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Brazing Tab Type Dropouts
In a strictly amateur capacity I'm inching towards a first frame and am currently practicing brazing tabbed type front dropouts. I assumed when I started that the space between tab and tube should be entirely filled but I'm finding it very difficult to fill very far up and having cut up a couple of old factory made fork ends to find very little filler in them at all I'm wondering if I'm trying too hard. Photo shows an early attempt, I've done another half a dozen since with varying success. Any advice on how to tackle this joint would welcome.
Thanks,
William.
Attachment 83984
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Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts
When I used to use tabbed dropouts, at last 12" of brass rod would be fed into each joint (that's inside...). I never used gravity; the parts were always on their side, and filler metal was fed in, and heat would draw it in left/right or right/left. There's no magic bullet. Use a big flame and according to my opinion a hot flame.
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Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
e-RICHIE
There's no magic bullet. Use a big flame and according to my opinion a hot flame.
Not too much finesse then, eg trying to "plug" it in deep then backfill as it were, just get plenty in?
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Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts
The finesse isn't so much in getting it in there, as not getting it everywhere you don't want it on the outside.*
*Better to have to file some away than starve the joint.
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Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
William Chitham
Not too much finesse then, eg trying to "plug" it in deep then backfill as it were, just get plenty in?
It's 100% finesse atmo. Channel Hendrix lighting his guitar on fire, and willing the flames in the direction he wants. Then, do it with a torch and flowing brass.
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Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts
Thanks, I'll give it a go. Move over Rover....
W.
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2 Attachment(s)
Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts
Tadaaa - loadsa brass:Attachment 84036
But a bit cooked:Attachment 84037
It takes some time to get all the filler in and I'm finding it tricky to keep the heat under control but I heard practice makes perfect...
Thanks for the help.
William.
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Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts
It isn't too often that we have the opportunity to cut apart a frame built by one of the masters, but I had just that chance.
These pictures are from a Ron Cooper - 60th Anniversary Edition frame, I think from 2006. My friend who gave it to me was riding and got hit by a car, crushing the rear end. The seat stays were bend above the brake bridge, the wheel was shattered... squeezing together the dropouts, and the chain stays were bent shortly behind the chain stay bridge. The accident occurred in 2013, and when it took the computer apart it read some 12,000 miles. I'm not sure if they were all on this frame, but my point is that this frame was ridden a lot!!! He also has a Cooper from the 70's which he also rides, but now mainly as his indoor winter bike. Point being, his Coopers have held up.
After the accident, not a single joint failed, nor did they show any signs of stress (that I could see anyway). The pics below show the amount of filler material in a typical Columbus style tab style dropout, and the amount of filler material in the break bridge which had no reinforcing diamonds.
Attachment 85846Attachment 85847Attachment 85848Attachment 85849Attachment 85850Attachment 85851
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Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts
Thanks Michael, interesting photos.
William.
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Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
William Chitham
Tadaaa - loadsa brass:
Attachment 84036
But a bit cooked:
Attachment 84037
It takes some time to get all the filler in and I'm finding it tricky to keep the heat under control but I heard practice makes perfect...
Thanks for the help.
William.
William,
Exactly how did you position the workpiece to accomplish that? With the stay horizontal and the dropout flat? If so, did you flip it over to do the other side.
Thanks
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Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts
heh, you got enough brass in there all right. If you have some idea of how much you fed in on the over-filled side, you can back off by that much now.
I hold the stay vertically because that's the way I've always done it, and it allows access to the whole dropout at once. I never really thought about gravity, heat is what moves filler around for the most part.
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Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts
I did try to put too much in on this one, if you never go too far to you never know how far you could have gone. I did do this with the "tab" horizontal, flipped over halfway through. It seemed the natural way to do it but I'll try one vertical next time.
William.
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Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts
I mostly do them vertically - get everything decently hot and it'll suck in beautifully. Get a reasonable amount in there but don't obsess about getting loads in - as the old frame up there shows, you don't really need an awful lot.
My rough rule-of-thumb for how much brass to use anywhere is that brass is about 1/3 the strength of steel, so use 3x as much of it. If the steel tube is 1.5mm thick, get a 5mm thickness of brass in there etc.
I've never seen a dropout fail because of lack of brass - they always fail at the thinnest point before they enter the tube.
