What ISIS Really Wants
Apparently not!
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What ISIS Really Wants
Apparently not!
Great longform read with no punches pulled. Thanks for sharing.
I just read that. Clash of civilizations, for sure.
Thanks, good read.
Agreed, good read, and makes intuitive sense.
Fantastic article.
In the US, I believe there was an almost reflexive response by some to differentiate the religious doctrine from the violence. This was done in the spirit of tolerance with good intentions.
It's ironic to me to find good, religion hating atheists instantly become apologists for the world's most intolerant religion as soon as the word 'terrorism' enters the conversation.
Or more likely people enlightened enough to take religion with a grain of salt are also observant and well informed to the point where they understand the bulk of the troops on the ground leading the fight against ISIS and AQ just happen to be made up of people who also profess Islamic beliefs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daltex
It's a hell of a lot more complicated than simple minded 'Murica -v- them.
I think it has to do with guilt and skin color. The lines between religion and race get blurred; it feels 'racist' and uncomfortable to criticize Islam because your average Muslim looks different. It doesn't feel racist to rail against a white, Christian conservative even though their level of intolerance might pale in comparison.
The problem has always been the Saudis.
If you can get 'Bitter Lake' which is a BBC funded documentary on Afghan history post WW2, watch it.
40 years from now, Syria/Iraq/Libya will still be just as messed up if not more.....
Googled the author, and wasn't surprised to find out he's a Deep Springer. If there's a clash to be found, those guys will find it or make it.Quote:
Originally Posted by davids
The problem is Islam itself, but I agree 40 years from now those countries will be messed up, just like they always have.Quote:
Originally Posted by vertical_doug
That region told us what they think of us long ago. We have short memories and/or are naive.
"In March 1785, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams went to London to negotiate with Tripoli's envoy, Ambassador Sidi Haji Abdrahaman (or Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja). When they enquired "concerning the ground of the pretensions to make war upon nations who had done them no injury", the ambassador replied:
It was written in their Koran, that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave; and that every mussulman who was slain in this warfare was sure to go to paradise. He said, also, that the man who was the first to board a vessel had one slave over and above his share, and that when they sprang to the deck of an enemy's ship, every sailor held a dagger in each hand and a third in his mouth; which usually struck such terror into the foe that they cried out for quarter at once.[21]"
First Barbary War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Agreed, this has been a big problem, perpetuated by us. It seems to me unfortunate that we have been sending big $$ to this absolute monarchy that suppresses human rights actively at home (no vote, no driving for women, etc.) and that actively funds salafist madrassas around the world for the last 70+ years. Global warming debate aside, to me it is worth promoting bikes and other ways to cut oil consumption just to avoid further funding of this society that works actively against values we profess as important.Quote:
Originally Posted by vertical_doug
The problem isn't "Islam". The problem is a strain of ultra-orthodox Islam that, combined with crushing poverty and political oppression, has turned into an engine of violence and oppression threatening vast numbers of people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Neide
One of the most important ideas I took from that article is that ISIS isn't Al Qaeda (and isn't the Muslim Brotherhood, isn't the Saudi royal family, isn't the Al Nusra Front, etc. etc...) Quoting another Muslim whose point of view mirrors ISIS doesn't make them all the same. We have got to understand this organization for what it is - a political-religious movement bent on re-establishing a Caliphate as laid out in the Koran.
Conflating ISIS and "Islam" is like conflating the NJ Rabbi who was kidnapping husbands to force them to grant divorces, or the black-hatted Chasids threatening little girls for not dressing modestly, with "Judaism". There's a thousand ways to be a Muslim, and ISIS is a toxic evil version of the religion.
We need to start figuring out a way of destroying ISIS that doesn't have the perverse consequence of driving more disaffected Muslims into their orbit.
?? Everybody knows this. Not only your self-selected 'enlightened and well informed'. I don't know anybody that doesn't know that ISIS is fighting in the middle east and fighting against armies from these muslim majority countries, or the fact that ISIS has killed thousands of civilians.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew J
??? I never said anything like that. No where in the thread does anyone take that position. The article doesn't even allude to such a thing. You made up a statement & position, then responded to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew J
Of course the problem is Islam. These acts are are inspired by this religion, right or wrong.
Why is it so difficult for folks to criticsize a religion???
I'm not a big religious guy. Remove the 'Magic Guy in the Sky' from it and its just a social club. Like the Shriners.
If the Shriner's doctrine and codes were inspiring countless acts of violence and oppression, it'd be easy to criticsize.
How do you feel about the President saying, "...remember that during the Crusades and the Inquisition, people committed terrible deeds in the name of Christ. In our home country, slavery and Jim Crow all too often was justified in the name of Christ." ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Daltex
Some people felt he was criticizing Christianity and were quite upset.
I saw it more as a reminder that terrible things have been done in the name of, hell, pretty much every religion. And that we should be attacking those terrible things (and the people doing them) rather than the broader religion.
i think you missed a big pointQuote:
Originally Posted by Daltex
it's not about islam, it's about some extremists that interpret some ancient scriptures literally.
i'm not very religious so i might be wrong here, but doesn't the bible have scriptures that reference owning slaves and things women arent allowed to do so on and so forth...
does that make all catholics or christians a "problem" too?
As soon Catholic slavery and oppression occurs on a scale that rivals Islamic oppression & violence, then YES it would be a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cookietruck
rightQuote:
Originally Posted by Daltex
so you believe anyone that is islamic is a supporter of ISIS?
No religion should be above criticism. What upset me was using things that happened 1,000 years ago as a way to excuse or rationalize horrible acts of violence and oppression that are happening today.Quote:
Originally Posted by davids
How do you get there from what I said?????Quote:
Originally Posted by Cookietruck
Of course not.
