Indoor training - the big shoot out

At casa TT we have been loyal Computrainer, Insideride and Trutrainer devotees since the dawn of man. The Computrainer especially has been stalwart companion, reliable, cruel and accurate. Rollers break the tedium and help me maintain supple peddaling.....end of story. These three cruel devices in my experience have no equal for accessible, affordable indoor cycle training.....OR are they????

Wahoo, Tacx have amazing trainers. Educate Vsalon, talk about indoor trainers. Bonus points both for technology heavy applications and for old school sweat box solutions we need to hear it all.
Wahoo Fitness

Kurt Kinetic user here. In fact, I just finished an hour of tempo on mine thanks to a nice little rain storm. My approach is simple. Get on, do my workout, and get off as soon as possible. The Kinetic is no nonsense, reliable, and quiet enough that I don't have to banish myself to the garage. I used to like rollers, but I bought the Kinetic to stay in shape after breaking a collarbone. I haven't touched the rollers since. If I lived somewhere where I needed the trainer for an entire season, that would be a different story. But mine just gets used as an alternative to keep the training program going on days when the weather isn't cooperating. Relative to technology rich solution like CompuTrainer, I'm definitely more on the sweatbox side of things. I hear good things about the Wahoo trainers. I doubt I'll ever wear out the Kurt enough to get a replacement, though.

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7471/...300ecb69_c.jpg

Bonus tip: Camo tape makes you work harder. It's a fact.

My pain Cave:

1) eMotion rollers
2) Kurt Kinetic
3) Concept 2 rower
4) Weights and squat rack
5) 12 x 12 foot area with workout matting (wife primary user, she does a lot of aerobics type stuff and needed cushion instead of concrete)


Do almost all of my indoor riding on the eMotions. I like the feel of "riding" and paying attention to what I'm doing as opposed to sitting on the fixed trainer. I use the fixed trainer for specific workouts on my TT bike. 2-3 hours is very doable on rollers. During winter I will ride 6-7 days a week in the basement.

Aside: I also use rollers (foldable Kreitlers) for pre-race warm up. Can hop on, ride and not worry about wear on the rear tire or swapping wheels. The foldable Kreitlers with small drums take up very little space in the car.

Have spent a fair amount of time on Computrainer and absolutely understand why people like them. Particularly if you have a few ganged together and workout with buddies. A few teams are doing this locally and it is a nice change from isolation in your own "pain cave". If I was fixed trainer oriented instead of rollers I'd go this route. Probably the Wahoo. Teammate has the Tac-X "computrainer" and it's been a pain in the butt for him.

The Concept 2 rower is a great piece of durable equipment. I row a couple times a week in the winter. Great diversion, give some upper body and core, etc.

If I could only have one item in my home workout space it would be eMotions hands down.

NOTE: am very interested in the Salon view on Wahoo. My dad is spending more and more time indoors and currently has a generic trainer. I'd like to upgrade him to something more entertaining but less complex and finicky than the Computrainer.

Tnx,

Mark

Sounds like a great setup, Mark. Have any pics to share? I'm hoping to turn my garage into something similar this winter.

I don't think anything compares to a Computrainer and really wish I had one. or 2. Used them previously during the winter, but it's kept at a shop that I'm only at once or twice a month.

Currently I just use the cheap mag Cycle-Ops that has resistance settings. Wind and fluid trainers annoy me to no end, and I don't quite understand their popularity. I've never just sat on a trainer without direction, though. It's always a specific workout with specific power numbers or HR.

Interested in hearing more about the Kickr.

I have been a tong time Computrainer user (10+ years), but am intrigued about the Wahoo Kickr.

I am moving the location of my pain cave with a limited amount of space and getting rid of the computer to support the computrainer would help.

None that show it off well. Poor lighting in the basement. I'm putting in some new LEDs this weekend and will take so

I use a fixed gear on e-motion rollers

42 x 15 gives me three kinds of workouts:

mag setting 0 = tempo. 90rpm gives me ~ 260w. 105 rpm ~300

mag setting 1 = threshold or VO2. 90 rpm puts me at ~305w. 110 rpm and it's now a VO2 interval.

this setup is good for getting on the rollers for an hour, maybe an hour and a half, doing some work, and then shutting it down.

the track bike (a cheap Specialized Langster) means no brakes, levers, or derailleurs to sweat damage. the hubs are crap, & along with heavy tubes the rolling resistance keeps the efforts from getting too inertial. I like how the fixed means I have to work on cadence and suppleness to go harder, rather than pushing a big gear all winter.

