what works? what doesn't? whose marketing gets us hot?
carl strong shows what works for him: http://www.strongframes.com/webisode/
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what works? what doesn't? whose marketing gets us hot?
carl strong shows what works for him: http://www.strongframes.com/webisode/
you're selling space - the space you occupy. if your space is
rich with enthusiasm, it will be contagious, and folks will pay
you for it atmo.
This is an off the cuff reaction, so it may vary a little if I were to think about it. For me, what draws me to one brand over another is the product's affiliation with something that makes me feel like we have in common, the heritage, or a personal connection.
Affiliation - I dig the Rapha Continental, so I have certainly perused and considered the builders on there more seriously than I might have if they hadn't been affiliated with The Continental. Likewise, the Hampsten brand -despite being built by others-intrigues me because I was a big fan of Andy back in the day and I respect what he has done with his life since. It's not to say that I wouldn't appreciate those bikes on their own, but (not knowing Steve) believing that Andy has some influence in the product makes me look at them a little more. The review of their aluminum bike recently didn't hurt either...
Heritage-Bianchi, DeRosa, Sachs, Della Santa, despite their vast differences in product and even methods, get second looks from me all the time because of the history of the "brands"
Personal Connection - I was a Moots fan first and foremost because a buddy of mine works there. My appreciation of the product came after the exposure to the frames from seeing my friend's. Likewise, "knowing" some of the builders through this forum and the Serotta forum makes me much more likely to take a look at them.
Magazine ads don't work. The only one that ever did anything for me was the Klein with the Porsche on it. That was cool.
you have to have a point of view and you have to share it.
w/o that, you're just another soulless provider of goods and services.
Most of these bulletpoints shared below can easily be adapted to *any* kind of purchase, whether a product or a service.
The vast majority of custom high-end builders have a good grasp on these concepts.
The youthful builder-come-lately who is essentially fabricating frames as a hobbyist might have difficulties rising to these business challenges:
Contributors:
* builder / designer accessibility
* builder willingness to reach client for project collaboration
* flexibility / vision
* strong opinions
* occasional non-bicycle coverage, e.g. newspapers
Detractors:
* overreliance on static magazine advertisement
* lack of "methodology behind madness"
* overpromising / underdelivering
It seems to me that success comes when a builder stops trying to be all things to all people, focuses hard on what really winds their clock and begins to make innovations based on their vision. The best marketing and/or sales pitch comes from customers who really appreciate that the builder solved a problem for them, whether it's handling, fit, aesthetics, and on and on. It's slow and takes time to foster, but having your customers sell for you is infinitely valuable.
i couldn't have said it better myselfQuote:
Originally Posted by zank
as a matter of fact, i'm sure i did say this
and because of this, i'm stealing zank's straight fork idea
seriously though, the most successful builders seem to have a style that they work in - very few seem to be the old-fashioned tell-me-what-you-want-and-i'll-do-it type of builder. most of them have that vision thing - it may be hard to see sometimes, but it's there.
Terry sold me on your bike. Oh, and so did Turd.Quote:
Originally Posted by zank
Quote:
Originally Posted by hampco
i think if you look back at history (as opposed to looking ahead at it...)
you'll find that most framebuilders built their frames, not their clients' frames.
if that needs explaining, you wouldn't get it. it was truly a byproduct of the
bike boom and many 70s era usa cyclo-journalists that many folks assumed
that framebuilding and what is seen as custom framebuilding were one in
the same. few, if any (and the any were a dot on the pie chart of anomalies)
framebuilders really made the frames to the whims of the clients. to be sure,
concessions were made. but essentially, the framebuilders who were around
then and are now part of the long list of names that are considered "masters"
- these folks knew what went where, and stayed within their own guidelines.
the notion that a client would agonize over geometry details and eventually
get to a framebuilder's doorstep with notes on napkins and graph paper is a
very provincial one at best, and a naive one as well atmo.
ducking.
This says it all.Quote:
Originally Posted by e-RICHIE
The OP was about marketing, and it's interesting to note that much of the commentary is about reputation.
Average marketing is getting a consumer to act on a real or perceived need.
Good marketing is about creating a positive emotional connection that results in someone acting on a real or perceived need, and feeling good about it.
Great marketing is sustaining good marketing over a long enough run that people consistently talk about you or your brand in a positive light... a reputation.
We do actually pay for space on the pages of publications, a little, but not really for marketing reasons per se. We are in VeloNews and Bicycle Quarterly, not because those adds sell for us (they don't) but because we want to support publications that we believe should stick around.
The effective marketing that gets done around here is by our customers. Simple as that. There are a few of them on this forum and others who sell our frames for us. I surely could not afford the kind of print or video marketing that would actually sell bikes. If we didn't generate a few happy customers every once in a while, we'd be sunk. That is the case for ALL of the builders who have been at it over a long period of time. Simple.
