-
Finding the best torch handle and tips to work with propane
I’ve been working with propane as an alternative fuel to acetylene ever since we started to make bicycle frames in Ukraine as a charity project over 10 years ago. It was just much easier to get as a fuel. Ever since I have been looking for the best combination of equipment when using propane. For many of my frame building class students propane is a better option as well. It is more readily available at longer business hours with fewer zoning restrictions than acetylene. It is also much cheaper to use with less start up costs. In addition it is somewhat safer. While it is possible to use with acetylene tips, it works better with elbow/mixers and tips designed specifically for propane. I have covered the pros and cons of using either fuel in the subject thread acetylene vs propane. Lets do a review of our options using smaller airline torch handles that are available in the US.
Smith used to make propane specific mixer/elbow/tips (an all in one unit) for their AW1A torch handle. They were the AW4XX series (for example an AW407). These worked really well and produced a sharp point. However they stopped making them years ago. What they do make now is an AT-61 mixer/elbow (designed to work specifically with propane) with a treaded end that allows different tips of various diameters to be attached. The problem with this arraignment is that their LT and NE series of tips made to screw onto their AT-61 does not produce an ideal flame pattern. It is kind of blunt and rounded and can become more easily detached because the orifice is not countersunk.
Victor (and compatibles like Gentec and Uniweld) makes a propane specific combination for their J-28 torch handle. They work better than what Smith makes for propane but it isn’t perfect either. The UN-J mixer/elbow and their TEN series of tips (for example the TEN-3) are designed specifically for propane. There is 2 issues with this set up. 1st, Victor stopped making the TEN-1 and smaller tips. Gentec still makes them at a lower quality. Some people including myself like these smaller tips for fillet brazing. 2nd, the TEN-3 and larger tips don’t have as sharp a flame pattern as an equally sized Smith AW407. It works okay (TEN-3 is a good size for doing lugs) but that flame is also a bit more blunt and rounded. I like working with the best possible equipment.
The Meco Midget (now made for Victor) is a great little light torch handle but its shape is not loved by the majority (although some really like it). It has a rectangle instead of a round handle. This means I have to move my wrist instead of my rotating my fingers to flick a flame off of a joint. TM Technologies now makes tips for the Meco Midget that produce a way more awesome flame using propane than either the Smith or Victor options. What is different about these tips is that the have small orifices around the main orifice. They call this “a ring of fire”. The primary flame tip is sharp and less likely to become detached or blow out. If one doesn’t mind the shape of the torch handle this is the best option. But I and many others do not like its shape as well as a round one.
A new option may become available soon. Paige Tools makes tips specifically for the jewelry market. Their propane tips are similar to TM’s tips with a bit of shape variation in the secondary holes. They are also designed to fit the Meco Midget handle. In addition they make adaptors for these tips to fit the Smith Little Torch and Hoke torches. In conversations with them they are considering making adaptors so their tips can also fit onto the Smith AT-61 and the Victor UN-J. They would like to expand their market base. For me a round handle with a multi-flame tip (with a longer center flame not to be confused with a rosebud with equal sized flames) would be the best of all options. I modified their adaptor on my lathe so it will work with my AW1A. I was really impressed with this combination of using a Paige tip with the AT-61. If anyone else might want to use their tips with either a Smith or Victor/Gentec/Uniweld 71 torch handles, contact Paige tools so our chances of them making these new adaptors (to fit both the Smith 1/4” - 32 threads and Victor’s 5/16” - 27) can be increased. You can find their email and phone number on their website. They have a range of 5 tip sizes as well as 2 rosebuds. If they were to make these adaptors they would also work, of course, with TM Technologies propane tips (since they both have Identical 1/4” - 28 threads).
Doug Fattic
Niles, Michigan
-
Re: Finding the best torch handle and tips to work with propane
No idea what thread these have, probably not compatable with US kit but multi-flame style tips are available in the UK: Multi-Jet Oxy Propane Heating Nozzles.
William Chitham.