I do weights twice a week:

walking lunges warm up
2-3 sets single leg hops (last eight weeks with a 5-10lb ball in the opposite hand)
2-3 sets double leg hops with 10lb ball

3 sets each of squats, dead lifts, romanian dead lifts, abdominal pikes

Mostly do weights and assorted bodyweight training, all year, not just in the Winter.

That said, to keep some cycling fitness, I have a Kurt Kinetic, which I use with Trainerroad. The Trainerroad interface is fantastic, and has totally decent/usable power estimation with the Kurt (my POS trainer bike has no power meter). For those so inclined, Trainerroad also offers tons of preset workouts and training plans that you can use for no extra charge. The best thing is that their interface compresses down to just a couple inches of screen space so I can watch Netflix and movies and stuff on the computer screen while still being able to see my HR, route, power, etc. stats with great legibility at the same time.

I have a set of Sportcrafters rollers where I've just swapped from the add-on mag resistance unit to the progressive resistance rear drum and the high inertia middle drum. I believe Sportcrafters private labels rollers for CycleOps, or vice versa. Anyhow, they are the same units and accessories.

I have them on a eMotion type floating platform that I made based on a couple of different approaches on the web/YouTube. I'm not particularly handy and didn't want to do anything where I had to drill the roller frame, so it was pretty simple to build using 1x3s, some old rollerblade wheels, some screws, a few bolts, some bungee cords, and a saw, wrench, screwdriver and a drill.

Plenty of resistance, a good road feel, and are as easy to use as pump up the tires put on the bike and go -- no need for a special trainer tire, wheel swap etc. If I really want to go eyes-crossed, bucket at the ready I did also get the front fork mount to hold the front end in place. I have rarely used it as I prefer training the neuromuscular side for cycling as specifically as possible.

Supporting technology is what makes this work for me. Big TrainerRoad and Sufferfest fan. Integration of the real-time workout data and the training vids is wonderful, and I like the virtual power calcs in TrainerRoad since I don't have a physical powermeter.

I like keeping the technology hardware/software separate from the training hardware itself. Use my PC with a Garmin ANT+ stick to pick up HR, speed and cadence data from my Garmin sensors. Add in a 22" LED TV, an inexpensive wireless remote mouse, a headset (have an extension cable for it running along the ceiling now, Bluetooth headset in the R&D phase), and I'm ready to go.

On the overall strength/fitness side of things I have a half cage at home, but find I'm just better at strength work when I go to the gym. Since I'm retired from the corp gig I don't have to go at O-dark:30, but get there right after the before office-time folks leave and before the soccer moms come in, so I have free access to everything there. I use most the free weights (squats, deads, and a bunch of different pulling/pushing stuff, plus kettlebells. I've I could only do one thing it would be Turkish get ups.

My issue is an arthritic knee which has degenerated to bone-on-bone, so figuring what I can do for lower body without pissing it off more is the challenge, as it's to the point where even just riding can be uncomfortable.

Oh, and working on mobility -- Supple Leopard type of stuff is awesome. My PT also does dry needling, and that works wonderfully too.

insideride rollers, kettlebells, creativity, commitment and a zero fuck around mindset. workouts are short and deadly hard. am in far (and i mean vastly superior) condition at 41 than i was at 21 or 31.

Went with that BKool product SteveP mentioned when my old fluid trainer bearings wore out at the beginning of last winter. I was looking for some sort of product like the Computrainer but decided to go cheap(ish). I like it, given that I came from something with zero capability to power test and so on. It works for me, I like being able to with a little work recreate a pretty close simulation of the ride profiles I have from the Polar bike computer. I haven't played with their video rides yet, it looks like they're adding a lot. Their library of ride profiles is good. They've improved their "bots" so if you need a carrot or a stick there's more choices there, which was one thing I thought should have been fairly easy. Their phone app to trainer route Google map conversion was primitive last year, but worked OK. I've had no issues with software defects. We'll see how the hardware holds up this year. I don't have the charts in front of me but I likely put 100+/- hours on the thing last winter.

Would I buy again if I were buying this year? Tough call. Apparently some of the other ones like Tacx and Wahoo have matured as well. Would I just bite the bullet and go with the long time standard and install a Computrainer? I don't know. For the kind of money you spend on a product like even the BKool I'd check out all the options. Last year it was a good decision, though.