But don't think those small ads in Velonews aren't seen. They are. Every once in a while I'll buy a Velonews and I do see the Spectrum advertisement. I imagine others do too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Kellogg
Anyway, is reputation the result of superior product/service? Or is it the result of marketing? How much of marketing is advertising? They may not always be the same.
I can remember large, full-page ads by Richard Sachs in Velonews (I think) about 15 years ago. Those cannot have been inexpensive.
they were reasonable, for the time. i was always on a contract withQuote:
Originally Posted by Saab2000
them for insertion frequency so the per issue $$ was not that high.
i always suggest advertising in a periodical for a multi-season run
if/when at all atmo. if you plant an ad once, it's a donation.
As you say, its clearly not a guy with blueprints going to a fabrication shop to make a widget = custom. Whether it’s a handmade frame, basket, mug, or kitchen table, customers choose the craftsman that suites them and they make products in their style for the customer made-to-measure. Do you have a word / phrase to represent that without writing a paragraph?Quote:
Originally Posted by e-RICHIE
Quote:
Originally Posted by gt6267a
yes, of course atmo -
http://www.re-played.com/images/tn_S...k_-_My_way.jpg
Spot on.Quote:
Originally Posted by e-RICHIE
We've committed to two years with Rouleur, and more recently, Embrocation. It's not inexpensive, and it's hard to make any direct connection to sales, but both pubs are read by enthusiasts for the most part, run by good people who love the game, and Rouleur provides vital international exposure.
Marketing in the proactive sense does not come naturally to product-centric folks, but in today's day and age, ignoring it in the spirit of "if you build it, they will come", is a risky proposition. Great reputations don't happen by product or marketing alone; you need both, and you need to sustain it over time.
There's no doubt that a great reputation is earned one customer/bike at a time, but if customers don't know that you exist, or what you represent as an alternative to all of the other messaging that they are bombarded with in mainstream media, it will take a long time to build enough of a business to keep the lights on, perhaps too long for most folk's cash reserves.
Yesterday's customers are indeed our most valuable asset in the marketing mix, but attracting tomorrow's customers is not something that can be left to good fortune... especially in today's environment.
Guys like Richard have it dialed, whether it was a conscious execution of a pre-conceived brand strategy or not, he has established a virtuous circle of great product, customer experience, marketing "voice", and sustained execution of all three over a long run.
Think about it, given that he is effectively sold out through to retirement, why should he continue to advertise, show up at trade shows, sponsor race teams, and maintain an online presence? Aside from elements of self-indulgence (lots of this stuff is just plain fun and gratifying), and citizenship (good to promote the game); I'd posit that he is wise enough to know that you can't let the new car smell and shine wane, and take your past rep for granted, when folks are still out there waiting for your product.
Gary is correct. Great marketing establishes an emotional connection with the consumer. They love the product, the image they feel the product projects, or the way having the product makes them feel.
Another great marketing strategy is leveraging the halo effect. Essentially, reinforcing your brand's image thru associations with other brands. These brands typically have an already established perception with consumers that is consistent with the way you would like your brand to be perceived.
For a few examples, look to what Seven did with Audi USA. Also, what Gary has done with his companies. IF has done a great job of leveraging the halo effect thru their association with Rouleur/Rapha/Embrocation. On the Baileyworks side of the business...think of the Mercedes commercial Gary posted a few days ago.
a client with two, or a family with four of your bikes. to others, that speaks loudly. also, sticking to your "style". people should be able to tell it's your work without a logo on it. my dos centavos, steve.Quote:
Originally Posted by hampco
Quote:
Originally Posted by hampco
steevo i think you should also reply to the question(s) you pose atmo.
so this sub forum/thread is visible to the entire world? strange from a marketing perspective IMO.
my marketing takes the approach of build what i build, build it and they will come. That's pretty low key, non active participation. I did however spend many years in the marketing BU of a very large (over $50B at the time) company.
the word marketing is so vague. there are so many aspects of marketing within a company. some of which have little to do with outreach.
we all participate in "marketing" in one way or another if we are at all involved with a product.
