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replacing an old high end receiver
I'm not much into the new technology but do have an old turntable, cd player that i power with high quality speakers. i did have a vintage nakamichi receiver which is going. What is around that gets high marks, I still listen to a few f.m. stations and don't have much need for blue tooth. A friend recommended outlaw( Audiophile appeal: The Outlaw Audio RR 216 stereo receiver - CNET) anything else good? -Mike G
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Re: replacing an old high end receiver
You have tried this guy for your Nakamichi? Electronics Service labs
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Re: replacing an old high end receiver
Something to consider. Thanks!
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Re: replacing an old high end receiver
Naim makes
Excellent receivers. I own one.
If you want something cool...
Leben CS3 integrated amplifier | Stereophile.com
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Re: replacing an old high end receiver
Quote:
Originally Posted by
joosttx
I listened to that amp at a hifi shop in Montreal last summer, set up with some really efficient Devore speakers and a killer Brinkmann turntable. wowza.
-g
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Re: replacing an old high end receiver
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Originally Posted by
GrantM
I listened to that amp at a hifi shop in Montreal last summer, set up with some really efficient Devore speakers and a killer Brinkmann turntable. wowza.
-g
I heard with those small devores (gibbons?). Heaven
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Re: replacing an old high end receiver
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Originally Posted by
classtimesailer
I've always wanted to try ESL, but they don't have late or weekend hours.
Also in Connecticut, I recommend Stereo Surgeons. I've had several items repaired. Interesting guy to talk to, performs thorough work.
If you're looking to replace your receiver, I suggest you consider a separate amp and tuner. Not for the snob appeal, but for flexibility-you can upgrade wattage and amp features as necessary, and outboard tuners usually have better performance and shielding. Don't forget Craigslist and eBay, either. There's always something attractive for sale.
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Re: replacing an old high end receiver
my pockets aren't deep enough to have sampled much of this stuff (but I'm lucky enough to have some old mcintosh stuff), but op is on paper looking at an integrated tuner/preamp/amp, and the one recommended to him by a friend retails under $1000. There are no doubt quite a few of these available at the big box/home theater outlets, all with limitations obviously. So I would ask the following:
how much power do your speakers like/need?
how many speakers to be driven (2, 7?)
is there a subwoofer involved?
how good of an FM section/tuner do you want need?
same for the turntable/phono section?
if you don't need bells and whistles of bluetooth and home theater junk, it might be worth repairing or finding something vintage, built when phono sections and fm tuners were not just an afterthought. or consider separates, but space and budget then come into play. good luck
maybe this one should be moved over to OT?
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Re: replacing an old high end receiver
OP - given your location repair should be pretty easy. Otherwise for something modern Outlaw and maybe Emotiva(?). I think both of those brands go for high quality at less than crazy audiophile hype prices. That said I think most modern receivers are going to give pretty clean sound. They may not have that certain something vsaloners look for in bikes and audio etc. but they aren't that bad. It's too bad Monoprice hasn't introduced a receiver. Their Monolith series is supposed to be a great value:performance. I keep waiting for their 7 channel amp to go on sale.
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Re: replacing an old high end receiver
I like the H/K two channel receivers as they are priced around $300-400 and include a phono section for those included toward vinyl.
Picked up a 3470 several years ago and paired it with some old Mission 770F speakers and my original Adcom 575 CD player. Not our main system but sounds decent.
The current units appear to have appropriate digital connectivity options and carry the unit numbers 3700 and 3770.
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Re: replacing an old high end receiver
Went down this road a decade ago, when my old Yamaha died. Shopped all over and sat in a bunch of listening rooms, bringing my own Beethoven and Leo Kottke to create at least one constant in the testing. I eventually gave up--there were too many variable to making a meaningful comparison. In the end I landed on a McIntosh 6400 integrated amp, which had a warmth that was close to my dad's old tube Heathkit monster amp. When it warms up, the 6400 is nicely warm. It doesn't fill out until you get up there in volume.
