Framebuilding in Bike shop or other places with people traffic?

How many of you have built in a bike shop? Or your frameshop has a customer area?

I have just put together a dedicated area in the back of the bike shop, workbench, etc. Something I thought I would do last winter and really get going, but had other things in life decide I should wait a while.

Right now I am just hand mitering, lug work, prep, etc. at the shop, and brazing at home. I have concerns, Questions about brazing and doing the full build process at the shop. I am a long way from actually building a frame, much less building frames on a regular basis. But when I do get to that point I would like to build at the shop, having an area in the back room set up just for it. Maybe even have a window in the back wall where people can watch while they are in the shop, I can always pull the curtain if someone is a distraction.

The shop is in a strip mall, we have a hair salon next door, we have people coming in and out of the bike shop. Do you feel there is any real reason to not have oxy/acetylene tanks in this setting, doesnt a muffler shop, tire shop, etc. in a strip mall also have them. legally or morally? What about having people being able to see what is going on, I can find info on osha's websit in regards to welding where other people can see and the need for a curtain, or shielding of some sort, but no info on brazing. Should I make sure that no one can see the area while brazing, What are your guys and gals thoughts on this. Have any of you brazed in a shop, where customers where around?

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Originally Posted by sam

How many of you have built in a bike shop? Or your frameshop has a customer area?

I have just put together a dedicated area in the back of the bike shop, workbench, etc. Something I thought I would do last winter and really get going, but had other things in life decide I should wait a while.

Right now I am just hand mitering, lug work, prep, etc. at the shop, and brazing at home. I have concerns, Questions about brazing and doing the full build process at the shop. I am a long way from actually building a frame, much less building frames on a regular basis. But when I do get to that point I would like to build at the shop, having an area in the back room set up just for it. Maybe even have a window in the back wall where people can watch while they are in the shop, I can always pull the curtain if someone is a distraction.

The shop is in a strip mall, we have a hair salon next door, we have people coming in and out of the bike shop. Do you feel there is any real reason to not have oxy/acetylene tanks in this setting, doesnt a muffler shop, tire shop, etc. in a strip mall also have them. legally or morally? What about having people being able to see what is going on, I can find info on osha's websit in regards to welding where other people can see and the need for a curtain, or shielding of some sort, but no info on brazing. Should I make sure that no one can see the area while brazing, What are your guys and gals thoughts on this. Have any of you brazed in a shop, where customers where around?

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it's not a moral issue at all atmo. zoning, yes - but that's it.

My guess is that if you're welding or brass brazing, you wouldn't want people staring at the work while you're welding/bazing, but if you're silver brazing, it's a non-issue.

You will need a decent exhaust system or the smell will permeate the building. People who don't understand what's involved with metal working don't usually understand the smell either.

Foreign smells are often assumed to be harmful and where the smell of the burning flux soon to be coming from your shop is no worse to breathe than the perm solution from the salon next door folks are at least familiar with the wretched smell of hair melting solution and not generally alarmed by it. They will not feel the same about torch smell.

You can do a lot with a $40 bath fan and $20 of flexible aluminum dryer ducting.

I'll just add that the mall (and/or it's insurance co) might have restrictions about storage of haz materials. The local fire dept might need notification. This isn't worth pissing off the landloard or your fellow merchants.

When I had my shop the presence of frame building tools helped with the credibility with the "cool" cyclists. But the distractions of a retail shop meant that the actual work (that needed undivided attention) went of after hours. Andy.

If you're welding, you'll want some sort of curtain or wall between the weld area and the customer area. Welding supply stores will have dark plastic curtains that block all uv and most of the visible light, but you can still see through a bit. Keep in mind that the light will reflect off everything, so don't just build a little booth with white drywall.
Brazing, even bronze isn't that big of a deal. It's not bright enough to blind people, but bright enough that people won't look for very long.
Good luck, I hate having an audience while I work.

As said before, it's up to zoning and lease agreements.