It's only vague if one allows it to be. Philip Kotler, who authored the definitive marketing textbook used in business schools for the past few decades defines it as; "a system of business activities designed to plan, price, promote, and distribute want satisfying goods and services to present and potential customers". His work has often been synthesized as the 4P's; Plan, Price, Promote and Place. Nowhere in the definition does it talk about making anything. In other words, it assumes that if you are making something with the intent to sell it and yield a return sufficient to get back up and do it over again, then you need to plan, price, promote and place the stuff that you make.Quote:
Originally Posted by crumpton
Plan in the marketing context means assorting the merch (e.g., road, CX, MTB, BMX, utility, etc.). Price seems obvious and self explanatory, but complex as noted by the thread(s) triggered by DeSalvo's 10 year anniversary offer. Promote is the "P" that most people automatically jump to when they think of marketing in too literal a sense. Promotion is both passive and purposeful. Taking an ad out is typical, but being a stand-up professional in a holistic sense is also promotion, albeit passive. Place is about choices of where to compete (sell direct, through dealers, etc.).
I don't mean to prattle on or be overly pedagogical, but I get PO'd when folks diss marketing, as if it's something unscrupulous. If you're in business, be in it to win it, defining winning on your own terms, but it ain't a hobby, its competition. And you can't compete if you don't earn enough of a return to play more than once.
Just making something and assuming that enough people will; 1) find you, 2) buy from you, and 3) tell enough people about it to drive some to also buy from you is risky business in today's era of information transparency.
Let's assume that your brand or product starts with a point of distinction that folks discover on the random walk, and then it starts to grow because of word of mouth. If you don't take some proactive control of marketing your "voice", you risk two things; knock-offs and brand hijacks by folks that are able to speak louder.
It all comes down to the words of a musician friend of mine; "you can wear that gag if that's your choice, but your thoughts want wings, now give 'em a voice, andale". Marketing is about having a voice and getting people to hear it.
according to wikipedia:
“Marketing refers to the promotion of products & services, advertising, pricing, distribution channels, and branding. The term developed from the original meaning which referred literally to going to market, as in shopping, or going to a market to sell goods or services.
The American Marketing Association (AMA) states, "Marketing is an organizational function and a set of processes for creating, communicating and delivering value to customers and for managing customer relationships in ways that benefit the organization and its stakeholders."
Marketing practice tends to be seen as a creative industry, which includes advertising, distribution and selling. It is also concerned with anticipating the customers' future needs and wants, which are often discovered through market research.”
what works here can be summarized thus:
we sell through cinghiale cycling tours. folks see andy and his guides on their hampstens and his happy customers on their hampstens and they want the fit, the fun, the newbikesmell. having andy as a business partner is huge - no other word for it.
we sell locally. local riders see local riders on hampsten and tournesol and that drives more sales. and i’m here and breathing and riding and picking up the phone and answering email and showing bikes and the shop. this works here in seattle, boulder to a lesser extent
we sell through the internets. i’m active on this forum and before this the other one and i pop up here and there and i like talking about the things that interest me: bigger tires, fenders, riding unpaved roads, frame design and materials. without the internet - and to a lesser extent, bike forums - my company would not be coming up on our tenth anniversary.
we sell through the website. people love the pictures, especially with the bikes shot au naturelle. more and more, the bikes i show on the site are my versions of the platonic ideal for that particular “model”. they’re seldom perfect but some of them are pretty good. some of the models sell, some don’t, but they all seem to belong for now.
using builders such as IF, Moots/KentE, Martin, et. al. takes the question “is the frame well-built?” out of the equation. The question then becomes “are these designs any good? do they move me to become a customer?”
a good logo, a few snazzy duds, some national press - it all helps. but word-of-mouth is still the best.
Everything I know about marketing I learned in Highschool(from the founders of this company). Some guys who I honestly do believe to be among the most talented brand direction and marketing strategists ever. The book I have in the office of all our old catalogs, ads, press clippings and race results is incredibly humbling. The amount of emails I get every day from past customers with 12 year old frames (that's OLD for a mt bike) who just want to shoot the shit, catch up on whats new and talk about last weekend's ride is the sort of inspirational thing that gets me out of bed and into the office in the morning.
My basic marketing plan with Spooky (no particular order)
- Make the best bikes possible
- Make the bikes we want to ride, and the softgoods we want to wear.
- Make sure really approachable, really fast people race for us.
- Don't cultivate an image for the products, cultivate an image and feeling around the people involved.
- Create controversey; be divisive enough that people love you or hate you.
- Manipulate the print media. Free exposure is significantly better than exposure you pay for.
- Be extremely open and communicative with dealers, customers, and even people you piss-off.
- Support other bike co's that share common values and beliefs.
I think that every small custom builder and larger custom shop does these things now. Or at least all the good ones. There is still plenty of differentiation between them all.
It's an awesome time to be in the smaller, craftier end of the bike Industry, IMO.
From an internet marketing perspective, I think nice photos are really important. That's why I think Hampco is pretty smart hiring a really good photographer and only posting those shots on their site. While it's frustrating to not see continual updates of what they're producing, it's less frustrating than going to a builder's website and squinting at 2" by 2" photos.
