When your friends all move to the 'burbs and become unresponsive...

What follows is a bit of a rant, but I imagine some here may have been in a similar spot, so I'm hoping it's productive.

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I value my long term friendships, and I think all of the research showing that day-to-day friendships matter for happiness is more or less intuitive. (This is where, out of laziness, I cite a Huffington Post article for evidence for something well established.)

What, then, does one do when all of one's friends have kids and promptly flee to the suburbs, becoming almost entirely unavailable for any and all face-to-face interaction? Any suggestions for how a person maintains friendships when the other halves of all of those friendships seem perhaps not uninterested, but totally unwilling to put anything concrete into the friendship?

To be clear, my wife and I don't have kids. We aren't going to have kids. But we'd like to maintain friendships with all of our friends who do have kids. We just have no idea how.

And, to be clear, we've been flexible. When we bought a new house last fall, and there were 3-4 other couples also moving at the same time, we offered to move to a single, central location where friends who were also moving might congregate. We had no personal interest in leaving the city, but we would have done it -significantly altering our lives - if anyone else had been wiling to make some compromises to create community.

Nyet. Nothing at all. Everyone went to hell in their own way, miles and miles apart, in a McMansion of their own suburban hell. Nothing matters anymore but school districts, property taxes, and kids' activities.


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What is to be done? How does one create adult community in a world of local-property-tax-funded, segregated-school-district, anxiety-over-inequality, snowplow parenting?

All friendships ebb and flow. Seek to retain maximum flexibility.

Kids are effing exhausting, and are boat anchors on a social life. I have three, and have essentially had to write off adult relationships for 10-15 years (I’m 8 years in). There isn’t time...especially if the parents or in-laws don’t live close enough to help out. Heck, I have trouble seeing my wife.

That said, I’d love it if some friends would offer to take one of us out for an evening each month. And swap it so that each spouse gets out. It would be even better if I have a babysitter and we could both go out, but that is harder than it should be.

It happens. To be honest, some of your friends with kids will become unrecognizable. And tiring. And then they feel awkward about you not having kids, about you and your spouse having regular sex or uninterrupted time alone in the bathroom or just time alone anywhere or dinner out alone together or no babysitter curfew (even if you might go to sleep at 9PM) etc. and they start to view you as either making them feel inferior or as being completely out of touch with what is real in this world. Of course, they are total idiots. Sleep deprived, without genitalia or spirit or life or oxygen or anything really beyond "My kid etc. blah blah blah yada oh I don't read the news anymore carp blarp etc."

So you just find new friends. Not easy but it happens. I met this guy in the park riding an ancient Colnago and turns out he's an artist and his wife was a gallery owner and after we figured out they were not sociopathic cannibals we invited them over and now we are really good friends. Some of my wife's colleagues failed at being corporate lawyers but they were great people and got new jobs at regular firms which means they have time to goof off periodically. Of course, we've had some blips where we met a couple somewhere and they seemed nice but then at some point they just disappeared but that's why they put people's faces on milk cartons.

Each of us have like 2-3 dyed in the wool tell each other everything do anything for friends from when we were young and stupid. And after many years living far away from each other, several of them have moved back. One lives 4 blocks from our house in the city, one lives 45 minutes from our house upstate, and another will move there whenever they find a house.

Keep in touch with good friends, be receptive to missing friends when they return, go visit people when you have a chance, and don't be surprised if you make new good friends after you think that time in your life has passed. Just keep your eyes open for the opportunity. And keep a good supply of nice cheeses in the fridge. New people seem to like good cheese.

Sometimes things just end. As others mentioned. Maintain flexibility. You're the one with all the time.

Your friend’s needs and priorities have shifted in one short trip to the hospital. They’re putting their kids needs before their own, as they should.

The idea mentioned above of trying to schedule something with just one of them once per month is genius.

Kids will suck the life out of anyone, until around the the time kid gets a drivers license.

Don’t write off your great relationships, just add to them. Add folks that don’t want to talk about kids 24/7. But your friends will return, much more well rounded from the ongoing beating that is raising a kid.

The emotion is heartfelt we also have been thru this. First, in every case as with yourselves having a meaningful relationship with parents is almost entirely on their terms. They are forming their own new bonds with other parents, sleep deprived etc. etc. We don't accept this easily, it changes the formerly beautiful nature/nurture which happened naturally...before kids. Of course it's not "kids" per se it is a life altering change of events that wags this dog by the tail. Aging parents, mental illness and a host of others to name a few.