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Re: replacing an old high end receiver
Decided to update this post. Despite not liking the aesthetics(non-black) I went with outlaw audio. It' fairly decent. Thought the old Nakamichi had warmer sound but in general its a clean unit and I appreciate the HD radio. It has an Eq feature which honestly I can't perceive regardless of setting. Been listening to a lot of WBGO -Mike G
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Re: replacing an old high end receiver
Around five years ago I picked up an Onkyo TX-NR626 that is "good enough" to give me movie-watching sound and listening to records sound. It excels at neither but if someone just wants to check the box at a reasonable price, it's a decent place to land (or whatever the newer model is).
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Re: replacing an old high end receiver
This thead makes me realize I keep stuff way too long. My Thiels are from 2002, My CD player not much newer and I still have a working turntable from the 1980's
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Re: replacing an old high end receiver
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Originally Posted by
fastupslowdown
This thead makes me realize I keep stuff way too long. My Thiels are from 2002, My CD player not much newer and I still have a woring turntable from the 1980's
That sounds about right actually....and is probably where most here are, except for those who have the means to enjoy audiophile equipment AND fancy bikes.. I can only afford one or the other, and am much more interested in Super Record than marginal gains when spinning records.
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Re: replacing an old high end receiver
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Originally Posted by
Clean39T
Around five years ago I picked up an Onkyo TX-NR626 that is "good enough" to give me movie-watching sound and listening to records sound. It excels at neither but if someone just wants to check the box at a reasonable price, it's a decent place to land (or whatever the newer model is).
I have one of these as well, and "good enough" is an apt descriptor. As in, my needs can be met with good enough. Currently in the basement where it channels the local NPR station while I fiddle with bikes, occasionally plays some Spotify.
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Re: replacing an old high end receiver
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Originally Posted by
fastupslowdown
This thead makes me realize I keep stuff way too long. My Thiels are from 2002, My CD player not much newer and I still have a working turntable from the 1980's
My Thiels are a lot older than yours - 1990!
You do, however, make a really good point. Over the last few years I've replaced my ancient pre-amp and power amp. My Audible Illusions Modulus was from 1987 and provided me over thirty years of excellent music. My Forte 1A arrive in 1990 (just after my Thiels!) Both of them were failing, slowly, as capacitors started leaking, volume pots started crackling, and finally as upper midrange music turned to fuzz.
So now I've got a Rogue RP-1 pre-amp and Schiit Aegir power amp. And goddamn. They are $2,500 worth of wonderful.
This new stuff is excellent. Next I turned to replacing my (1992) Enlightened Audio Designs DSP-7000 DAC. I had Schiit send me their entry high-end Bifrost 2. And it was... really good. But not as good as my ancient EAD. So back it went. I may still try their Yggdrasil. And I may also shop around for new speakers once I can leave the house.
But in the meantime my modern/antique HiFi sounds so damn good. Whether I'm listening to Fetch the Bolt Cutters or Blue Train.
So check out new equipment for sure. But don't be so sure it'll make you want to replace your old stuff. Good luck and have fun!
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Re: replacing an old high end receiver
I would want a device that has modern digital signal processing. The basic ones can do frequency correction to make the response flat, such as Audyssey (used by Marantz or Denon) or MCACC (Pioneer) or YPAO (Yamaha). There's no point in having great speakers or a great amp if the room is out of whack. Let's face it, all rooms have far less than flat frequency response. The better units can do impulse control (cancellation of room reflections) like the software from Dirac Labs (used by NAD, Emotiva or ARCAM). The difference between having well-engineered DSP and not having it is far bigger than the difference between X amp and Y amp. As a result, once you get past about the $1000 price point having proper modern software is a must. If I had to choose between a $1500 NAD and some $3000 amp with no DSP, I'll bet my paycheck that the NAD would win a blind listening comparison.
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Re: replacing an old high end receiver
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Originally Posted by
davids
... Both of them were failing, slowly, as capacitors started leaking, volume pots started crackling, and finally as upper midrange music turned to fuzz.
Really, the only reason to suspect "old" gear. Caps fail, components drift, and repair is sometimes difficult, if not impossible. Otherwise... I'm not sure there's any reason not to still run your WE 92A amp into 757a speakers unless you're looking for something in particular.