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Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts
Do them horizontally atmo. If nothing else, the flow of heat (rather than gravity) will draw the material. And more importantly, the HAZ will spread outward at a much slower rate of speed than if the object was held vertically. That's especially true on main tube joining as well.
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Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts
I have a collection of mild steel nail sizes in boxes in the drawers under my bench
I clean, cut , file and fit them to reduce the cavity to fill
I feel like a failure when pin holes appear, and I never expect the painter to cover my short comings with technique
so the steel fillers make a big difference to the fill
and it only takes 5 mins.
I used to do it horizontal but now do it vertical, more fun for me
That is my take.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/698/21...73d73919_b.jpg
https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5720/2...03631f7c_b.jpg
https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5712/2...f7fbfbe5_b.jpg
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Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts
I find it both funny and a bit disturbing but the more I braze the dropouts the more I struggle with each next one of them, or so it seems.
I think I'm starting to have problems when the joint gets full of brass and it becomes hard for me to control the heat, since the brass inside easily transmits heat all over the place.
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Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
waterlaz
I find it both funny and a bit disturbing but the more I braze the dropouts the more I struggle with each next one of them, or so it seems.
I think I'm starting to have problems when the joint gets full of brass and it becomes hard for me to control the heat, since the brass inside easily transmits heat all over the place.
It's the "more you know the more you know you don't know" thing. As you progress up the learning curve you have more and more to keep track of and it can be overwhelming. But in time you get more comfy with bits and aspects of the process, start to relax and work from muscle memory. Your brazing get's less anxiety filled, you see a step ahead and results get better/more consistent.
Keep practicing. Andy.
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Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts
I have a silly question after reading this thread. I've only done socketed dropouts up to this point. Do you angle the slot when you cut it or do you bend the dropout after brazing?
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Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts
I used to angle the slot but now I prefer to bend the dropout.
https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5608/1...977a30d1_b.jpg
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Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts
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Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Clockwork
I used to angle the slot but now I prefer to bend the dropout.
I tried bending the Columbus style front dropouts from Nova in a vice. Just a really little, very slight bend while clamped, and I felt a fracture. Very uncertain about what I felt, there was no way I was going to use it, so out of curiosity I went to bend it back and it quickly broke in two.
I ordered a new set of dropouts and angled the slots instead.
Perhaps it is a cast vs. forged thing... these were cast.
Attachment 86233
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Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Michael Gordon
I tried bending the Columbus style front dropouts from Nova in a vice. Just a really little, very slight bend while clamped, and I felt a fracture. Very uncertain about what I felt, there was no way I was going to use it, so out of curiosity I went to bend it back and it quickly broke in two.
I ordered a new set of dropouts and angled the slots instead.
Perhaps it is a cast vs. forged thing... these were cast.
Attachment 86233
I'm a newbie, but I've taken a few materials classes and I would guess that you're correct in thinking it was the casting vs. forging issue.
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Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts
I can't imagine any sugnificant loss of strength to a steel dropout from bending it some 5-6 degrees or so.
Anyway, I don't know if what I'm doing is right, but I braze the dropouts first and then bend them.
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Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts
I'd do that prep first. That's a lot of stress on a new joint.
There are a bunch of different ways to skin this cat- I'm generally in the "slot-to-fit" camp.
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Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts
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Originally Posted by
Eric Estlund
I'd do that prep first. That's a lot of stress on a new joint.
The joint is a couple of times thicker than the dropout, I'm not sure there is any stress to the joint at all. Besides, doesn't brass only get stronger with abuse? =)
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Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts
I'd be more worried about the thin wall of the chain stay where the brass terminates inside the stay. It may be academic, but if I'm bending things I like to stress them individually.
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Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
waterlaz
I can't imagine any sugnificant loss of strength to a steel dropout from bending it some 5-6 degrees or so.
Anyway, I don't know if what I'm doing is right, but I braze the dropouts first and then bend them.
I was quite shocked when I bent them and had the issue. It was a very slight bend, but it was also right up against the sharp edge of the vice jaw. Regardless, I am now in the camp of slot to fit, braze it up in the fork jig, then make only slight adjustments with frame end alignment tools post braze.
