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Shop Dog Cycles - Road Build Chronical
I'm building a road frame for my brother, and thought I would document the build here.
First - Thank you to all of you who regularly post. The community on this forum is amazing!
Second - I am open, and looking forward to, any commentary and/or questions about my process and workmanship. Don't hold back.
Third - Just trying to give back myself. My resources are fairly raw... I have no jig, no true surface plate, a basic set of files, a hack saw and a torch. I hope my make do methods will help others also with limited resources.
I'll post pics of my daily work, but don't be surprised if occasionally weeks go between postings.
Let's start! To work with, a set of PegoRichie pipes and Rene Singer Lugs. A steel fork will be built to match.
Beware of the Shop Dog! She licks!
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The design.
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Rolling the tubes between a set of homemade wooden v-blocks.
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A hand me down dial indicator helps me to find the high spots.
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I mark a center line down the length of the tube on the high spot using a piece of aluminum angle as my guide. I was playing around with a few different markers to see which ones I liked best. Previously I have preferred the Sharpie Ultra Fine Point, but the Milwaukee Inzall was very nice. it is a lot like the typical Sharpie Fine Point, but the point seems much firmer, so we'll see if it holds up better over time. The typical Sharpie Fine Point is ok when new, but still a little on the fat side. The Komelon Fine Point I found at Farm & Fleet was not good at all for this application.
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A nice new set of maple tubing blocks... all from a $2.75 remnant piece from the lumber yard.
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Yes, I got it now Richard, the painted end of the seat tube goes into the bottom bracket. Regardless, checking the other end with the seat post won't hurt. Measure 5 times, cut once. Bicycle tubing is expensive!
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Showing the tube who's boss. A few minutes with the hack saw and files. A mill would be nice for production work, but unless you have a dedicated machine for it I think it would take longer to set up than this took.
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A little bling will do. These should braze up nicely!
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The prepped seat tube.
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The prepped head tube, and that will be enough for tonight.
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Day 2
Ok, it is two weeks since I started this thread, but this is day 2 of the build process. I hate how life gets in the way!
Here's the down tube
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It's starting to take shape!
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Just a top tube to go, and it will be time to strike up the torch!
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Day 3
If you didn't learn something today, you probably weren't paying attention.
Today I prepped the top tube. Miters on both ends, and then holes for an internally routed brake cable.
I used the tube miter program on the Nova website to give me the shape of the ellipse for the brass brake tunnel tube.
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After cutting the ellipse by drilling a couple of holes and connecting them with a couple of cuts the Dremel tool, I chucked up a round bastard file to open it up a little more.
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So here was my big learning experience of the day... If you try this, run the drill in REVERSE! I started with it in forward, and the file sucked right in. If I hadn't stopped quickly, I would have quickly widened the hole and the tip of the file might have dented the other side. I finished opening it up in reverse.
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I cleaned the whole up with a fine needle file, and you can see how nicely the brass tube exits through the hole.
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I will be closing these off with those little exit plates.
I am hoping to be brazing soon!
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Novice question, but what is the point in finding the high point of a tube?
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It's usual to orient the tube's bowing in a plane centered to the frame so when checking alignment the bowing is not a factor. Simple example is that with a bowed tube it's center could be many thousandths off compared to the ends, so where along the tube do you call the base for your alignment to start from? With the tube rotationally placed so that the bowing is in plane with the frame the tube's sides will be much closer to straight/flat making the alignment check process that much easier. Andy.
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Re: Shop Dog Cycles - Road Build Chronical
Good idea with the file, reminds me of a few times I've "milled" with drillbits in carbon fiber. . .
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Re: Shop Dog Cycles - Road Build Chronical
Quote:
Originally Posted by
whilgenberg
Good idea with the file, reminds me of a few times I've "milled" with drillbits in carbon fiber. . .
Thanks! One challenge I am finding with this tonight... Although it makes a nice snug exit, the brass channel is delicate and kinks easily when bending. the more snug your entry and exit point, the more precise you have to be with how you contour the brass channel. I'm getting ready to order more, but this time from McMaster-Carr. I found the following thread in the archives very useful for this stage of the top tube. In particular, the step by step by Zank.
http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum...highlight=napa
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Re: Shop Dog Cycles - Road Build Chronical
Michael,
If I may suggest...files are not designed to be used in a rotational/torsional fashion, such as in a drill. You can achieve the same outcome by a few in line strokes with the same file and not risk breaking the tool, your tube, or your wrist.