We lost very good friends a couple years ago. They just stopped becoming available and that was pretty devastating. You adjust, find new community keep rolling along. I'll wager it was you who tended to initiate and "make stuff happen" more so than others. That open heart of yours ain't dead it's just pissed off.

Turns out every time I quit thinking about it I find myself engaging new communities I never considered likely because my (aheem) former friends were always so available. That is no criticism of you or me, it's just the comfortable existence we had.

FWIIW (I hate that) This silly Airstream trailer has changed everything. All you have to do is hitch up, get gone to some awesome location and voila there it is. Bunches of like minded people who love doing the same things and they are interesting, engaged, sharing and sometimes they are not worth my time of day but mostly like minded.

I'll stop, you just need a kick in the ass. xxoo

Becoming a parent completely changes one's life, but that's almost incidental. The fundamental thing is that people come and go, even those of one's blood. You should move on as they have because they are not your possessions and neither are you of theirs.

I grew up in a school where many kids left after a couple of years, even after one year as my best friend did, because of their parents being despatched to another country. I've lived in 8 or 9 cities across 5 or 6 countries. I have at times felt frustrated like you, but I learned that there is not much point to being frustrated. With some, it felt like only yesterday that we were hanging out and chewing the fat, but in fact, it's been like 30 years. With others, even though it's been just 1 or 2 years, I felt that I have nothing to say to them and they have nothing to say to me. And, there's everything in-between.

Personally, I've seen new significant others changing the relationship more than moving to another place.

They move on, you move on. It happens, and it won't be the last time. We tend to crave permanence, but it tends to be illusive, for better or worse.

As a person with no kids this is a familiar thing. It's a bit hard to hear and learn this but when they have the children and make these life choices that's their new priority. I made the error two years ago of attempting to rekindle my past by moving back to where I had lived once before because it wasn't terribly inconvenient to my then new job. But guess what? Peoples' lives had changed and evolved and the old magic was gone. Priorities change and I'll be moving again this summer. No bitterness on my part at all. It was worth a shot but it didn't work out.

Keep your most cherished friends close but when you find out you're the one putting the most effort into maintaining that friendship you kind of have your answer. It is a two-way street and often we find ourselves lacking the reciprocity friendships require.

Do your own thing and see where the chips fall. It is not always easy.

Me and a group of friends solved it by moving to the very same suburb (which is only 15minutes from the city center, we are in a small city after all). So instead of going out we visit each other or meet at a park nearby while the kids enjoy playing together. We don't even need a car for that. I still lost touch with a lot of people, as Saab2000 said it needs reciprocity to work out.

And I am about to relocate in a different country, so I'll soon be the one to flee.

When the old friendships dies or wear out, you can still create/find new ones.

Cameron and Brian have both been my best friends since we were about 10yrs old (that's 24+ years ago now). I moved away first when I went to a different college, then moved to a different town several hours away after college. They both still live back 'home'. Cameron is married with two little girls, Brian is still single. I'm married, and now have a little one of my own now. Somehow we've made it work. We don't get to see each other often...maybe half a dozen times a year? But we all make it a point of staying in touch and getting together every so often. We go to each other's kids birthday parties. We get together at the holidays and exchange gifts. But it's not like we're going out to dinner every weekend together, but it hasn't been like that since we graduated high school.

Other friends of mine, Matt and Phil, that I met after college, things changed after a few years. At first Matt and I were married and Phil was single, no one had kids, it was easy getting together and do stuff, we went to dinner once a week pretty much. The three of us guys worked together for a while, and we all lived close by. Then we all changed jobs, moved to different parts of town, Phil got a girlfriend who turned into a wife, and she sucks, so we didn't see him much any more. Then the Matt and Jen had kids and they had to be home by 6pm every night during the week, and weekends were mostly doing family stuff with their parents, plus we were on the road visiting our folks many weekends. Then Phil and Mrs. PITA had kids, moved to a different town. We basically gave up on trying to hang out with them. We're still friends and occasionally send each other texts or something, but it's not like it was before.

