied the Vietcong took south vietnam because of catholic priests? That´s ridiculous: protestant propaganda at it´s silliest. Vietcong could not care less about budhism. Don´t forget what happened in Cabodja under Pol Pot. He was a bona fide communist who studied under the best teachers in France before commiting mass murder.
There is an isolationist ideology in America since the 1930s. That´s what this is about. It did not work well in the 30s.
IIraq and Syria became a horrific nightmare but that does equal all american intervention.

I rest my case.

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Originally Posted by colker

Hmm? Someone implied the Vietcong took south vietnam because of catholic priests? That´s ridiculous: protestant propaganda at it´s silliest. Vietcong could not care less about budhism. Don´t forget what happened in Cabodja under Pol Pot. He was a bona fide communist who studied under the best teachers in France before commiting mass murder.
There is an isolationist ideology in America since the 1930s. That´s what this is about. It did not work well in the 30s.
IIraq and Syria became a horrific nightmare but that does equal all american intervention.

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I think you miss the point. The Catholic Minority Government oppressed the buddhist majority. I am not saying the vietcong cared about this, but the oppressive policies probably help send recruits in the south to the Vietcong. Along these lines, the Shia militia which abused the Sunnis under al-Malaki Gov eventually fed some of the resentment into ISIS recruits. Remember ISIS vowed to take Iraq away from the al-Malaki government.

The current mess that is Iraq and Syria is pretty much a result of American Intervention since the Iraq invasion.

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Originally Posted by bigbill

The fight is going to expand due to the nature of the enemy. We're not fighting a country, it's an ideology and that has no boundaries. We had little show globally until the last several months when we started engaging ISIS instead of containing them. This is going to end up political, but under the last administration, the President didn't want to risk US troops, made promises of no boots on the ground, and managed the war remotely instead of putting decisions in the hands of the people on the battlefield. I lived through this during the final years of my military career and while I'm glad to be retired, I would have much preferred to fight wars as we do today.

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And you fight that ideology through a mix of military, diplomatic and economic levers. We only focus on playing international whack a mole without thinking about the notion that, say, a drone program that kills large amounts of civilians might forment more hatred of the US and create more terrorists. Or that economic inequality and social suppression by countries we consider our allies in the region also instills a wide-ranging resistance to our policies in the region. And that ISIS itself was created in a US prison camp in Iraq from the first war. We literally helped get the band together.

My point is that endless war -- with no consideration of the deeper, underlying issues -- means we'll continue to make the same mistakes over and over again. You don't fight an ideology with bullets and troops alone, yet we still, nearly two decades later, see that as the only real solution. When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

Its high time Congress debate exactly what we want to accomplish and how we want to accomplish it. Heck, we've got a not-insignificant number of members of Congress who were not even part of the original vote, and have never had to vote on the issue. The 2001 AUMF was for the pursuit of the perpetrators of 9/11 and "any associated forces." Kinda hard to argue ISIS is an associated force when, at various points in the Syrian Civil War, those two groups were fighting each other.

I'm not Pollyanna enough to think there aren't people out there who wish to harm the US, our people and our geopolitical goals. But anything we do, both from where I sit and from the Constitution, requires Congress to weigh in. A nearly two-decade old authorization ain't that.

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Originally Posted by vertical_doug

I think you miss the point. The Catholic Minority Government oppressed the buddhist majority. I am not saying the vietcong cared about this, but the oppressive policies probably help send recruits in the south to the Vietcong. Along these lines, the Shia militia which abused the Sunnis under al-Malaki Gov eventually fed some of the resentment into ISIS recruits. Remember ISIS vowed to take Iraq away from the al-Malaki government.

The current mess that is Iraq and Syria is pretty much a result of American Intervention since the Iraq invasion.

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What about religious fundamentalism taking over Egypt, Tunysia, Lybia regimes? It´s happening in Africa and Asia as well. It is not only about Syria and Iraq. It is not about the US. It is a megalomaniac religious mindset that will move along it´s plan of building a world domination caliphate no matter what the US does. It´s absurd but that´s their plan.

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Originally Posted by theflashunc

And you fight that ideology through a mix of military, diplomatic and economic levers. We only focus on playing international whack a mole without thinking about the notion that, say, a drone program that kills large amounts of civilians might forment more hatred of the US and create more terrorists.

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Diplomacy or economic levers would contain ISIS and religious fundamentalist gangs taking over entire countries? You can use diplomacy or bribery w/ Assad, not w/ Isis.