I really try to mix it up during the winter. Spinning class at the Y over lunch hour. Kettlebell and jump rope in the garage. Plain old weights at the Y and dumbells in the basement. Treadmill and eliptical. I also purchased an old spinning bike from the Y when they upgraded. Used to have a trainer, but with the spinning bike the rest of the family can use it as well. Lots of Netflicks to take the mind off the grind. I found some bmx races one day on tv and sprinted with them each time the gate dropped, that was one of the best workouts I've ever had on a spinning bike.

I don't worry about putting on too much muscle over the winter. I'm not a racer, I just ride to get miles and burn calories with an ever changing view.

i've said it before, but the only option to keep me sane for indoor training is variety. over the winter my aim is general fitness, as opposed to cycling specific fitness. i put in a lot of meters on the concept 2 rower. swim at the gym as often as i can. ride my fixed gear bike on the rollers or my old steel trek on the turbo trainer. treadmill time zoning out to NPR podcasts is coveted time in the winter. pushups and crunches round it all out. too much of any one thing drive me too nuts to keep up.

Good lord. You guys are tough SOBs.

I have an indoor trainer, an older Kurt Kinetic model. I hate it. I've found it useful for only two things - recovery rides and VO2 intervals. I don't have the mental fortitude to do anything else indoors. I can do super easy or super short and hard.

Thankfully I live somewhere it's warm enough that even when it's cold I can go outside and ride. I'm not sure what I'd do if I lived in a place with real winters. Maybe I'd start short track skating. That looks like a blast.

Unless you are training for a specific objective it's nuts to not mix it up in the winter with varied activities. I'm all in for a TT race season that starts in March so no choice other than to train indoors all winter.

Well, there is always a choice, but y'all know what this is about.

If I lived in a location with CX country skiing would skate ski all winter with just enough indoor riding to stay adapted to the bike. Someday.

Doof's solution is a very good one to keep from wearing out good equipment. I sweat a ton and take pains to keep the bikes clean and avoid corrosion effects. Have seen others literally destroy their race bikes in one winter not paying attention to the effects of sweat.

Any VS'ers with hands on A vs B vs C with Computrainer, Wahoo, other? Am very interested in ease of use for the non-tech oriented person.

-Mark

Sufferfest - Only way I've ever been able to keep myself motivated on the trainer for longer than 40 minutes. Keeps things interesting. Worlds better than the CTS DVDs of yore. Trainerroad is really nice as well, for some reason having my power up on the same screen helps.

I’m way over on the old fashioned sweat box side.

I have a very cluttered apartment, so riding the trainer requires a lot of preparation:
-fold up the rug and throw it in the hall
-Lay down my old “go for the gold” beach towel from high school
-Open the kitchen and living room windows to get some air flow going
-pull the fan out from under the table and point towards trainer area
-Wrap wool sock around handlebars so my old swiss army watch can be attached
-Set up old Cyclops Fluid 2 trainer and bike
-turn on stereo and open glass door 45 degrees so the remote works from a bad angle (signal bounces off glass I think)
-text ‘sorry dude, riding trainer’ to my downstairs neighbor if he’s home
-ride trainer

I usually do one of 2 workouts: 2x20, which is 90 minutes total with a good long warmup and 10-min cool down, or 3x10 over/unders, which are shorter but harder and 75 minutes total. I like 2x20 because it’s mentally very difficult, and I think that counts for something. If you can suffer through that, it makes suffering on the road seem easier.

I don’t mind the trainer. Once the endorphins start flowing, and you turn the music up… I don’t know, it ain’t boring. I don’t watch tv or vids, sometimes I close my eyes, and just concentrate on pedaling circles or breathing or whatever. Total uninterrupted focus.

Okay, so I do have now some direct experience with both the Wahoo KICKR and the Computrainer. This could get rambling so I apologize in advance.

I really don't like indoor training it sucks about like staring at a wall for hours on end, I typically try to ride outside down to eh I dunno 10ish degrees if the wind isn't awful as it can be here in Nebraska. Sometimes though, like a long work day won't allow for me to get outside before dark and riding alone on the road after dark isn't a thing I'm willing to try. So the trainer comes into play.