Now that I have a kid, I can understand why Matt and Jen suddenly disappeared after having their first one. You really don't understand how it changes things until you do it yourself...and we have a great easy going baby who likes going to bed every night *knocks on wood*. But we can't do stuff during the week after work. We both work till 5/5:30, get her home around 6ish, feed her, play with her, then bath and bedtime around 7/7:30. Then we can eat dinner. But we can't go out to dinner with friends, 'cause the little lady has a melt down when she's ready for bed, and that's no fun for anyone. There's simply not enough hours in the day. I don't ride during the week now...if I did a post-work ride my wife would be on her own with the little one (which is doable, but it's way better to tag team it) and I she'd be in the bed by the time I got home, and I wouldn't get to see her. And at this point in her life, I'd rather go home and play with her than go ride my bike - and I love riding my bike! But every day she's changing and growing and learning and doing new things, I don't want to miss it.

And the weekends? We hardly ever have a weekend to ourselves any more, and when we do, we stay home and relax or take care of chores around the house. We see our parents WAAAAAAAY more now than we did before we had the little lady haha.

So...my advice:
Plan stuff in advance so the folks with kids can be ready, and let them dictate the schedule. AND, the kids are part of the deal now, so plan things they can come along with - and you gotta like their kids.

Where are you going Thomas? Must be hard to leave all those vineyard covered hills.

Grand changes in one's life tend to reveal a lot about friendships. Nearly 4 years ago now my wife and I sold most of our earthly possessions (and our home) and moved across the ocean. The first year was a whirlwind of working very hard to maintain important relationships with the friends that we had known and loved for many years (in some cases, decades). In the end, I would say that we had about a 90% attrition rate. At some point it becomes very clear who is going to make the effort to maintain a relationship that was once easy and has now become less-so and those who will not. A couple of our friends facetime or skype with us on an almost weekly basis, a couple have even visited. Others completely fell off the map, stopped responding to our requests for calls/chats and even flaked on us when we came to visit our old city. It's not exactly the same situation, but similar.

I think in the end we are better off for it. Our circle of friends is significantly smaller than it once was but also significantly richer.

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Originally Posted by theflashunc

Sometimes things just end. As others mentioned. Maintain flexibility. You're the one with all the time.

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Maybe this comment was made in jest, in which case I apologize for calling it out, but if not: this is one of the assumptions that get laid on those of us who don't have kids that I think is hugely unfair and thoughtless. My wife and I decided not to have children for a variety of reasons and people make the assumption that we are therefore free of all responsibilities and available/free all the time. We're not. Time is a limited, non-renewable resource and every individual gets to decide how they want to spend it. Want to spend it on kids? Good for you. Want to spend it on work? Bikes? Planting trees? Watching Netflix? Also, good for you. Having children is a choice, just like every other fashion of spending your time. Don't devalue the decisions of others by judging how they alot their time. The inherent implication is that how a child-having person spends their time is prioritized and more important than how a childless person spends their time.

Oh, one more thing to add - with little ones (especially really little ones) - man, it's a PITA to go anywhere. You have to take so much crap. You have to really want to go somewhere for it to be worth the effort.

Sunday we were going to go to lunch. First we had to get the baby's bag ready, well, make sure it's still well stocked with supplies. Extra change of clothes, diapers, wipes, a few toys, the pad to lay down on the changing table (if there is a change table), extra bibs, hand sanitizer. And since it would be time for her to eat, and she can't really eat normal food just yet, make sure we have food for her, which includes a bowl and little baby sized spoon.

Okay, got it all. Let's load up, we get in the truck.

Oh yeah, we need to get her sippy cup for water. Go back inside.

Back in the truck, start backing down the drive - oh yeah, the high chair cover is in the dryer, we need it (high chairs pretty everywhere are nasty and sticky). Back up the drive, back inside, etc. As I was going back in the house I thought to myself "man, I miss when we could just go somewhere."

When I get back in the truck my wife said "Remember when we could just go?"

LOL. I love that lady.

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Originally Posted by j44ke

Where are you going Thomas? Must be hard to leave all those vineyard covered hills.

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Malaga !

What bothers me the most is that the friends with kids stopped inviting me (us) over for family parties. I think that the "they don't have kids so they must not want to be around kids" mentality sinks in. I used to consider my buddy's family part of my extended family. Not close enough to call them up to hang out but close enough that we would enjoy seeing each other a few times a year. That ended years ago.

Some people are good at staying in touch and making time to hang out. Whether it is going out to dinner or just inviting us over after work. They want adult time so they make it work.

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Originally Posted by Octave

The inherent implication is that how a child-having person spends their time is prioritized and more important than how a childless person spends their time.

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I don't think that's what he meant, I don't think he meant having kids is better or more important than not having kids. The difference is kid-free people have more choices available. Once someone makes the choice to have a kid or two, lots of other choices are taken off the table.