-
Re: Finding the best torch handle and tips to work with propane
Quote:
Originally Posted by
William Chitham
William those tips look exactly like the ones provided by TM Technologies. I'm guessing just the threading for attachment is different. The multi-port tips made by Paige have slits instead as the secondary holes but the flame pattern is similar.
It is obvious to me that multi-port tips for propane is the wave of the future as more people become aware of their advantages. They just work in a superior way to the old single hole tips when using propane. I don't think the old American welding supply manufacturers have given any thought to making improvements once they were bought out by bigger companies. The Welder's Warehouse company William identified as a source of multi-port propane tips in the UK also provides information in their 'knowledge" section on why propane is gaining popularity over acetylene.
-
Re: Finding the best torch handle and tips to work with propane
re: multi-flame style tips are available in the UK
a report from someone (Stephen Hilton) who has tried them
Quote:
...for fillet brazing I found they were of no use, giving out too wide a heating zone causing the braze line to spread out too quickly...
see:
Oxy-Propane Brazing – UPDATE 2 | Novice Framebuilder
-
Re: Finding the best torch handle and tips to work with propane
I completely disagree with Stephen Hilton's assessment that using a multi-tiped propane flame does not work for fillet brazing. To make sure of this, I just did a nearly perfect practice fillet braze using the new Paige tip size 3 and finished it with the Meco #2. Both of them are multi-port tips. Because the Paige and Meco tips use their own sizing references these tips are actually about the same size. Of course I have been building frames for over 40 years and know how to make adjustments in my flame control. His problem may have been caused by choosing too large a tip or inexperience on knowing how to control the temperature of the brass flowing into the joint because he is used to something else.
The one area where I feel acetylene is clearly superior is when doing fillet brazing. It produces a hotter fine point which makes controlling fillet brazing easier to do. However I have no trouble using propane for fillet brazing (one could not tell the difference in the end result). In fact the small propane multi-tips work better for brass fillet brazing than a small single hole tip because they are less likely to blow out when they are close to the joint and the blow back from the gas flow puts out the flame.
-
Re: Finding the best torch handle and tips to work with propane
Thanks Doug!
There is always a possibility that it is not Stephen, but the difference in tips design...?
Your tests and recommendation makes it easier to choose whether to try Paige or the ones from Welders Warehouse?
Just waiting for Paige to advise posting to UK.
-
Re: Finding the best torch handle and tips to work with propane
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bambuko
Thanks Doug!
There is always a possibility that it is not Stephen, but the difference in tips design...?
Your tests and recommendation makes it easier to choose whether to try Paige or the ones from Welders Warehouse?
Just waiting for Paige to advise posting to UK.
It is possible that the multi-orifice tips sold by Welding Warehouse are different then its American cousins and that is why he had trouble fillet brazing with it. However my bet is that he used too big of a tip. The reason I think so is that it is harder for me to have perfect control with larger tips when I haven't been fillet brazing for awhile. When I do it more often, I like to increase the tip size. Also many of my frame building class students have taken some other class before I teach them and even those have a bit of a lag time in recognizing what to do with the result that their fillet expands more then they would prefer. A smaller tip minimizes brass flow while they are pondering how to move their hands. I am also guessing he didn't experiment with tip sizes before making his judgment. In any case I just wanted to let people know that smaller multi-orifice tips work fine for fillet brazing.
-
Re: Finding the best torch handle and tips to work with propane
I was going to order M-2 and M-3 tips to try, but Richard tells me that I'd probably be better off with bigger ones, so I am getting M-4 and M-5.
What was the size you have used in your tests Doug, please?
BTW I have also ordered two tips from Welders Warehouse to compare and whilst I am not really qualified to comment (self taught amateur with plenty of bad habits and far too little practice) I will report how I got on with them.
-
Re: Finding the best torch handle and tips to work with propane
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bambuko
I was going to order M-2 and M-3 tips to try, but Richard tells me that I'd probably be better off with bigger ones, so I am getting M-4 and M-5. What was the size you have used in your tests Doug, please?