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Originally Posted by
9tubes
I would want a device that has modern digital signal processing. The basic ones can do frequency correction to make the response flat, such as Audyssey (used by Marantz or Denon) or MCACC (Pioneer) or YPAO (Yamaha). There's no point in having great speakers or a great amp if the room is out of whack. Let's face it, all rooms have far less than flat frequency response. The better units can do impulse control (cancellation of room reflections) like the software from Dirac Labs (used by NAD, Emotiva or ARCAM). The difference between having well-engineered DSP and not having it is far bigger than the difference between X amp and Y amp. As a result, once you get past about the $1000 price point having proper modern software is a must. If I had to choose between a $1500 NAD and some $3000 amp with no DSP, I'll bet my paycheck that the NAD would win a blind listening comparison.
Integrating DSP if you're going to go that route is smart. I can't get down with the repeated DAC->ADC->DAC->ADC->DAC that happens with some setups regardless of the advantages of correcting for room/driver/cabinet effects. However, all these amps seemingly now being "class-D" is... suboptimal.
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Re: replacing an old high end receiver
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Originally Posted by
davids
My Thiels are a lot older than yours - 1990!
You do, however, make a really good point. Over the last few years I've replaced my ancient pre-amp and power amp. My Audible Illusions Modulus was from 1987 and provided me over thirty years of excellent music. My Forte 1A arrive in 1990 (just after my Thiels!) Both of them were failing, slowly, as capacitors started leaking, volume pots started crackling, and finally as upper midrange music turned to fuzz.
So now I've got a Rogue RP-1 pre-amp and Schiit Aegir power amp. And goddamn. They are $2,500 worth of wonderful.
This new stuff is excellent. Next I turned to replacing my (1992) Enlightened Audio Designs DSP-7000 DAC. I had Schiit send me their entry high-end Bifrost 2. And it was... really good. But not as good as my ancient EAD. So back it went. I may still try their Yggdrasil. And I may also shop around for new speakers once I can leave the house.
But in the meantime my modern/antique HiFi sounds so damn good. Whether I'm listening to Fetch the Bolt Cutters or Blue Train.
So check out new equipment for sure. But don't be so sure it'll make you want to replace your old stuff. Good luck and have fun!
what keeps me from going bonkers is that i'm in a 1000+ square foot apartment. Bigger and better speakers require more generous spacing requirement to sound optimal and the threat of angry neighbors limits the amount of bass and volume, and then there is the space a pre-amp, separate tuner etc would require. I'd never realize the benefits of upgrading much beyond where I am.
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Re: replacing an old high end receiver
I was just thinking that the PC that does all my A/V is the oldest piece of equipment I have in use. Then I remembered that my Denon 3808 is still in use as a power amp only.
I just switched to separates. I now have a Dirac enabled pre/pro and a class D amp for the L/C/R speakers. I am hearing things in songs that I never heard before. Loving it.
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Re: replacing an old high end receiver
Count me on the room correction train. I replaced a B&K AVR202 (~$3k new) with a Denon x3700 last fall (~$1k) and everything is much cleaner especially in the bass/sub region. Sound is not quite as warm but I could probably dial that back in. I wish receivers were on class D already, the new stuff has >100db signal to noise+distortion and runs cool with low power usage. Modern technology is actually better when it is designed to be.
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Re: replacing an old high end receiver
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Originally Posted by
sailor
Sound is not quite as warm but I could probably dial that back in. I wish receivers were on class D already,
Several Pioneer Elite AV receivers have Class D amplification. Some Onkyo receivers do as well.
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Re: replacing an old high end receiver
Im glad to see the renwewed interest in proper audio gear. I no longer pretend to be an audiophile but still like gear that plays music correctly. There so much good stuff out now, and the internet makes used/vintage gear very accessible.
I recently went back to receivers and got a new Cambridge Audio AX85. This is a humble choice but i wanted simplicity: good sound characteristics and enough power to do what i need in my small home. The phono section is very good for the price and it even takes streaming. Most of all- the tuner section works well and i can listen to all the programs clearly. Check it out if your in the market for a new receiver or basic integrated.