The kid free person can stay at work as late as they want or need to. After work they can go ride bikes, or go the gym, or go hang with friends, or go out to a movie, or whatever. Someone with a kid, depending on the kids age and their partner/spouses schedule, may or may not have those same choices available.

I, alternatingly, having become a parent a year and a half ago, resent or resemble many of the above remarks.

Off the cuff:

>Go to your friends. You will help them remain cool and young. If they know what's important in life at all, they will recognize what a gift you are to them and love you forever; we have had people beer us free babysitting, come for dinner at our house at 5:30 when we should be on our second cocktail instead of eating an early dinner, do Saturday AM pancakes, etc. We are thankful! It can be extremely isolating to be a parent. For instance we moved away for a job that I hated ... so we moved back to NC asap to raise our kids with people who we loved and were also raising young kids our boy's age. But we have to work bloody hard to see them, if we do at all. Bed time happens at 7:30 every night. Full time childcare is worth $15k/year. It's not cheap to get a babysitter. Go to them whenever you can. Ride your bike there. There are greenways in MN, right?

>You're a good adventure planner. There's photographic evidence on the forum. :cool: Help them have good adventures with their kids and you. Kids are bloody fun and they are hilarious. It will also keep you young and fun to be the cool uncle. Thank your friends with kids for that.

>Culture is strong & we live in a weird historical moment. Everyone has to move away from family and friendships to make the six-figure degrees we were all sold eventually pay off. People are lonely and the way online "life" works now does not help. We all need to go against the grain. My wife and I are trying hard to make "50-year" decisions with friendships, against the tyranny of the quotidian and urgent - we just drove 12 hours with an 18-month-old to go to friends who were in deep need. I think this kind of thing will pay off. We missed work. We spent some gas money. But WTF, we love these people I know we will need them some day, too.

>Hold on as loosely to ideology as possible (our approach to different lifestyles, be they urban, yuppie, DINK, etc., or suburban, 2.4 kids, etc. are undergirded by one ideology or another - at least a belief in what life is about and how it should be organized). Hold on loosely to ideology and as tightly as possible to people. What we are experiencing are just obstacles, nothing more. They can be overcome.

Good luck to all of us fighting the good fight.

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Originally Posted by Octave

Maybe this comment was made in jest, in which case I apologize for calling it out, but if not: this is one of the assumptions that get laid on those of us who don't have kids that I think is hugely unfair and thoughtless. My wife and I decided not to have children for a variety of reasons and people make the assumption that we are therefore free of all responsibilities and available/free all the time. We're not. Time is a limited, non-renewable resource and every individual gets to decide how they want to spend it. Want to spend it on kids? Good for you. Want to spend it on work? Bikes? Planting trees? Watching Netflix? Also, good for you. Having children is a choice, just like every other fashion of spending your time. Don't devalue the decisions of others by judging how they alot their time. The inherent implication is that how a child-having person spends their time is prioritized and more important than how a childless person spends their time.

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Also, there are more than one way to do parenting.

Kids, especially babies are much more adaptable and much less fragile than some parents tend to think of it. When we got our first baby, we were the first couple in a relatively large circle of friends to have kids. We eased it up a bit on the getting out with friends but we never stopped. We made a point of not buying every little specialized appliance/tool/thing for babies and limited ourself to common sense. All immediate needs of our baby would have to fit in a single regular size backpack and they did*. As long as a baby is fed, hydrated and wears appropriate clothing it can stay with you pretty much anywhere. It's is especially easier nowadays with the ban on smoking in public places and bars. Our babies were carried in many drinks, dinners. We sometimes came both with the kid and we took turns to decide which one of us would stay with the friends well into the night and dance clubs. Our babies started their night in all kind of places, my second daughters even fell asleep right before the national day's fireworks and didn't wake up. Sadly most of these "friends" didn't do the same once they got their own kids.

So yes, you don't have to give up on everything and the flexibility should come from both parents and non parents.

* Dustin, I advise you to do the same, life is much simpler that way. Most of that crap you carry probably only serve a purpose in a "what if" situation and can be replaced by something "not baby specific" found in the place you visit. A basic kit doesn't imply filling the trunk of your car.

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Originally Posted by mjbabcock

Kids are effing exhausting, and are boat anchors on a social life. I have three, and have essentially had to write off adult relationships for 10-15 years (I’m 8 years in). There isn’t time...especially if the parents or in-laws don’t live close enough to help out. Heck, I have trouble seeing my wife.