Chris, the only tip I have right now from Paige is their M-3 (I also ordered the M-4 and M-5 for testing). The main orifice on that tip is almost the same size as a Meco OX-2. However the mini holes surrounding the main hole of the 2 tips are different. The M-3 has 6 fine slots creating 6 little flattened flames while the OX-2 has a whole bunch of tiny holes so each hole produces a smaller flame but more of them. They almost look like a complete circle of flame around the much longer center flame. I only did a small amount of testing them together (one fillet joint) but they seemed to put out about the same amount of heat. This is the size I like to use for fillet brazing but I could also go up a size if I had to. That size would also work well for putting on braze-ons but I prefer bigger sizes for most other frame brazing operations.
Tip size preferences varies among builders. More experienced builders commonly prefer bigger flames to get the job done more quickly with less heat affected zone. However it usually works better for those on the shorter end of the learning curve to use smaller tips so they have more time to figure out what is going and react before they make a hot mess. I am under the impression that for most frame brazing situations the Paige M-4 and M-5 would be the right choice. I typically use the Meco OX-3 and OX-4 when I am using the Midget torch.
-
Re: Finding the best torch handle and tips to work with propane
Thank you Doug!
Welders Warehouse tips have arrived today and the thread on them is neither UNF or BSP or BSF, but M6 x 0.75 (Metric Fine).
Welders Warehouse (after I called them) told me that they also have necks/adapters to suit lightweight torch mixers, but do not sell them on internet because of the problems with people trying to use them on incompatible (wrong thread) parts...
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Ji...A=w772-h625-no
They also sell the whole package of lightweight torch.
It seems a good value if you haven't got the torch, but I have one, so will be turning adapters to suit.
I will probably spend more time fuffing around with making these than it is worth, so if you have more money than time - just buy the whole package:
The Welders Warehouse - Lightweight Heating and Brazing Torch for Oxygen + Propane
It's only £69 (and it comes with three tips included).
I am still waiting for Paige to let me know the shipping costs before I can place an order.
These of course are UNF, so I will be making another set of adapters...
-
Re: Finding the best torch handle and tips to work with propane
Chris, the tip in your picture looks a bit different than the Meco tips. Your secondary holes are fewer and a little bigger and farther away from the center hole. Of course the Paige tips have 6 very thin slits instead of holes. Now I am super curious if there is any significant performance difference. Richard at Paige certainly thinks there is. Obviously people have figured out that a propane tip works better with a small circle of flame around the center flame.
The question I have from America is, does Welders Warehouse make adaptors for our American threads? I've encouraged Paige to make adaptors and they sounded positive but it isn't a done deal yet.
I want to emphasize again the advantage of a multi-port tip for fillet brazing when using propane. Just so the general public understands, propane is a bit cooler flame than acetylene. I compensate by using a bigger tip/flame. For example if I was using a Victor #0 with acetylene I would use a Victor #2 (actually a TEN-2) with propane. When doing fillet brazing with propane I like a small Victor TEN-1 tip (which Victor no longer makes so I have to substitute a lower quality Gentec). The problem is that if I get the flame close to the joint at close to a 90º angle the gas pressure bouncing back blows out the flame. With a similar size multi-port tip it just doesn't do that. It is a much more stable flame.
-
Re: Finding the best torch handle and tips to work with propane
Modified neck next to standard swaged tip:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/eU...A=w900-h634-no
and as fitted to my lightweight torch:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/RH...Q=w900-h667-no
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Doug Fattic
Chris, the tip in your picture looks a bit different than the Meco tips. Your secondary holes are fewer and a little bigger and farther away from the center hole...
Yes, I have noticed this difference as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Doug Fattic
...Now I am super curious if there is any significant performance difference...
You are not the only one.
So far the tips from UK are a lot better than standard swaged tips, at least as far as lighting up and adjusting the flame is concerned.
They just work, whereas standard tips need nursing until you can use them, plus if you work too close pressure can blow the flame off.
These new tips seem much more stable
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Doug Fattic
...The question I have from America is, does Welders Warehouse make adaptors for our American threads? ...