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Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts
The traditional way is for the slot to follow the center-line of the stay. The dropout angle is produced, or cranked by hand, to mate with the slot. Don't braze the dropout part straight mated to an angled slot. If the part comes straight it's only (ONLY) because the vendor wanted to save a penny or half-second on the labor and machinery.
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Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts
That's true for softer forged dropouts. The same can't be said for Paragon dropouts and their super thick tabs.
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Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts
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Originally Posted by
e-RICHIE
The traditional way is for the slot to follow the center-line of the stay. The dropout angle is produced, or cranked by hand, to mate with the slot. Don't braze the dropout part straight mated to an angled slot. If the part comes straight it's only (ONLY) because the vendor wanted to save a penny or half-second on the labor and machinery.
But surely there are lots of factors affecting the angle, for instance: wheel size, crown width, chainstay length, rear hub spacing?
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Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
William Chitham
But surely there are lots of factors affecting the angle, for instance: wheel size, crown width, chainstay length, rear hub spacing?
That's always been the case atmo.
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Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts
Certain dropouts, like Paragon Rockers, can't be bent so at some point you're (a general you, not any "you" in particular) going to have to learn to cut the stays with the appropriate angle.
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Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Will Neide
Certain dropouts, like Paragon Rockers, can't be bent so at some point you're (a general you, not any "you" in particular) going to have to learn to cut the stays with the appropriate angle.
If I were using these types, I'd be more inclined to reroute (as in reshape, curve, or bend) the stay so it engages the part head on rather than slot it at an angle. But that's just me thinking about the stay, the heat, and the asymmetry of the slotted area.
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Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
e-RICHIE
If I were using these types, I'd be more inclined to reroute (as in reshape, curve, or bend) the stay so it engages the part head on rather than slot it at an angle. But that's just me thinking about the stay, the heat, and the asymmetry of the slotted area.
You certainly could do that, but I think you'd be running into heel clearance issues. Especially when you start pushing the rear ends to 150+ mm. I just got a MTB frame in for repair that has a single bend chainstay and you can see he has lots of heel rub issues with the frame. The rear end is 135mm with tabbed sliders. The kind of bends you're thinking of wouldn't work in this particular set-up. This guy could really use an S bend so his heel stops brushing the chainstay.
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Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Will Neide
You certainly could do that, but I think you'd be running into heel clearance issues. Especially when you start pushing the rear ends to 150+ mm. I just got a MTB frame in for repair that has a single bend chainstay and you can see he has lots of heel rub issues with the frame. The rear end is 135mm with tabbed sliders. The kind of bends you're thinking of wouldn't work in this particular set-up. This guy could really use an S bend so his heel stops brushing the chainstay.
Think outside the box. Or build a new box. Only the last several centimeters would have to be rearranged in order for the stay to engage an un-cranked dropout head on.
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Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts
Old news from 2011: Firefly :: The Beginning :: Part 5 | Firefly Bicycles
Since then majorly upgraded our methods, but this is the basic idea of how we (used to) slot our stays.
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Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts
What it comes down to is that with longer dropout designs to accommodate for discs pushing the heel interference point towards the bottom bracket, the ability to form/shape a tube to retain a centered slot is drastically reduced.
"Traditional" methods of construction just do not lend themselves to the ever evolving requirements of mountain bike design...the new techniques and designs that accommodate for these needs ARE redefining "the box".
What has not changed is the requirement for solid technical fabrication skills...think through your solutions and execute.
rody
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Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts
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Originally Posted by
Rody
<cut>
"Traditional" methods of construction just do not lend themselves to the ever evolving requirements of mountain bike design...the new techniques and designs that accommodate for these needs ARE redefining "the box".
Agreed and fully understood. I was addressing tabbed dropouts and their use.
PS Not to get hung up on words, but "traditional" doesn't mean old, classic, or from the past.
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What has not changed is the requirement for solid technical fabrication skills...think through your solutions and execute.
Folks need to be reminded of this often.
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Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Will Neide
Certain dropouts, like Paragon Rockers, can't be bent so at some point you're (a general you, not any "you" in particular) going to have to learn to cut the stays with the appropriate angle.
I have a set of the Paul Track Ends that are pretty thick. Should I assume they also can't be bent?
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Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts
Those things are short and stout- I'd be slotting at an angle.