Also, when bending thin tubing for internal cable routing, you can fill the tube with brass rod to support the inner diameter, limiting the probability of kinks and stressed areas, leading to longevity.
Here's a quick video I put together years ago on how to create internal routing with a flush finish...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiDp95XvHUc
rody
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Re: Shop Dog Cycles - Road Build Chronical
I usually put a piece of housing into the brass tube when shaping it for the install.
I've only forgotten to take it out once before brazing :)
I knew sumpin was wrong when the black plastic fire came shooting out the end of the tube.....
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Are you running full length cable through the frame? Is this the standard for internal in steel frames? Does anyone find the extra friction to be a drag? Anyone use internal cable stops?
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Re: Shop Dog Cycles - Road Build Chronical
Thanks Rody & Jake!
I'll try the brass rod or some housing. I've got plenty of scrap tube to play around with now!
I picked up some more brass tubing from the hardware store this evening, which is a very economical place to pick it up.
Parker - My take is that most of the steel frame builders are either running a tube for routing the housing through, but some just put on the entry and exit plates. My RON COOPER frame just has the entry and exit plates with not tube, and this can make running the housing through a pain. Whenever I have to replace the housing, I tape the new piece to the old piece and then pull the new one through as I pull the old one out.
Bikes have used full length housings for the rear brake for years. Think of all the frames that just had the loops on the top tube that the cable was passed through. I'm not saying that we can't evolve and move to better things, but I have never felt an issue with too much drag due to a full length housing. I have both styles on two different bikes to compare side by side, and both have great action.
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Days 4 & 5
An hour at the dog park mellows the high energy pooch. If I had her energy level, I'd be a Cat 1!
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Let's start making some sub-assemblies!
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Am I the only one who collects these little silver bits! It feels like I have to chuck them up in a roach clip to use every last bit I can.
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I picked up some new brass tubing from the hardware store. It was 9/32 w/ 0.14 wall thickness manufactured by K&S. This was noticeably more durable than the tubing sold by Nova, and did not kink when I bent it. It also came in longer lengths (3'), which made it easier to work with, and was about half the price. This is also available from McMaster-Carr.
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Putting on the bling! The diamonds will go nicely with the Rene Singer lug set.
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Day 6
Just got back from NAHBS this evening, and had to get back into the shop to marry the seat tube with the bottom bracket shell. This is where my process will start to deviate from those with jigs. It's a longer process, but it's what I got!
I start by clamping the bb shell between two pieces of steel angle iron that are also clamped at the end with a bock the same width as the bb shell. This keeps the steel angle parallel. In the case of the pictures below, these are actually post-braze, because I forgot to take some pictures pre-braze. Post-braze I put the assembly back in to check that it is still centered with a set of feeler gauges I cut on the table saw. High tech enough to work :bigsmile:
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After getting the seat tube square to the bb shell, I braze a tack while clamped in the angle. Next I check it again with the feelers. Then I put it in my park stand and do the full braze.
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Flux soaked off...
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A little emery cloth & scotch brite action, and this joint is looking good! From the inside of the shell, I could see silver flow through all around the bottom of the tube.
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Day 7
Here is my answer to not having a jig, or at least not your typical jig. I guess at the heart of it, it is still a jig.
For just a couple of dollars, I picked up a check of 3/4" MDF board from the hardware store. From AutoCAD, I print out the angle at which I need to hold my tubes. In this case, I am starting with the head tube / down tube assembly. After cutting the MDF board at the proper angle, I cut a couple of grooves in the edges to keep the board centered on the tubes. Through a couple of holes, I hold it all together with some hose clamps.
For a long time I was stalled on getting started in frame building, because I did not have a jig. With a jig outside of my budget, I spent countless hours trying to come up with an 80/20 type jig, only to find out that this too was more time & money than I really was ready to invest in. Finally, I saw the light a and put forth a plan to just buy a damn set of tubes and lugs. Thanks Richard! this was the post that told me to shit or get off the pot: Downsize The Fantasy | RICHARD SACHS CYCLES
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This method of holding the tubes is a perfectly good one with one caveat. That is many tubes are not really straight but have a bit of a curve along their length. So if you were to roll the tube on a flat plate there would be a bowing, usually seen in the mid sections. Often this bowing will be aligned to the frame's center plane. This bowing can be enough to distort the seeming correct angle (to another tube) as measured over the tube's entire length instead of just the last few inches of the tube. The center point to center point dimensions can drift off the intended. This is why many jigs hold the tubes at their ends only and the clamping along the mid sections of the tubes is not where the measurements are being done at.