Well... the tips seem to be offered as a replacements to their line of oxy propane torches, rather than standalone product for use with other torches.
When I asked them what was the thread, they didn't know and said they would have to email the factory to find out (never mind I have sorted it out myself).
They are supposed to call me back when they get reply "from the factory", I will ask them about other threads, but I wouldn't hold my breath...
-
Re: Finding the best torch handle and tips to work with propane
Thanks Chris for posting this information about a UK source for a multi-port tip for propane. I'll be curious if some supplier over there eventually comes out with lighter hoses for the UK market too. I know TM technologies ships their light hoses to the UK but they have the problem of adapting American A fittings to UK fittings. Light hoses benefits beginners more than the experienced. While I can use heavy rubber hoses just fine I like light hoses much better.
-
Re: Finding the best torch handle and tips to work with propane
Do all the multi port tips share the same oxygen pressure/volume requirement as the Meco that limits the use of some O2 concentrators?
Russ Kanz
-
Re: Finding the best torch handle and tips to work with propane
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rkanz
Do all the multi port tips share the same oxygen pressure/volume requirement as the Meco that limits the use of some O2 concentrators? Russ Kanz
Russ, I don't know yet if the Paige tips bigger than their M-3 uses more or less oxygen than the Meco tips. I ordered bigger ones and they will arrive next week. Just by looking at the tiny slits in the Paige tips I would guess less. What I do know is that My DeVilbiss concentrator can run a Meco OX-3 but not the bigger Ox-4 or 5 at full power.
-
Re: Finding the best torch handle and tips to work with propane
Another source? for multi-jet/multi-flame brazing nozzles:
torchtips
-
Re: Finding the best torch handle and tips to work with propane
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Doug Fattic
... I'll be curious if some supplier over there eventually comes out with lighter hoses for the UK market too...
Well... I have never given up and I think I might be able to solve the problem.
There are oxygen and propane hoses, produced (in Europe) to EN 1327, with ID of 3.2mm.
They are used in vast quantities with Oxy-turbo setup (mickey mouse things using disposable bottles).
I am not suggesting that Oxy-turbo is any good for our purposes, but there is nothing wrong with these hoses.
oxygen hose
propane hose
They are actually manufactured just across the border from Ukraine, so it might be useful to you as well?
Here in UK WeldingDirect is making hose sets using this stuff, exactly to your requirements:
Micro Hoses Set
(although at the moment they appear to be out of stock)
-
Re: Finding the best torch handle and tips to work with propane
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rkanz
Do all the multi port tips share the same oxygen pressure/volume requirement as the Meco that limits the use of some O2 concentrators? Russ Kanz
After getting Paige’s bigger tips (M-4 and M-5), I did a little comparison with the OX series of tips sold by TM Technologies. Just as a refresher both both of these companies make their tips to fit the Meco Midget torch. I modified an adaptor Paige makes (the MMH so their tips will fit Hoke torch handles) to fit my Smith AW1A torch handle with a AT-61 mixer/elbow designed to work with propane and similar fuels like natural gas. The shape of the secondary flames around the center flame are quite different between the 2 makers. The 6 very thin slits on the Paige tips produce longer flattish flames then the many round short stubby flames surrounding the Meco OX tips.
This test was to check and see if my oxygen concentrators have enough oomph to run the bigger multi-port tips. The biggest Paige tip (the M-5) has a center orifice of around 042”. That is roughly equal to the middle size of the Meco OX-3. The OX-4 measured about .053” and the OX-5 approximately .063” (I say approximately because I measured somewhat casually as I was only wanting to get a rough estimate of their sizes). I have 2 different manufacturers of oxygen concentrators, a Devilbiss and an Invacare. The Devilbiss has a higher oxygen output and the Invacare runs quieter. For this experiment I hooked up my torch to the Invacare.