Not all policeman single out blacks for inquiry and are more likely to shoot a black. But denying that there may be some cultural issues with the police community that need to be addressed is silly.
People are upset with those remarks because they are a false comparision. It also is a cheap shot soundbite, that neglects to represent the situation in that region at the time as well as the events that led up to the crusades. It also doesn't reflect the current state of affairs and the events happening in real time.Quote:
Originally Posted by davids
So you think that was intended to "excuse or rationalize" ISIS's, Al Qaeda's, etc. actions?Quote:
Originally Posted by Daltex
In what respect is comparing the Crusades with ISIS's behavior a false comparison? Both use religious doctrine to justify, and even glorify, extreme atrocities. I've got some stories about what the Crusaders did to my ancestors in case you doubt their bloodthirsty cruelty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Neide
I disagree thatt he problem is Islam. ISIS is made up of evil dudes, and they are gonna be just as evil regardless of their religion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daltex
Is there some fucked up shit in Islamic scripture? Hell yes there is, but there is much of the same fucked up shit in the Old Testament.
The thing is, people have free will. The members of ISIS can choose tto live in peace just as 99.99% of the other Muslims and Christians in the world do. "Mohammed made me do it" is a bullshit excuse.
That being said Glenn, I still love you. Just not as I love myself, IYKWIM;)
One thing is for sure. Isis will drive us to be as brutal as they are and both sides will feel morally justified doing it and eventually it will be as one vietnam vet on this forum says.."there is no right, there is no wrong, it's just who is left". I don't know that we have much choice and that's really sad. And if anyone thinks there are many in mainstream Christianity who don't think this is proof of end times prophecy you are just as naive as you claim others to be. There are many who will gladly take up this holy war with their sons leading the way. Hell, in Alabama the Chief Justice is still fighting the civil war.
Their are 31,173 verses in the old and new testaments, most would consider Christian doctrine coming from the new testament . If you really want a answer addressing your question, you will have to be more specific as to what "scriptures" you are referring to. Chapter and verse would be helpful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cookietruck
I've got minimal interest in going down this road. It's a race to the bottom to see who can "out do" the other with stories of atrocities. I'm familiar with your stories.Quote:
Originally Posted by davids
I love you more than you love me. That's apparent.Quote:
Originally Posted by edoz
People do what they do. There is no sort of mind control.
But there is no denying that THIS religion inspires a grossly disproportionate amount of terrorism, violence, and heinous oppression of women & gays, etc.
Take terrorism out of it. I'm not a fan simply based on its stone age views of women, gays, and religious freedoms.
The tense of your chosen verb is the operative thing here: ISIS is using, the Crusaders used. As in, a really, really long time ago. I'm no religious scholar, but I'm pretty sure every other major religion has evolved with modern times to a large degree. At let's not forget, ISIS is just the (most flamboyantly awful) flavor of the month. Killing in the name of Islam, by lots of different groups, has been going on for a long time now during modern times.Quote:
Originally Posted by davids
The beauty of all this is we can still disagree with each other civilly without fear of having our heads removed.
Some of the problem is America views many of these issues as good vs evil, which simplifies the situation and never seems to get to the root cause.Quote:
Originally Posted by edoz
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, so after 100+ years maybe America will be better off just sitting this one out. We aren't going to do your dirty bombing work, we aren't going to train your soldiers, go ahead have at it. (It is important the West doesn't give asylum to the elite of the affected countries. They have to stay too)
No way.......because THIS time it's going to fix everything......Quote:
Originally Posted by vertical_doug
Quote:
Originally Posted by vertical_doug
In theory I'm with ya. Let's just get out and let them have at it. Our dependence on Saudi oil won't allow us to sit by and watch though. I'm guessing we are the Saudi guards, so to speak, and with ISIS undoubtedly eyeing up Mecca and Medina, and the Sunni Saudi army questionable in strength, the Saudi royals to a great extent rely on us as we do them. They have already requested more US support, so I think that speaks volumes. ISIS wants, no... NEEDS, to occupy those two major cities.
I heard an interesting interview with a prison warden who noted that Islam was becoming the philosophy of the oppressed. He likened it to Marxism/Communism in the 1950's-70's. It was interesting though I've got nothing to back up the assertion.
The three ISIS bottom brackets I've owned were pure evil.
Because of shale, our imports are declining. As of Nov 2014, we only imported 1.5mm b from that area. This is easily replaceable from non-opec, canada and domestic production. Obviously Europe, Japan and China do not have this luxury, but every war has collateral damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Neide
naw, i don't really have any interest in any testament old or new.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Modern, religion-inspired violence around the world...
Violent Buddists- July 2014:
A Coordinated Extremist Buddhist Network Is Sowing Hatred Across Asia
Active Christian militant group:
State Dept. Spokeswoman: 'Christian Militant Group' Among 'Extremist Threats We Face' | CNS News
Extremist Jews:
Racist Jewish Group Offers Dilemma to Israel as Anti-Arab Violence Rises – Forward.com
Violent Mormon fundamentalists:
Mormon Fundamentalism and Violence: A Historical Analysis
Violent athiest:
Chapel Hill Muslim Murders Show Atheism Has Violent Extremists Too | The New Republic
The moral of the story is that you can't pigeonhole crazy.
oh my curiosity got the better of me.
Violent passages in the Koran and the Bible - The Boston Globe
once again, this isn't a problem with religion.
could it be somewhat political and have something to do with destabilization and western influence?
http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/52193619.jpg
It's wholly and unequivocally intellectually dishonest to draw a moral equivalency between these statistically invisible events and the ongoing, organized, well financed onslaught of Islamic terrorism.Quote:
Originally Posted by miwuksurfer