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Re: replacing an old high end receiver
I've only heard one Class D amp (Rogue's integrated) and was not a fan. I thought it sounded both dark and kind of sharp. YMMV
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Re: replacing an old high end receiver
My new amp is NCore 502 modules. This guy is building them for a steal. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...ncement.16835/ He does not have a real business or even website yet but I'm really happy with it. In that post there is a link to a review on the same website. These reviewers are not known for just handing out praise. I looked into building the amp myself but couldn't do it for what it cost to get it from Buckeye Amps.
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Re: replacing an old high end receiver
I'm not a fan of that website, Audio Science Review. Their position is that measurements correlate directly with sound quality. That has not been my experience.
This is not a diss of the NCore 502. I haven't had the opportunity to hear it!
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Re: replacing an old high end receiver
Class D is becoming more popular due to the cost advantage. I have a NAD 758v3 which is Class AB and it appears there are still plenty of AB designs around (even MacIntosh is using AB these days). But here's the thing: I wonder if I could really hear the difference. My suspicion is that sound processing makes far more difference than class of amp, if the amps are suitably matched in quality level.
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Re: replacing an old high end receiver
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Originally Posted by
davids
I'm not a fan of that website, Audio Science Review. Their position is that measurements correlate directly with sound quality. That has not been my experience.
This is not a diss of the NCore 502. I haven't had the opportunity to hear it!
I have similar suspicions about Audio Science Review. Maybe I'm biased because I have a NAD 758v3 and they got very poor measurements. The sample test results were far from what would be objectively expected. I was taught that the first rule of engineering testing is that if you get test figures that are wildly anomalous from expected, the first thing to do is check the test equipment, then the test protocol, then get another sample. The website has refused to do any of the above. However, they have received 783 comments and 102,000 page views, so refusing to retest has had its benefits.
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Re: replacing an old high end receiver
Apologies up front for sending this so far OT
I'm surprised to see so many here are cool with class D... promoting minuscule THD numbers and S/N ratios is like telling someone your bike is good because of the modulus of the CF fiber in the tubes.
It's not that I think switching amplifiers can't be made to sound good, I just think making them sound good requires a ton of parts, and the more stages and parts, the more issues imho. There's two reasons I think class d is now being pushed in the high end world: 1. most folks are buying on buzz, reputation, and numbers and damn if you can't make the numbers (WPC, THD, S/N, etc..) pop with class d. and 2. the supply lines are drying up for good linear components so folks are being forced into switching mosfets. And it's true--all the money is in getting transistors that behave close to perfectly as switches and nothing is going to bring back Hitachi, Toshiba, or Semi-South discrete linear silicon. Pass has been able to pull an e-richie and get linear systems to keep some of the supply chain going in good jfets, but like good steel tubing and lugs, eventually the supply chain will dry up because the industry has gone another direction. I'm sure consumer expectations will adjust whether it's actually and improvement or not (and my money is on not).
All that said, having listened to some of Linkwitz's personal speakers I know DSP and intentional correction for the realities of imperfect parts and rooms can have really, really good results. I also *enjoyed* Pass' cheapo open baffle setup with a first-watt amp in the same room better, although it was not an A/B test in any manner (Siegfried was demonstrating speakers, Nelson was demonstrating an amp, and it was a DIY event in an awful space for listening). There's a lot to be said for a simple system that fits well together. It's the gestalt of it yo. It's why I suspect davids' system works so well--a simple mu-follower voltage stage into a complementary BJT circuit operating fully in class A, feeding an electronically simple multi-way speaker that is forgiving about directivity (at least horizontally, just don't stand up...) should be enjoyable. Personally, I've found satisfaction in going as simple and as few parts as possible source to speaker.
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Re: replacing an old high end receiver
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Originally Posted by
davids
I've only heard one Class D amp (Rogue's integrated) and was not a fan. I thought it sounded both dark and kind of sharp. YMMV
You are possibly very sensitive to IMD (intermodulation distortion).