My Invacare Oxygen concentrator could easily power all the Paige tips no matter how open I adjusted the flame. It even put out enough oxygen for their smaller MA-1 rosebud tip at normal pressures. It appeared to me those tips used less oxygen for a similar sized hole than the tips sold by TM Technologies (the M-5 compared to the OX-3). My concentrator could also run the OX-4 and OX-5 tips at normal settings but could not produce enough oxygen when the propane was turned way up. I don’t think there are many circumstances in making a frame in which it is necessary to turn the flame up that large.
What I don’t know yet is how many more BTUs are produced in a multi-port tip compared to a single tip. In other words it is pointless to compare center hole diameters as a way of choosing what tip to use. Obviously the multi-port tips are putting out more heat for the same size single center hole.
In conclusion I found that my 5 lpm concentrators could put out enough oxygen to make a frame with any of the multi-port tips. However that doesn’t mean they put out enough to keep a pro happy when they wish to use a big flame to get in and out fast.
-
Re: Finding the best torch handle and tips to work with propane
Thanks for sharing the tip test. Encouraging to know these tips will work with a concentrator. I emailed Piage letting them know it would be nice to have tips for my J28. They replied quickly and indicated they are working on tips to fit the J28.
Russ Kanz
-
1 Attachment(s)
Re: Finding the best torch handle and tips to work with propane
Well I splashed out on a set of tips and a neck from Welder's Warehouse and needless to say, it doesn't fit my Wescol lightweight handle so I'm planning to do a cut and shut job with one of my existing tips. The question is, which one: the UK type or the Uniweld? I only have the one tip for the Uniweld so modding that would make it a lot more useful (once I sort out some decent hoses for it) but the fact that they come as a unit for this torch suggests that the mixer may be specifically tailored to the tip - this one is a #17-3 and the mixer holes look a bit small compared to those in the multijet mixer; the mixer on my old UK style torch seems to have more & bigger holes than either of the others. Is it possible/likely that the Uniweld mixer will "choke" the multijet tips, especially the larger sizes?
Attachment 96994
William Chitham.
-
Re: Finding the best torch handle and tips to work with propane
Quote:
Originally Posted by
William Chitham
...needless to say, it doesn't fit my Wescol lightweight handle...
William Chitham.
When I called them about the size of the thread on the tips they told me, that's why they do not show this mixer/neck as available on their webpage.
It is only a spare part to fit their torch (and nothing else on UK market).
I think, you would have been better off buying the torch package complete with tips?? rather than trying to mix and match...
Uniweld swaged tips (or elbows as they call them in their catalogue) appear to be screwed on into the mixer in the same fashion as lightweight torch that you and I are familiar with.
The thread is supposedly 1/4" 27TPI
-
Re: Finding the best torch handle and tips to work with propane
Quote:
Originally Posted by
William Chitham
... I only have the one tip for the Uniweld so modding that would make it a lot more useful ...
William Chitham.
I also have just one elbow/mixer coming for my Uniweld torch and my plan is exactly the same as yours (i.e. modify the elbow front to accept various Paige tips)
Here, is what I was talking about re Uniweld mixers and elbows:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/1A...w=w898-h800-no
-
Re: Finding the best torch handle and tips to work with propane
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bambuko
...I think, you would have been better off buying the torch package complete with tips?? rather than trying to mix and match...
Uniweld swaged tips (or elbows as they call them in their catalogue) appear to be screwed on into the mixer in the same fashion as lightweight torch that you and I are familiar with.
The thread is supposedly 1/4" 27TPI
In truth I wasn't that hopeful that it would fit and I'm keen to try the lightweight torch experience; I've had the Uniweld for ages but never got around to sorting out decent hoses for it. I don't have the facilities to make an adaptor like yours so my plan is to cut the elbows off half way up and silver the parts together with a brass sleeve. That catalogue page is helpful, looks like a 17-4 would be ideal but I think the 17-3 that I have will probably flow enough gas for me. Seems that the Uniweld elbows and mixers can be bought as fixed assemblies or screw together parts - mine definitely doesn't want to unscrew. What size have you ordered?
William Chitham.