Computrainer
I have owned a computrainer for some several years now 2010 maybe. What I liked about it was the fact I could use it in ergo mode or "race" somebody else. What I didn't like was the trainer stand, maybe I'm just bad at putting bikes in trainers, I dunno. It never played nice with the Look 595 I have and was always a production to get the bike on it. Once there, that bike whatever one was in it would stay for some period of time. The controller was fine in of itself but it was bulky. I found myself more often than not just using the controller and no computer if I had specific work to do at wattage or what have you. I really wished that computrainer would open up the protocol and let others play which is what they are doing now, several years too late. The worst thing about the computrainer was it still felt a hell of a lot like riding a trainer. Stop riding for a second speed is gone and you're starting over. Bad older GUI's etc aside that was probably the thing that made me wonder if there was something else.

Wahoo KICKR
The Wahoo KICKR intrigued me because of a couple things. Firstly, it looked like a Lemond Revolution. Secondly, it was open to 3rd party software/developers on large scale and was easy to control without being hooked with wires into a computer. So last winter I bought one, work got in the way life got in the way I got fatter and it sat like a shiny toy I hoped to use. Fast forward 12 months several life changes to the better later I'm riding again, a lot in fact and it was time to see what this wahoo kickr could do. So I removed my bike's rear wheel and placed it into the trainer in about 1 minute it was ready to roll. I linked it to the ipad and used at first the wahoo software that is free and used the utility app to calibrate it in a way that is very similar to how you calibrate the computrainer. It was fine and adequate but it wasn't necessarily much different than what the computrainer could do other than you could not pedal for a second and coast to adjust move etc and not be at a standstill. I then tested out kinomap and that was fine but climbing hills was climbing hills and the scenery was pretty but I didn't feel that different than watching an old tour video or movie. I have tried the strava segments app and its okay but I wouldn't spend the 29.99 again, I don't think it is that accurate in grades on known routes and its still is strava "racing" albeit in a virtual way. Meh I've wasted more on bad tires and its a distraction for some days. The wahoo and I have really fallen into a groove using trainerroad, I like the workout interfaces the fact you can link things like (sufferfest which i need to try) and is a great structured way to get your time in the basement in. The trainer works seamlessly and I really really like it.


After riding the kickr I wouldn't go back to the computrainer and if I had to buy one at either price I would only look at a computrainer if it was priced significantly below the kickr. The more "real world" feel and ability to easily use apps/training software is great. I recommend it highly. The downsides are the cost obviously.

Thanks for reading all this!

I read DCRainmaker's blog pretty regularly and he loves the KICKR. It's good stuff.

I want to know: does anyone have a good source for a Concept2? I don't really care to go to the gym and if I'm going to spend my time in the basement getting sweaty, I kinda want to work the entire body over.

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Originally Posted by ThomasRZ

I read DCRainmaker's blog pretty regularly and he loves the KICKR. It's good stuff.

I want to know: does anyone have a good source for a Concept2? I don't really care to go to the gym and if I'm going to spend my time in the basement getting sweaty, I kinda want to work the entire body over.

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After the CrashB races they sell tons of the slightly used.

With the KiCKR I like the fact that you can put a nice bike on it and hammer without being worried it will ruin your bike, same with the Lemond thing. I had a computrainer for years, did not use it much and sold it at a big loss. Of course I can ride outside pretty much year rounds which makes a big difference.

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Originally Posted by Lionel

With the KiCKR I like the fact that you can put a nice bike on it and hammer without being worried it will ruin your bike, same with the Lemond thing. I had a computrainer for years, did not use it much and sold it at a big loss. Of course I can ride outside pretty much year rounds which makes a big difference.

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What trainer are you concerned would ruin your bike?

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Originally Posted by boxerboxer

What trainer are you concerned would ruin your bike?

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All trainers that clamp the rear dropout from the outside (ie almost all of them). IIRC Nick Crumpton was one of the builder who commented here before that putting one of his bike into one of these is not a good idea.

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Originally Posted by Lionel

All trainers that clamp the rear dropout from the outside (ie almost all of them). IIRC Nick Crumpton was one of the builder who commented here before that putting one of his bike into one of these is not a good idea.

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Is this only a issue with carbon, or does that include steel and AL?

Not sure but it also depends on what you do on the trainer. Sprints are putting a lot of stress on the stays atmo.

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Originally Posted by Lionel

All trainers that clamp the rear dropout from the outside (ie almost all of them). IIRC Nick Crumpton was one of the builder who commented here before that putting one of his bike into one of these is not a good idea.

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The dropouts still seem to clamped stationary to the trainer base. Any weight shifts by the rider are going to concentrate strain in that dropout area, no?