I built a number of "hockey" stick process bikes (HT to DT and ST to TT in two subassemblies then joined together) and found some dimension drift usually was present. This is why full scale drawings and pins with tacks are still done by many who don't have "real" jigs.
BTW your brazing looks very nice. Andy
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Thumbs up for creative function Michael.
r
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Re: Shop Dog Cycles - Road Build Chronical
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LoHiFab
more dog pictures
No Problem... More dogs were just delivered just two days ago!
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Not our litter, but Carly is our dog Kona's cousin. I'll get more pictures of Kona too.
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Re: Shop Dog Cycles - Road Build Chronical
Thank you Andy & Rody for your kind words.
Andy - Prior to cutting the tubes, I roll them with a dial indicator to find the high spots and put the bow in plane with the frame's centerline.
Day 8 - Next step... Dry fitting everything up prior to brazing.
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The top tube on this frame will have a slight slope to it. The small size and slope are requiring some deviation from the angles cast into the lugs. A little work with my files, some emery cloth on the end of my drill, Dremel tool, pliers, hammer, and a little persuasion... and I have them right where I want them.
I am on the lookout for a proper surface plate, hoping to find one at auction in my price range. Until then I am working on a nice chunk of granite yanked from a kitchen remodel.
I'm away on vacation with the family this week, but I am hoping to get the front triangle brazed up when I return in a week. That will also be about the time I can crack open the first bottle from a new batch of hefeweizen, and get the next batch of our oaked vanilla bourbon stout bottled up... There is a lot that goes into this whole frame building process!
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Forgive me V-Salon community, for I have sinned. It has been too long since my last post, but the current thread dominating the forum has inspired me to add pics of my latest build to the thread I had started.
I'm further along than the pictures show, but I am trying to keep them coming in order of the days works. Keep in mind, I just do a little each day...
Here is day 9, part 1, brazing of the main triangle.
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Doh!
I had some comments next to each of the pictures in my previous post, but I timed out as I was making edits. Here they are...
I am building without a formal jig, so my $1 jig consists of a piece of MDF with grooves cut in the edges and cut at the angle I want to hold the tubes. The triangle is fluxed and assembled, then checked on my chunk of kitchen granite and my parallel pieces of angle iron held in the vice. The assembly is tacked, then checked again before the lugs get fully brazed.
Next, time to soak off the flux and clean up the lugs with some emery cloth and scotch brite.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Michael Gordon
I am on the lookout for a proper surface plate, hoping to find one at auction in my price range. Until then I am working on a nice chunk of granite yanked from a kitchen remodel.
Thanks for the great thread! You do very nice work.
How is your granite not a proper surface plate? I guess I'm confused with the differences between alignment tables and surface plates. They all allow you to measure frame alignment right? What are the differences? Is the difference between your granite slab and a proper surface plate the thickness? If so, is the added thickness necessary to support a BB post? I only ask because I am looking around to get an old granite counter top as well and thought that was all I needed. Thanks!
Matt Lucas
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I guess the extra benefit is in knowing the surface table should be pretty accurate where as the granite bench top may not be as accurate. I am willing to be it is close enough for frame building though and it would be prudent to check and correct any surface you used.
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Re: Shop Dog Cycles - Road Build Chronical
A granite slab is cut and ground in a very similar way to a granite surface plate
However a surface plate is calibrated within certain points this can be as high as 40 microns between highs and lows on some larger plates, on the back of a good plate you usually find 3 points upon which the plate was mounted when it was ground in these are used to mount the plate on its kinematic mount, 3points define a plane so if you are doing inspection work of critically dimensioned parts its a good idea hence sticking It 4 points can introduce twist and a flat bench it can do the same
I think I mentioned before precision and accuracy are two different things you could have a granite plate that is miles out and then put your clock ,comparitor whatever on it claiming x or y figure in al honesty it can be a fair bit out depending on your method
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I think that for the purpose of framebuilding you can check if your plate is good enough by looking at the distortion of the reflection image the plate gives you. If you don't see any visible distortion standing a couple of meters away from the plate, the plate should be ok.