-
Re: Finding the best torch handle and tips to work with propane
Yes, I ended up with 17-3
Time will tell ...
-
Re: Finding the best torch handle and tips to work with propane
Thanks, Doug. I've forwarded an email to Paige encouraging a Uniweld version. Hopefully it will become a reality, I'd be in for a full set.
-
Re: Finding the best torch handle and tips to work with propane
Just in case someone doesn’t know this, the Uniweld threads on their 71 handle are the same as on a Victor J-28 handle. Their elbow/mixers and tips are interchangeable. On my Uniweld 71 handle I screw-on a Victor UN-J mixer elbow (designed specifically for propane and other similar fuels). The threading for the tips that go onto the end of the UN-J is 5/16” - 28 tpi. The Victor tips I use on the UN-J are the TEN series also designed specifically for propane.
The UN-J mixer/elbow is different than the other Victor mixer/elbows (for acetylene) because it has 6 holes for oxygen coming out of the mixer instead of the 4 oxygen holes for acetylene ones. The Uniweld all-in-one mixer/elbow/tips (that they say works for all fuels including both acetylene and propane) have only 2 oxygen holes. All these holes are about the same size in each of the mixers. This would lead me to believe that the Uniweld mixers would preform the poorest with propane.
In my conversation with Paige tools I encouraged them to make adaptors so their tips could be used with either Smith or Victor (and by extension the Uniweld 71) torch handles. The easiest way to do this is to make an adaptor connecting the male 5/16” - 28 threads on the end of the UN-J to the female 1/4” - 32 threads in the back of Paige (and Meco) tips. They are considering making tips with Victor threads so they can screw directly into the UN-J elbow without the need of an adaptor to do so. They seem inclined to make adaptors 1st so their tips will work with Victor and compatibles as well as the Smith 1/4” - 32 threads. This is why I’m encouraging potential buyers to encourage them so this option can become a reality. My experiment with a Smith AW1A and Paige tips showed me that the combination of a round torch handle with a multi-port tip is my favorite when using propane.
-
Re: Finding the best torch handle and tips to work with propane
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Doug Fattic
...The threading for the tips that go onto the end of the UN-J is 5/16” - 28 tpi...
I haven't got one to hand, to check, but all the literature I have quotes 5/16" - 27 tpi.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/iG...Q=w546-h459-no
-
Re: Finding the best torch handle and tips to work with propane
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bambuko
I haven't got one to hand, to check, but all the literature I have quotes 5/16" - 27 tpi.
You are right. Thanks for the correction! I measured the threads on the end of my UN-J with a thread gage and indeed it has 27 tpi.
One other suggestion on getting brazing equipment is to buy an acetylene regulator rather than one rated for propane. The reason is that their 0 to 15 psi pressure range has finer control than propane's much higher top end pressure. I usually adjust my propane pressure around 3 psi + or -. The lower pressure helps keep the flame from blowing out.
One of my friends called Smith and they said both kinds of their regulators are made the same except for their pressure range. What they did warn about is not putting a used one on a propane tank after it has been on an acetylene tank because it still carries its contaminants inside. Apparently - according to her - they can't be cleaned out. Of course I am sure their lawyers help draft that recommendation so their isn't even the slightest chance for some failure caused by this switch.
-
Re: Finding the best torch handle and tips to work with propane
These nozzles are brilliant in my opinion. I tried a number of Oxy Propane systems before I settled on this one. You may do well to get their handle as well The Welders Warehouse - Lightweight Heating and Brazing Torch for Oxygen + Propane
I use no.3 and no.5 nozzles for most of my frame building. I have built 4 frames using less than one 3.9kg cylinder of Propane since I started using these. This works out at less than £4 per frame in the UK for Propane (plus rather more for the Oxygen). Because of the convenience and ease of obtaining Propane and the cost I can't imagine that I will ever go back to Oxy-acetylene.
Paul Jacobs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
William Chitham
-
Re: Finding the best torch handle and tips to work with propane
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Doug Fattic
...The easiest way to do this is to make an adaptor connecting the male 5/16” - 27 threads on the end of the UN-J to the female 1/4” - 32 threads in the back of Paige (and Meco) tips...