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this. over and over and over. i'll chit chat with my mom on the phone and she'll be like "why don't you ever go hang out with friends to relax."

well, because i don't have time for friends. work + kids + side work + home ownership + attempting to ride. work is a beat down, because i don't enjoy my job, and there is not a single person here that i can relate to. kids are kids. and mine are especially hard (for me), because i'm the step-father and struggle with getting the respect of the boys (they're young, and i completely understand what they're going through).

i will say though...when i got married and inherited 2 little ones, the change was extreme. but now that the friends from my previous life are having kids, we suddenly have all this new stuff and things to talk about. as someone said....ebbs and flows.

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Originally Posted by sk_tle

Malaga !

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Oh well, maybe you won't miss the vineyards! That's a great move.

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Originally Posted by dgaddis

I don't think that's what he meant, I don't think he meant having kids is better or more important than not having kids. The difference is kid-free people have more choices available. Once someone makes the choice to have a kid or two, lots of other choices are taken off the table.

The kid free person can stay at work as late as they want or need to. After work they can go ride bikes, or go the gym, or go hang with friends, or go out to a movie, or whatever. Someone with a kid, depending on the kids age and their partner/spouses schedule, may or may not have those same choices available.

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That's the problem with this assumption, though - kids-free people do not inherently have more time available. They have chosen to alot it elsewhere. Person A has children, which I understand is a huge amount of time-commitment. Person B has a full-time job (40h/week), hustles freelance in the evenings (20h/week) and coaches cyclists 5 mornings a week before work (20h/week). Person B has no kids. Person A and person B have both made their choices and neither commitment takes precedence over another, that's all I'm trying to say. For person B, "lots of other choices are taken off the table" too. But none of those details matter, because no ones time is worth more or less than anyone elses. If you choose to prioritize children then kudos, that's a really big life choice. But those who have chosen other paths may have similarly dedicated their time elsewhere.

One thing I've learned since having kids, especially when 2&3 arrived together, is that to see anyone ever, you need to plan 3x as many events as you actually want to take part in, because someone is always sick, has to cancel, etc.
It's exhausting. And I'm not a planner, so the idea of coordinating all these events that likely will fall apart is pretty daunting. But we make it happen on occasion (mainly thanks to my wife...)

I now live (again) in the same place that many of my good college buddies have lived since we all graduated, and out of 7-8 of them, I probably see them each 2-3x a year, and it was only the year we turned 40 that you'd ever see more than a couple at once.

Hell, I haven't been out to dinner with my wife since September.

I'd say either re-double your efforts to make things happen, or let it go entirely, because if you assume the old levels of effort are sufficient, you'll probably be disappointed.

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Originally Posted by rec head

What bothers me the most is that the friends with kids stopped inviting me (us) over for family parties. I think that the "they don't have kids so they must not want to be around kids" mentality sinks in. I used to consider my buddy's family part of my extended family. Not close enough to call them up to hang out but close enough that we would enjoy seeing each other a few times a year. That ended years ago.

Some people are good at staying in touch and making time to hang out. Whether it is going out to dinner or just inviting us over after work. They want adult time so they make it work.

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Often though it is the decision that "I can only manage the kids, not entertaining friends also." So as the friend without kids, you get jettisoned just because there isn't enough left over in the tank to say "Hi, how are you?"

Agree with Thomas. As an outside observer, less is more when it comes to wrangling kids. In the US, we buy way too much stuff for our kids and then we wonder why they develop into little self-absorbed despots. But don't get me started. This thread is about making friends not irritating them! :-)

The end of the original post is an avalanche of city-slicker cliches about white people raising kids. So, if new parents pick up on the "I'm cooler than my newly dorky suburban hell parent friends" vibe, that may be a turn-off. They don't give you a pair of pleated Dockers and white tennis shoes when you leave the hospital with your kid.

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Originally Posted by sk_tle

* Dustin, I advise you to do the same, life is much simpler that way. Most of that crap you carry probably only serve a purpose in a "what if" situation and can be replaced by something "not baby specific" found in the place you visit. A basic kit doesn't imply filling the trunk of your car.

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That's exactly what we do. Everything we need to be out and about all day (minus the stroller) fits into a backpack. Overnight trips require more stuff obviously, but normal day to day is a smallish backpack.

I'm looking forward to when Nora has enough teeth that she can eat just normal food.