Or you could just put a straight edge and try to fit shims made from beer cans between the straight edge and the plate.
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The surface plate is something I meant to comment on.
I have found that clamping the frame to a piece of granite kitchen counter top with C-Clamp is not very accurate. After brazing, I camped my frame to the granite, and found that it was suggesting that my frame was severely off in one direction. I flipped it over, clamped it down, and found that it was not off in the opposite direction. This had me baffled for quite a while, until I took the main triangle to a local shop with a proper surface plate. It was in much better alignment than my home grown method was telling me, but still need about a mm of persuasion. I'd imagine that the error in my method came from both the inaccuracy of the granite itself, and the clamping method. When I put a level with a good aluminum edge against the granite and a light on the other side, I can see the waviness in the granite. It is small, but it is there. I'm sure there is also a level of inaccuracy in the flatness of the aluminum edge of my level. I guess that it why it is best to buy a properly ground plate.
My next investment is going to be a proper surface plate. I have found I can buy a 24"x36" granite plate locally for $220 brand new. I'd prefer something just a little bit larger made out of steel, which would be a little lighter and easier to get into the basement than the next size granite plate at 36"x48" (I think weighing in around 800 lbs). I haven't found the right piece yet. During a road trip through Michigan, I stopped in to visit Doug Fattic at his shop. One of his bits of advice was that a surface plate is one of the best tools one should invest in, long before purchasing a jig.
Once I get a plate, I'll have to have a post made. I know there are a lot of good threads on the forum on surface plates that I will have to re-read before I make the investment.
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Yes. The surface plate is invaluable. I bought mine off Keith at Kumo for $400. It took me another $600 to get it shipped. Anything else I found was in the multiple of thousands but this is Australia where even a shitty run down lathe people are asking $500-600. My table is 1800x770 (70"x30") and weighs about 700kg (1500lb). I need a 1.5t engine hoist to move it and even then it's an absolute mission.
I also don't clamp my frame down on the whipping post. I do it Dazza style and just rest it with perfect height stand offs for the tubes etc.
Back to your frame building Michael. Looking really good so far and I love the resourceful problem solving. I've had to do some of that myself for my frames.
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Re: Shop Dog Cycles - Road Build Chronical
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Michael Gordon
The surface plate is something I meant to comment on.
I have found that clamping the frame to a piece of granite kitchen counter top with C-Clamp is not very accurate. After brazing, I camped my frame to the granite, and found that it was suggesting that my frame was severely off in one direction. I flipped it over, clamped it down, and found that it was not off in the opposite direction. This had me baffled for quite a while, until I took the main triangle to a local shop with a proper surface plate. It was in much better alignment than my home grown method was telling me, but still need about a mm of persuasion. I'd imagine that the error in my method came from both the inaccuracy of the granite itself, and the clamping method. When I put a level with a good aluminum edge against the granite and a light on the other side, I can see the waviness in the granite. It is small, but it is there. I'm sure there is also a level of inaccuracy in the flatness of the aluminum edge of my level. I guess that it why it is best to buy a properly ground plate.
My next investment is going to be a proper surface plate. I have found I can buy a 24"x36" granite plate locally for $220 brand new. I'd prefer something just a little bit larger made out of steel, which would be a little lighter and easier to get into the basement than the next size granite plate at 36"x48" (I think weighing in around 800 lbs). I haven't found the right piece yet. During a road trip through Michigan, I stopped in to visit Doug Fattic at his shop. One of his bits of advice was that a surface plate is one of the best tools one should invest in, long before purchasing a jig.
Once I get a plate, I'll have to have a post made. I know there are a lot of good threads on the forum on surface plates that I will have to re-read before I make the investment.
There are plenty of ways to get a surface plate without buying a huge slab of steel or granite. Build Pro sells their table tops in sections. One will suffice to start and it can ship to you and is light enough to move without rigging. There are several places in the city that Blanchard grind. Bring it there, grind it. You'll end up with something similar but better than a Bringhelli. Alex Meade has a great BB Post. Repeat a few times with other table top sections if you wish and you can have a huge "surface table" that can also accept professional welding fixtures, leveling feet, and many other accessories. End of the day if you hobby out of frames you will still have a top of the line welding table that can move with you and fixture to accommodate new horizons.