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Re: replacing an old high end receiver
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Originally Posted by
spopepro
I'm surprised to see so many here are cool with class D...
My first AV receiver was a Yamaha DSP-A1 which powered Sonus Faber speakers. Bit of a gamble as the receiver was purchased at one store and the speakers at another....never auditioned together. Once installed I found the sound uninspired and a bit harsh but I stuck with it for many years. The speakers are exceptional (auditioned at audio store in Bethesda, MD) and craftsmanship.....unmatched Italian.
The Pioneer Elite SC-05 that I purchased in '08 was based on print reviews only......aka another gamble. That the price was recession induced 50% off....helped. I hooked up the Elite and I was impressed. The sound was smooth.....and unlocked much of the speakers potential.
Sold the Yamaha for decent money (the unit has it's fans) and the Elite is very much enjoyed to this day.
Can't comment on today's higher end products. Have not auditioned anything in the last 10+years.
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Re: replacing an old high end receiver
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mark Kelly
You are possibly very sensitive to IMD (intermodulation distortion).
I've been cursed with the gift of golden ears...
Like I said, I've heard one and only one Class D amp, the Rogue Sphinx. And it's made by a company whose products I clearly admire, since I own a Rogue pre-amp. So I really can't generalize to all Class D amps. But I'll admit my experience kept them off my shopping list for an amp.
And also like I said, the Schiit Aegir is a seriously great amp. As long as you don't need much power. I was worried that it wouldn't be adequate for my moderately inefficient speakers in a medium-sized room at reasonable old-guy volume. But it is way more than adequate for me!
Attachment 117675
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Re: replacing an old high end receiver
I only brought up the ASR site because that is where Buckeye Amps is running his business from. He is just a grad student building amps in his spare time. As for the site I think of it as a tool. I don't base my purchases on their reviews but do use like to see what they said.
As for the Class D debate. I get plenty of clean power and don't know what IMD is. I'd like to be able to hear better but sometimes a curse can be a blessing.
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Re: replacing an old high end receiver
Intermodular distortion, which is the second most common distortion after harmonic inherent to all amplifiers. IMHO it’s the more important one, since even numbered harmonics are mostly consonant (and even the 3rd harmonic is a perfect interval) I don’t think harmonic distortion is something most people “hear” and indeed some folks report liking it, feeling like it adds to the “depth” or “richness” of the sound. A good example of this in live performance is really good chamber music. If you listen to a great brass quintet who is playing exceptionally well in tune additive interference can make some of the harmonics sort of pop into the sound and it’s kind of magical.
IM is harder to track down, and you’ll need someone like Mark who is a real engineer rather than me to go into all the reasons why. But my understanding is that it’s due to the non-linear interplay of different components and different signals. So it doesn’t get measured or reported as often as harmonic distortion because it’s harder to measure. I think the only time I feel like I can “hear” IM clearly is on cymbal crashes. They sound excessively “crunchy”.
Switching amplifiers generate gobs and gobs of noise from the switching. They then are supposed to filter all of it out with a large set of low pass filters (the mess of inductors and caps on those modules). They also naturally generate quite a bit of harmonic distortion, but because gain is cheap, they use gobs and gobs of negative feedback. They remind me a lot of op amps—the numbers are great, but no one is going to mistake the TL072 as a great sounding amplifier.
I’m not opposed to measurement, it’s an important part of the process. I just think that we don’t always measure or emphasize the right things. It’s like folks who measure the TDS in their espresso and declare that the bigger numbers are better, when taste rarely backs it up. But there’s a class of folks who will say “well, it’s objective, so people’s taste is not to be trusted” instead of questioning the meaning of the measurement. After all, it’s about the enjoyment of taste, or sound. As Pass says “it’s entertainment, not dialysis.”
My amp makes around 3 watts per channel at about 4% harmonic distortion depending on configuration. It sounds great.
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Re: replacing an old high end receiver
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Originally Posted by
spopepro
I don’t think harmonic distortion is something most people “hear” and indeed some folks report liking it, feeling like it adds to the “depth” or “richness” of the sound.