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Originally Posted by Octave

Grand changes in one's life tend to reveal a lot about friendships. Nearly 4 years ago now my wife and I sold most of our earthly possessions (and our home) and moved across the ocean. The first year was a whirlwind of working very hard to maintain important relationships with the friends that we had known and loved for many years (in some cases, decades). In the end, I would say that we had about a 90% attrition rate. At some point it becomes very clear who is going to make the effort to maintain a relationship that was once easy and has now become less-so and those who will not. A couple of our friends facetime or skype with us on an almost weekly basis, a couple have even visited. Others completely fell off the map, stopped responding to our requests for calls/chats and even flaked on us when we came to visit our old city. It's not exactly the same situation, but similar.

I think in the end we are better off for it. Our circle of friends is significantly smaller than it once was but also significantly richer.


Maybe this comment was made in jest, in which case I apologize for calling it out, but if not: this is one of the assumptions that get laid on those of us who don't have kids that I think is hugely unfair and thoughtless. My wife and I decided not to have children for a variety of reasons and people make the assumption that we are therefore free of all responsibilities and available/free all the time. We're not. Time is a limited, non-renewable resource and every individual gets to decide how they want to spend it. Want to spend it on kids? Good for you. Want to spend it on work? Bikes? Planting trees? Watching Netflix? Also, good for you. Having children is a choice, just like every other fashion of spending your time. Don't devalue the decisions of others by judging how they alot their time. The inherent implication is that how a child-having person spends their time is prioritized and more important than how a childless person spends their time.

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Easy man. I'm also in the no kids ever camp. I've seen it first hand. You have more free time. Especially if the kids are little. Give em space and let em do their thing. Friendships change and evolve and sometimes, yeah, they disappear.

But kids are a whole nother ballgame. I've seen friends age like a Dorian Gray painting in those first couple years after having their first. Shit is hard. It's one reason why I've got no interest in it.

You've got two things parents don't, money and free time. That's okay. Again, to your point, you made different choices. Hell, they're the same ones I've made. But I stand by my original point. As you mentioned in your OP, you were willing to reorient your entire life to maintain some of these relationships. If that doesn't speak to your kidless flexibility, what does?

Fair enough - I had no intention of offending you. The only point I wanted to make is that the choices we make are just that, choices. I do have kidless flexibility, but that is not inherently true for all kidless people. Like I said before, everyone gets to choose how they spend their time and telling somebody that they're "the one with all the time" just because they have stated that they don't have kids is a bit of a loaded assumption, in my opinion.

But that's just, like, my opinion, man.

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Originally Posted by Octave

Fair enough - I had no intention of offending you. The only point I wanted to make is that the choices we make are just that, choices. I do have kidless flexibility, but that is not inherently true for all kidless people. Like I said before, everyone gets to choose how they spend their time and telling somebody that they're "the one with all the time" just because they have stated that they don't have kids is a bit of a loaded assumption, in my opinion.

But that's just, like, my opinion, man.

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Don't forget, most people who have kids spent a lot of time as adults without kids (like me), so they're not talking out of their ass when they say the kidless have more time. Of course you have more time. That is precisely the choice you have made, the choice to have the time to do whatever you want (within reason) free from the worry and responsibilty of keeping a small human alive.

You didn't choose cycling, or work, or painting over kids, you chose time. The choice isn't between what you do with your free time and kids, it's whether your choose to have the free time in the first place.

We didn’t have kids for ten years after being married and I call that era BC...before children. Time was much more available, our lifestyle was much more detached from planned and routine activities and we also weren’t in a digital world, which can be a time suck in itself...work, play, surfing, etc. AD...after diapers...changed everything and time became a premium and not that there is a direct correlation, but friends moved on and new friends came on board...different interests, relocation, new partners, etc.

A few common threads that have tied us to both old and new friends, have been kid’s activities, in my particular case coaching (because I couldn’t stand sitting on the sidelines and second guessing life...kids are more interesting that whining parents), short and extended joint vacations and food, with an emphasis on dinner. Rather that always going to a restaurant, we take turns hosting, planning meals, discussing wine and just have a fantastic time. We have been able to connect some pretty diverse individuals over a meal, who all have something in common with us as friends, yet open up discussions with an array of perspectives. Our kids even laugh about what they call “our parent’s Bohemian dining events”.