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Originally Posted by Lionel

All trainers that clamp the rear dropout from the outside (ie almost all of them). IIRC Nick Crumpton was one of the builder who commented here before that putting one of his bike into one of these is not a good idea.

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The only problem is you don't see a lot of cases of people posting stories of my trainer broke my frame. I don't think I can see how the stress transfer from the wahoo is that different than a traditional trainer. I agree with Jeffrey

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lionel

All trainers that clamp the rear dropout from the outside (ie almost all of them). IIRC Nick Crumpton was one of the builder who commented here before that putting one of his bike into one of these is not a good idea.

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My head tells me it's probably fine, but if I had a Crumpton my heart wouldn't let me put it in a trainer.

Hell will freeze over before either of my Crumptons find themselves on a trainer. Serotta Legend ST is getting put on the Kickr tomorrow.

I don't see how the Kickr would be any different on a frame stress-wise. The trainer interfaces and locks in at the same point on a frame, the rear dropouts.

For short stuff on the BKOOL I've been amusing myself with their video segments. It's neat when they put a camera on a motorcycle and ride a race course. The downhills through the corners are a hoot. For a little longer stuff I used their phone app to record local routes and then re-ride them down cellar. I haven't ridden any other of the VR trainers but I do have a feeling that some of the grade transitions are a little more abrupt than what I feel on the road, but not like their binary or something. If it keeps me cranking out the hours when I can't get outside then its good enough for me.

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Originally Posted by bgav

I don't see how the Kickr would be any different on a frame stress-wise. The trainer interfaces and locks in at the same point on a frame, the rear dropouts.

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I've been thinking about this. In normal operation the quick release will apply pretty even pressure on the dropout face around the circumference of the contact area. The pressure comes from the tension on the skewer

If clamping pressure comes from the outside and the cam and the nut are held stationary, there could be some uneven crushing forces created on the dropout face. Maybe that would be a problem for carbon dropouts.

I'd like to read what Nick said if anyone can throw me a pointer. I'm not an engineer and I'm not arguing the point. I'm just curious and I never put a nice bike in a trainer anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ThomasRZ

I read DCRainmaker's blog pretty regularly and he loves the KICKR. It's good stuff.

I want to know: does anyone have a good source for a Concept2? I don't really care to go to the gym and if I'm going to spend my time in the basement getting sweaty, I kinda want to work the entire body over.

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Keep an eye out on Craigslist. Crossfit gyms come and go on a weekly basis there are always some available here.

I've heard that the eMotion folks are working on a Computrainer like power module for their rollers. Best of both worlds if this come to market. Combined with TrainerRoad or similar software and it's as close to riding outside as you can get. And no additional frame stresses from being clamped at the dropouts.

Thanks for the heads up on that Glen. Some information on the inside ride website. Looks like a few units out for early beta testing and a projection of production units mid next year if things go well.

I'm and avid eMotion rider and this will be a very nice addition to the system. Between the eMotions and my Concept 2 rower might never leave the pain cave.

-Mark

Computrainer user here. Have used it with real course videos and Erg Videos in years past.

This year I'm trying out the Kinomap trainer software combined with a Raspberry Pi box. Allows me to control the computrainer with an iphone or ipad. Will be able to ride a huge library of videos and even create my own with my Sony action cam with GPS.

Seems like there are a few new apps to control the computrainer. This really breathes life into a great piece of hardware.

Freaking BKOOL phone app will kick your ass for the fun of it. Many of my loops go in and out of town on the same road, on one it decided an 8% hill is a sustained 23% but it does relax to 17% for the top. Dirty trick, but in the scheme of what I'm trying to do not a bad thing.

From my post on the General board:

I just sold a LeMond Revolution for a KICKR. First ride was yesterday but I'm familiar with the trainer from athletes I coach who use it.

Compared to the LeMond, it's got a touch less inertia (my favorite thing about that trainer) but is so much more quiet that I'd probably prefer it even without the electronic stuff. Much better "road feel" than a Computrainer or a Cycleops Fluid.

I will have 2 of them here at the house so I can take clients through interval workouts while I join in.

The potential of this thing is pretty limitless. It's what a Computrainer (I have a ton of experience with them) should have evolved into, if The Racermate folks had cared to pay attention to the market. Direct drive trainers are the future; open architecture is necessary in today's market.

I am trying the PerfPro software now; it is similar to Trainer Road but much more tweakable. Can control 3 trainers at once, too, with the home version of the program (there is a studio version too to control many more units at once).

That Kickr is tempting