If you buy a granite or steel table, I'd have it calibrated. The cheap granite tables become expensive when you add shipping, rigging, and calibration. I'd also be concerned with the floor. Many basements were not poured with very thick floors and your stairs down might be an issue to consider as well.
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Frame building doesn't require upscale metrology.
You can go to your local supplier of granite bench tops and ask to see the cutoffs. Assess how flat the individual pieces are by laying an engineer's straight edge along them in several directions. Choose the one with the best overall flatness, voila a "surface plate" for a couple of hundred bucks. When you get it home, mount it on a frame with jack screws and repeat the process, using the jackscrews to get it flat. Yes, there will probably be 0.1 or 0.2 mm deviation across the surface: so what?
My setup didn't even cost that much: I have a couple of laser line generators which cost about $50 each. Attach them to the tubes (or the jig), point them at the opposite wall, when the lines are parallel so are the tubes (or jig sections).
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I was going down the granite slab route and even had a frame with jack screw system modeled up with nine points (because I'm anal about it) but Keith's table came up and I jumped at it thinking a couple hundred for the shipping. Kind of wished I went for the granite in some respects but damn it's great to use.
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Re: Shop Dog Cycles - Road Build Chronical
Thank you all for the surface plate suggestions. I agree that frame building does not require NASA level precision, but I am finding myself frustrated with the chunk of granite I have. it could be my clamping method, my chunk of granite, or more likely a combination of both.
I am fortunate that I can pick up a grade B surface plate for $220, which would probably not be that much more than a cutoff. If I had to also ship it, that would be an entirely different story.
I'm also a little OCD about certain things, which is another reason I want to upgrade. Easier to spend a couple dollars than rewire myself.
As for the progress on the frame... the chain stays are in, the seat stays are capped and ready to get brazed on. I'll get back to posting more pics soon.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Michael Gordon
..........Easier to spend a couple dollars than rewire myself...........
I'll get back to posting more pics soon.
I've tried the rewire and it always ends up disappointing me.
Enough babble from us.......
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Re: Shop Dog Cycles - Road Build Chronical
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Michael Gordon
Until then I am working on a nice chunk of granite yanked from a kitchen remodel.
it must be the lighting, or more probably me, but the thing on the photo does not look to me as if made of granite. Anyway, maybe you can try to insert machined steel plate with parallel faces let's say 300x300x15mm between table and BB and then clamp it. Just make4 sure that you always orient it the same way, and put it on the same place on the table.
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Not sure when I did this one, but it was a good little piece to do between other steps... probably while I was waiting for the rest of the frame to cool.
I'm in the camp that a lugged steel frame should have a steel fork made to match. It is an aesthetic thing for me. I have steel bikes with steel forks, carbon bikes with carbon forks, but I've never ridden a steel bike with a steel fork. This frame is being made with the same head tube angle to an existing frame that has a carbon fork. Eventually, the forks will be swapped for a controlled comparison, swapping only one variable... the fork.
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Let's call this day 10...
Sorry I forgot to snap pics of the dropouts being brazed into place, but here is the step by step on what I did.
1. I gave the inside of the tubes and exterior mating surfaces of the dropouts a quick cleaning with some emery, followed by a wipe down with some acetone.
2. Taking a queue from e-Ritchie, I used a tiny round needle file to create a little hole in each side of the stay to feed my filler rod into.
3. I fluxed them all up, and put the dropouts into the stays and the stays into the bottom bracket, then topped it all off with the dummy axle and my rear end jig to make sure everything was held square as I brazed. They stays were not brazed into the bottom bracket at this point. The ends were cleaned up before I then cut the stays to length and then put the whole thing back together again to later braze the stays in place.
OK, so with the dropouts brazed on and cleaned up, now to braze the stays in place...
The rear dropout in the dummy axle.
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You may notice some glazed over flux in this pic. First I did a quick tack of the stays into the bottom bracket shell. Next I took the whole assembly apart and re-checked everything. Checked with the frame park frame gauge, the dropout alignment gauges, put a wheel in the rear end, checked the clearance between the stays, dropped a plumb line from the top of the rim, then checked it all again...
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...and finally put the rear end jig back into place for brazing.
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All brazed up!
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