On a related note and almost to a tee, our friends that haven’t had kids, have all been able to retire quite early and do all of the things that we did BC (travel extensively, own recreational homes, follow riskier career paths in some cases). It takes a while to get back in the game after the kids move on and time above ground becomes more scarce as well. We are fortunate to have a couple of longtime friends with whom we get to share time and thoughts with; some have kids and some don’t; and I think that we have all remained friends because we know that life required adjustments.

The back and forth about time here is interesting.

Last night I wrote this after getting fed up trying for three months and at least ten emails to get a single overnight mountain bike trip planned in August.

One of the guys who can't seem to take two days out of the whole summer away has a stay at home wife and a pretty much full time nanny.

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Originally Posted by Dallas Tex

They’re putting their kids needs before their own, as they should.

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The crap that sure seems to stress them out can't even loosely be described as a need, though.

No kid needs to grow up in a house with 1500 sq ft per human. There were royals who occupied less spacious quarters.

No kid needs to be on a steady drip of $$$ educational activities as a preschooler. Cello lessons as a three year old? Mandarin group at the community center? Kid's yoga?

No kid needs to go to a preschool that requires an "interview." What does that even mean?

No kid needs to be in the state's best school district. Hell, we could homeschool these kids and have them college ready by age 12.

No kid needs to have a parent food journal everything that goes in their body to confirm the optimal nutritional plan is being executed. We all grew up on Cherios just fine.

These aren't cliches, these are actual examples from friends' lives.

It's endless, and I can see how it's stressful. But none of it is needed.

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Originally Posted by j44ke

And then they feel awkward about you not having kids, about you and your spouse having regular sex

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This made me laugh out loud. I thought it was just my friends who seemed fascinated with our sex life, as if it were just a live action skin flick on loop every night.

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Originally Posted by caleb

The back and forth about time here is interesting.

Last night I wrote this after getting fed up trying for three months and at least ten emails to get a single overnight mountain bike trip planned in August.

One of the guys who can't seem to take two days out of the whole summer away has a stay at home wife and a pretty much full time nanny.

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Agreed. It is possible to have kids and still do some fun things and see your friends, but it requires a teamwork-mindset with you and your spouse/partner. You won't be able to do as much as if you didn't have kids, but enough. I played in a rock band once with 3 other guys, out of the 4 of us, 3 had kids and professional timesuck jobs, but often it was the kidless guy who had the most scheduling problems because he did not have good teamwork with his wife sorted out.

I’m another never-kids DINK. From what I’ve observed from our parent friends, who are mostly in the little league & soccer phase now, is that having kids-- especially in an expensive metro area like SF-- is absolutely brutal. Just grueling. We always come away from seeing them thinking, how the hell do they do it? It’s not for me, that’s for sure. But, what I’ve found helps maintain relationships with our parent friends is not projecting your own feelings about kids onto them— trust that they actually are enjoying the shit out of it, as hard and miserable as it looks to you. When they say “it’s all worth it” I take them at their word, and that helps me feel more interested in sharing their experiences as opposed to steering clear of anything involving the kids. Sometimes it’s easier said than done. But yeah, they rarely have time or energy to hang. But we keep a relationship percolating, and in another 5-10 years when the kids are way too cool to hang out with their parents, we’ll pick up where we left off.

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Originally Posted by caleb

No kid needs to be in the state's best school district. Hell, we could homeschool these kids and have them college ready by age 12.

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Generally Caleb, I agree with you, but here I think you are off the reservation. (and this phrase has a dark past)


Great, you have an academically advanced child with no social skills just as they are going to enter the most difficult part of their childhood transitioning from family focused, to outside peer group focused.


Your cliches on the parents are accurate, but it takes two to tango, so no adult man needs to go mountain biking with his buddies on a weekend away from family. (just because it's not a necessity doesn't mean you can't want it)

Your buddies have moved on, let it go. The one having an issue here is you, not them.
If anything, count your blessings it's them and not you and enjoy your ride and other recreational post ride activities which will remain nameless.

(actually, I 'd probably feel a little sad for some of your friends because there are probably other factors in the equation which really are a burden for them to deal with. Maybe your buddy is too proud to admit his wife is hell, or he is miserable or any number of insecurities people have )

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Originally Posted by sk_tle

Also, there are more than one way to do parenting.