I think this also has more to do with it than people want to admit. Especially the builders themselves. I know people who want a quality (insert frame material here) frame, and although one person may be best for that job, they might go on to the next option due to the branding. I know guys who haven't bought a Strong because they don't want the word Strong on the side of their bike. No disrespect to Steve or Andy at all, but when a friend of mine was considering which steel bike to consider he didn't include a Hampsten on the short list because of the decal of Andy smiling on the seattube. Say that is shallow or whatever, it is what it is and it influences purchases. One of the reasons I think the IF logo works so well is that the number of letters in each word is the same so their logo just works on the bikes.Quote:
Originally Posted by hampco
i've left the smilin' andy off of more than one frame and doubled up on them when requested. aint no big thang, it's just a sticker. but the deal's off if you don't want the down tube decal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris
Taste is such a challenging thing to measure as a component of product marketing.
As an example, Parlee has a peculiar approach for their high-end product, yet the distinct (complete with Smilin' Andy...) solid graphics on my Hampsten Z2 custom elicit approval all the time.
In fact, my contention is that the uniqueness of the Smilin' Andy makes the bike truly stand apart.
hope i didnt offend, wasnt dissing marketing, quite the contrary. but thanks for demonstrating my point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GSmith
Not to be argumentative, but the 4P's that my b-school mkting program taught were PRODUCT, Price, Promotion, Place. Without a product (which includes services as well as physical goods) the other P's would be moot. Plan(ning) is the activity of creating a mix of these 4Ps. If you assume that the product you currently make is the only product option in your marketing mix- you are already limiting your marketing options.Quote:
Originally Posted by GSmith
I've read Kotler, but I think Borden and McCarthy preceded him with using the 4P terminology.
Anyway... As an old mkting grad, I appreciate your defense of the role of mkting and use to bristle when people would blithely dismiss mkting as advertising.
- taz
It's been a long time since I cracked into any of that stuff, and I suppose it's all theory anyhow.Quote:
Originally Posted by taz
Practically speaking, I've run large businesses where I always found that marketing people wanted to be product people and product people always thought that they knew best how to market their creations. I found it best to get them to dance at the intersection rather than blur the two disciplines.
I believe strongly that if you create a product born out of a "marketing" concept, it is more likely than not to fail. History is full of examples. Conversely, if product folk are left to market things, they tend to get all geeked out on features and benefits that the consumer doesn't really care about, and miss the finer points of creating an emotional context for them.
An observation;Quote:
Originally Posted by GSmith
When I pick up Velonews or that ilk, most of the marketing in see from Trek, Specialized, etc is just that. 18% more, 22% less, etc..
For some reason, right now (or pre September?) most of the majors in our biz have been selling or attempting to sell to the Gadget crowd.
I don't get why... Unless that's all they have to say.
snip *.*
Sorry, just don't understand the code...Quote:
Originally Posted by crumpton
It's sad that they don't have more to say, and why their principal marketing strategy is to control distribution through concept stores.Quote:
Originally Posted by suspectdevice
Let's play a game. Name the brand, and in three words or less, what it stands for.
For example:
Coke = refreshment
Nike = competitive sport
Ralph Lauren = aristocracy, and so on...
Trek = ?
Specialized = ?
Giant = ?
diversion at (my) happy hour -Quote:
Originally Posted by GSmith
they're not making bikes; they're making money atmo.
harshmo!
Quote:
Originally Posted by GSmith
Trek = Armstrongian Domination
Specialized = Boonenian Skunkworks
Giant = Laminated in China
Trek = high-tech plasticQuote:
Originally Posted by GSmith
Specialized = high-tech plastic
Giant = high-tech plastic
FWIW, I wasn't trying to crap on any of the big bike brands, I'm just trying to make the point that good marketing over time should result in an almost instantaneous, positive emotive association when people see your name/brand/logo.
What I find fascinating is that so many folks think that all you have to do is make a great product. Like em or not, all of these companies make really good bikes. I've never ridden a Madone, or a TCR, or a Tarmac, but I'll dare to say it here that these are very good bikes, if all you want is a bike in the literal sense. What they lack, at least from my lens, is any sense of soul. No emotional context means it's just a thing... even if it's a really good thing.
As I was reflecting on this, I started to think of the people that I ride with that do own these rigs, and while risky to paint with a broad brush, for the most part, they ride for the ride, and all of the bike culture, history, etc., means very little to them. In almost all cases, they never talk about their bikes. In some cases they ride what they ride because of a relationship with their local shop, in which case the shop's "brand" has made the connection, but the bike is still just a tool or appliance, even though they take their riding as serious as anyone.
All this says to me is that there is huge, untapped potential for smaller builders to "inform" these people and help make a connection for them. That takes marketing.