Heh-heh. When I was in college circa 1979-80 my roommate had a wonderful sounding hi-fi consisting of a pair of McIntosh MC-30 monoblock tube amps with a Dynaco preamp and Acoustic Research AR4 speakers. After extolling the virtues of those MC-30 amps to a friend of his who was an electrical engineer at MIT, his friend offered to benchtest the amps.
They consistently measured between 8% and 10% harmonic distortion.
But as I said... wonderful sounding.
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Re: replacing an old high end receiver
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bob Ross
Heh-heh. When I was in college circa 1979-80 my roommate had a wonderful sounding hi-fi consisting of a pair of McIntosh MC-30 monoblock tube amps with a Dynaco preamp and Acoustic Research AR4 speakers. After extolling the virtues of those MC-30 amps to a friend of his who was an electrical engineer at MIT, his friend offered to benchtest the amps.
They consistently measured between 8% and 10% harmonic distortion.
But as I said... wonderful sounding.
Your friend had far more disposable cash at university than I did. : )
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Re: replacing an old high end receiver
Quote:
Originally Posted by
spopepro
I’m not opposed to measurement, it’s an important part of the process. I just think that we don’t always measure or emphasize the right things. It’s like folks who measure the TDS in their espresso and declare that the bigger numbers are better, when taste rarely backs it up. But there’s a class of folks who will say “well, it’s objective, so people’s taste is not to be trusted” instead of questioning the meaning of the measurement.
This.
I was in the measurement camp until I had the opportunity to hear two systems, the only difference between them being the turntable and tonearm - the rest was not just the same brand & model, but the actual items: cartridge, preamp, amp and speakers. Changing between the two well-regarded turntables made a large difference in the sound quality of the music.
When I got over my shock, I realized (even at the tender age of 24) that whatever the experts were measuring was not capturing all of the important qualities of the equipment.
I started trusting my ears. I listen to the characteristics of live music - tonality and dynamics are particularly important to me - and the characteristics of recorded music. I've tried to create systems that reproduce the characteristics most important to me.
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Re: replacing an old high end receiver
Quote:
Originally Posted by
spopepro
Switching amplifiers generate gobs and gobs of noise from the switching. They then are supposed to filter all of it out with a large set of low pass filters (the mess of inductors and caps on those modules). They also naturally generate quite a bit of harmonic distortion, but because gain is cheap, they use gobs and gobs of negative feedback. They remind me a lot of op amps—the numbers are great, but no one is going to mistake the TL072 as a great sounding amplifier.
FWIW the feedback in a class D amp is applied before the output filter* and is there to correct the non-linearity in open loop gain rather than the noise.
I mention this not to nit pick but because it is also the cause of the IMD: since the open loop gain is non linear, the feedback is also non-linear but in the opposite sense. Applying feedback cleans up the THD but inevitably causes IMD: two inputs into a non-linear stage is the way you build a modulator if you want one (eg for a FM radio).
The non-linearity in the open loop gain is because the output transistors are not perfect switches; such a thing does not exist. I believe current research is all about improving the switches, including in some cases a move away from silicon to new semiconductors such as gallium nitiride. The idea is to get the open loop gain near enough to linearity to be able to reduce the feedback and improve the sound quality.
It used to be said that if an audio circuit wasn't linear enough to work without feedback it would measure well but sound bad when the feedback was applied. Maybe the Class D people are remembering this.
* this is largely because the output filter inserts a large phase delay which would make the feedback loop very hard to stabilise
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Re: replacing an old high end receiver
Quote:
Originally Posted by
9tubes
Your friend had far more disposable cash at university than I did. : )
True story: He picked up those two MC-30s -- along with two more MC-30s, a pair of of MC-275s (!), and at least one other monoblock amp of similar vintage -- from an auction for less than $200 total. :nuts:
They all had to be re-tubed, and a couple of them needed the output transformers replaced. Selling one of the MC-275s as-is more than covered the cost of the repairs; selling the other MC-275 after it was fixed paid for his room and board for an entire semester.