One problem with this idea is that Type17-000 to Type 17-4 use 1/4" - 27tpi
It is only Type 17-5 to Type 17-7 that use 5/16" - 27 tpi
So the proposed adapter wouldn't cater for majority of tips?
The other problem (it seems) is the fact that combined mixer/tips appear to be more popular and easier to get than separate bits.
I ended up with the one that cannot be taken apart (simply because I didn't know any better).
It is no problem for me because I can do my adapters easily, but it will be for those with no lathe and screwcutting...
-
Re: Finding the best torch handle and tips to work with propane
I am talking about the threads on the tip end of the elbow and not the end that goes into the mixer. The UN-J is a mixer/elbow made for propane (because it has 6 oxygen supply holes in the mixer). It is necessary to only buy one of them and then screw on the what size tip works best for the application. The threads on the end of the UN-J are 5/16" - 27. This will allow the TEN or Paige or Meco multi-port series of tips to be screwed onto the end of the UN-J.
-
Re: Finding the best torch handle and tips to work with propane
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Doug Fattic
I am talking about the threads on the tip end of the elbow...
Understand (now).
My confusion came from the fact that "elbow to mixer" thread as described in Uniweld catalogue:
Type17-000 to Type 17-4 use 1/4" - 27tpi for elbow to mixer
Type 17-5 to Type 17-7 use 5/16" - 27 tpi for elbow to mixer
see: post #22
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Doug Fattic
...The UN-J is a mixer/elbow made for propane (because it has 6 oxygen supply holes in the mixer)...
I guess that makes sense if you think that oxy/propane uses 4 times as much oxygen as propane, compare to oxy/acetylene being more like 1 to 1?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Doug Fattic
...It is necessary to only buy one of them...
Too late for me :sad2: I already wasted my money buying the wrong one - I suppose that the price of my ignorance...
Anyway, I have the means to recover, although I will not have 6 holes?
I'll see if I can add more holes myself (or enlarge the ones available?)
-
Re: Finding the best torch handle and tips to work with propane
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bambuko
Anyway, I have the means to recover, although I will not have 6 holes? I'll see if I can add more holes myself (or enlarge the ones available?)
I don't think the number of holes is critical. I've used propane successfully with all kinds of acetylene only mixer tips. They just don't work as well as a UN-J with propane specific tips. I think this may be true because we use smaller tips at lower pressures.
I wonder if you can use a die to put a 1/4" - 32 threads on the end of one of those Uniweld tips? That way you can screw the multi-port tips directly to the elbow. Of course that is an unusual size that would cost almost as much money as a UN-J. Unless of course you cut off the end near the bend and chucked into a lathe to cut the threads (then braze it back on again).
-
Re: Finding the best torch handle and tips to work with propane
When you say "... They just don't work as well as a UN-J with propane specific tips..." what do you mean?
I have only ever worked with oxy/acetylene gear so I simply do not know what I am missing?
As for adapting Uniweld elbow to Paige tips, my plan is exactly the same as I have shown earlier on in this thread with Welders Warehouse tips.
Turn brass adapter with correct thread (in this case 1/4"-32) and silver solder it to the shortened front end of (no longer) swaged tip.
Works fine so far - unless I am missing something or doing something stupid (wouldn't be the first time :cheesy:) - in which case shout please.
-
Re: Finding the best torch handle and tips to work with propane
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bambuko
When you say "... They just don't work as well as a UN-J with propane specific tips..." what do you mean?
I have only ever worked with oxy/acetylene gear so I simply do not know what I am missing?
While almost all tips work with propane, the problem with using an acetylene tip is that it is hard to light because the flame easily detaches and the bounce back from the flow of gas blows out the flame when it is close to the joint it is brazing. This might be because to get enough oxygen to the flame through fewer holes in the mixer, it is necessary to turn up the pressure. A propane specific tip like a TEN-3 with a recessed end means the flame is less likely to become detached when lighting but also blows out fairly easily if the flame gets too close to the work. A multi-port propane specific tip lights more easily and rarely blows out when the flame is close to the joint it is brazing. The main flame (sounding by tiny flames) is thin and sharp making it more precise to use. This is especially helpful when fillet brazing.