Kids, especially babies are much more adaptable and much less fragile than some parents tend to think of it. When we got our first baby, we were the first couple in a relatively large circle of friends to have kids. We eased it up a bit on the getting out with friends but we never stopped. We made a point of not buying every little specialized appliance/tool/thing for babies and limited ourself to common sense. All immediate needs of our baby would have to fit in a single regular size backpack and they did*. As long as a baby is fed, hydrated and wears appropriate clothing it can stay with you pretty much anywhere. It's is especially easier nowadays with the ban on smoking in public places and bars. Our babies were carried in many drinks, dinners. We sometimes came both with the kid and we took turns to decide which one of us would stay with the friends well into the night and dance clubs. Our babies started their night in all kind of places, my second daughters even fell asleep right before the national day's fireworks and didn't wake up. Sadly most of these "friends" didn't do the same once they got their own kids.

So yes, you don't have to give up on everything and the flexibility should come from both parents and non parents.

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So true. We used to make do with a medium sized messenger bag and marvelled at friends who carried so much stuff as if they were a travelling circus.

Some people fuss too much about WHERE the baby should sleep as if the child can/should sleep only in his / her cot. Yes, they should probably have regular sleep cycles but WHERE is not that important. We went out with the infant daughter in tow to restos, dinner parties, etc., and she would just sleep wherever we were. When she was 2 weeks old, the wife flew out to SF from NY with her for an all-night photo shoot of a recently completed project. No problems: she just slept when she needed to sleep.

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Originally Posted by caleb

The crap that sure seems to stress them out can't even loosely be described as a need, though.

No kid needs to grow up in a house with 1500 sq ft per human. There were royals who occupied less spacious quarters.

No kid needs to be on a steady drip of $$$ educational activities as a preschooler. Cello lessons as a three year old? Mandarin group at the community center? Kid's yoga?

No kid needs to go to a preschool that requires an "interview." What does that even mean?

No kid needs to be in the state's best school district. Hell, we could homeschool these kids and have them college ready by age 12.

No kid needs to have a parent food journal everything that goes in their body to confirm the optimal nutritional plan is being executed. We all grew up on Cherios just fine.

These aren't cliches, these are actual examples from friends' lives.

It's endless, and I can see how it's stressful. But none of it is needed.

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Some people create more stress for themselves. And why can't kids just be kids any more? Call me a dinosaur, but I find it all rather bizarre.

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Originally Posted by Christian Fox

The end of the original post is an avalanche of city-slicker cliches about white people raising kids. So, if new parents pick up on the "I'm cooler than my newly dorky suburban hell parent friends" vibe, that may be a turn-off. They don't give you a pair of pleated Dockers and white tennis shoes when you leave the hospital with your kid.

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That is actually cool now. Google norm core.

Yeah, that list is indicative of insanity/vanity. Let them go. They lost their minds.

To keep the conversation going, the thing that seems crazy to me these days is how parents are using athletics as a tool for social advancement. It’s in tons of sports; soccer, baseball, gymnastics, hockey. Parents plow incredible amounts of energy into their children’s athletic careers. Sort of reminds me of East-Asian academic intensities wherein students study before school, go to school, and then work with a tutor before homework in the evening.

My kids are fucked...but they are gonna have fun.

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Originally Posted by zambenini

That is actually cool now. Google norm core.

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Nervous. Don't want New Balance ads popping up everywhere.

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Originally Posted by caleb

The crap that sure seems to stress them out can't even loosely be described as a need, though.

No kid needs to grow up in a house with 1500 sq ft per human. There were royals who occupied less spacious quarters.

No kid needs to be on a steady drip of $$$ educational activities as a preschooler. Cello lessons as a three year old? Mandarin group at the community center? Kid's yoga?

No kid needs to go to a preschool that requires an "interview." What does that even mean?

No kid needs to be in the state's best school district. Hell, we could homeschool these kids and have them college ready by age 12.

No kid needs to have a parent food journal everything that goes in their body to confirm the optimal nutritional plan is being executed. We all grew up on Cherios just fine.

These aren't cliches, these are actual examples from friends' lives.

It's endless, and I can see how it's stressful. But none of it is needed.

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This is not intended as a personal criticism, Caleb.

But I find a distinct irony in this list being posted on this particular forum, where we voluntarily engage in lengthy threads about which bicycle to buy next, recovering perfectly good saddles so they have the desired color, and the appropriateness of housing and handlebar tape choices.

Some people get super wrapped up in things, as I think we can all recognize, but geez, if you are going to obsess about something, it might as well be your kids. I don't think those parenting styles are optimal but I know a lot of perfectly nice kids that grew up that way.