-
Re: Finding the best torch handle and tips to work with propane
Thanks for that Doug!
Good summary of everything about tips and their use with oxy/propane.
It all makes sense, the only thing that remains mystery (to me at least) are the mixers and their design (hence my interest in your comments that "...UN-J mixer/elbow is different than the other Victor mixer/elbows (for acetylene) because it has 6 holes for oxygen coming out of the mixer instead of the 4 oxygen holes for acetylene ones...").
So is "propane" mixer (6 oxygen holes?) important or doesn't it matter? and only tips and their design matter?
btw I am still waiting for my Uniweld torch and Paige tips - both should arrive next week.
-
Re: Finding the best torch handle and tips to work with propane
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bambuko
So is "propane" mixer (6 oxygen holes?) important or doesn't it matter? and only tips and their design matter?
I don't know exactly but my guess is that by having more holes for the oxygen to flow through the mixer means the oxygen pressure does not need to be turned up as high (so it is less likely to detach or blow out the flame) to get the right ratio to make propane work the most efficiently. I'm also going to assume the engineers knew what they are doing when they designed the propane specific mixer with more holes for oxygen.
My search is not just for what works but what works the best and most efficiently. In Ukraine I began making frames with this awful Russian big and heavy torch handle. It worked fine but I just like working with better equipment. In my research I went through a number of different combinations. I found using light hoses, a small round torch handle and a multi-port tip as the best combination for propane. YMMV. The final missing link for that to happen here in the States is an adaptor to connect Paige (or Meco) tips to either a Victor UN-J or Smith AT-61 mixer/elbow. I could get this combination by modifying a Paige MMH adaptor to fit a Smith AT-61 mixer/elbow on my lathe. However it would be nice for others to be able to have this combination even if they don't have the equipment to make modifications themselves.
-
Re: Finding the best torch handle and tips to work with propane
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bambuko
... Welders Warehouse tips have arrived today and the thread on them is neither UNF or BSP or BSF, but M6 x 0.75 (Metric Fine)...
correction
these threads are actually 1/4"-32 tpi (UNF)
Apologies for causing confusion.
-
3 Attachment(s)
Re: Finding the best torch handle and tips to work with propane
My Frankentorch lives! I spent yesterday afternoon grafting the top end of a Welder's Warehouse neck to the mixer end of a Uniweld 17-3 and happily ended up with something that works (rather than a small pile of scrap which seemed like a distinct possibility at one stage). I haven't used it in anger yet but it lights up easily and seems to flow enough gas for the three tips I bought, 1, 3 & 5.
Attachment 97330
Attachment 97331
Attachment 97332
-
Re: Finding the best torch handle and tips to work with propane
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bambuko
correction, these threads are actually 1/4"-32 tpi (UNF)
That means that Welder's Warehouse tips will screw directly onto a Smith AT61. Just as a refresher, the AT61 mixer/elbow is designed specifically for propane (and other alternate fuels) because it has more and bigger oxygen supply holes going towards the tip. This is particularly helpful for multi-port tips that gobble up more oxygen anyway.
I made my Smith AW1A torch handle work with either Meco or Paige tips by modifying a Paige MMH adaptor. I cut off the male threads that go to a Hoke torch and bored it out with an end mill on my lathe and tapped it with a 1/4" - 32 bottoming tap. This adaptor now screwed onto my AT61 (which has 1/4" - 32 threads for tips)) and the Meco or Paige tips screwed onto the adaptor.
So now it is possible for someone to buy an American torch handle (the Smith AW1A) and a propane specific mixer/elbow (the AT61) and get multi-port tips (that screw directly onto the AT61) that work better for propane than single orifice tips without having to cobble something together to make the combination work. Good news!