There are a lot of people in-n-out of my shop, some for me, some for others. For most people who actually want to get stuff done, having gawkers every 5 minutes saying "hey... what are you doin' " isn't the best environment. You'll get good at kindly asking people to leave (you alone).

Pick a place that you want to be, then work there. Not simply what is available.

Thanks for the replys, brazing only no welding. I have a back room, people wont have access to me or the area, only a window where they can look, the window is about 20' from where the brazing will be done, right now I am just practicing at home but would like to move the tanks to the shop because I can get more done there, especially with the winter season where I have a couple hours downtime everyday.
I know that some businesses like a muffler shop as already mentioned would have a cutting torch, and in a retail building. So I know it is possible it can be OK. I also already know to check my lease, zoning, fire department, etc. I know there are a few builders around the USA who are building out of a bike shop, I wonder if they are just doing it under the radar, or did they jump through a bunch of hoops. For more clarification in regards to zoning does anyone have issues with being classified a manufacture- and having to be in a building zoned as industrial, I was more thinking of checking the zoning in regards to having the tanks, I have always thought of framebuilding as more of artwork, but will the MAN deem it industrial?
thanks again

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Originally Posted by sam

For more clarification in regards to zoning does anyone have issues with being classified a manufacture- and having to be in a building zoned as industrial, I was more thinking of checking the zoning in regards to having the tanks, <cut>

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framebuilding will typically be seen as manufacturing and/or metal fab. whether you weld or not, it won't matter to the local zoning board.

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Originally Posted by sam

I have always thought of framebuilding as more of artwork,<cut>

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why is that atmo?

Yes - you will be seen as light industrial. I did the entire "cottage industry" thing, and if you do be ready to throw tons of money, time, paperwork and frustration at it. As the head guy at the county said - "by the time this in done you'll know all our names"
It's for the safety of us all. Just google acytelene explosion & get back to us.
- Garro.

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Originally Posted by e-RICHIE

why is that atmo?

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I look at a lot of things, potters, metal sculpters, leather workers, gunsmiths, etc. and I think of a simialr way. Even a painter by some rough definition is manufacturing something. I see the one-off custom builder in addition to a bike manufacture also as an artist, at the same time I recognize a larger scale of bike production as an industrial object. I have seen on the different forums where a couple builders got themselves deemed a metalworking artist to avoid certain issues. In the end I do know by the true definition it is industrial, I just think it is more then that.

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Originally Posted by steve garro

Yes - you will be seen as light industrial. I did the entire "cottage industry" thing, and if you do be ready to throw tons of money, time, paperwork and frustration at it. As the head guy at the county said - "by the time this in done you'll know all our names"
It's for the safety of us all. Just google acytelene explosion & get back to us.
- Garro.

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Steve thanks, I was hoping to here some info about someome who tried to jump through the hoops and hear what they went through, so it helps. In regards to googling explosion, I have been aware of those things for some time, that is the real reason for this question. If it were not for the tanks, I would just be practicing at the shop, it is the tanks that I really had the questions about. I see a few builders doing it, I can think of 3 business in my area all in a retail building, a tire shop, a muffler shop, and a plumbers shop that all have tanks in there building- So it made me say hey maybe it is ok if I do as well.

I guess for now I will just continue the way I am, to play it safe. And if the time comes to ever start building frames on a regular basis I will figure out what to do then.
thanks again to all

Personally I really enjoy being in the shop either by myself or only the other builders in the shop. Often I don't listen to the radio and try not to be distracted by anything, so I don't think I'd enjoy building in a bike retail shop especially in season. Also, you may not want the whole thing to turn into a wax museum kind of thing either. You could always have a video that shows "what goes on in the back room" highlights reel.. My experience as a bike mechanic is that people are going to walk back there anyway regardless.

But on the other hand there is a pretty classic precedent for doing so.

I have to disagree with you about the artist thing tthough. I feel that Artists make art and Bike Builders make bikes. It's OK.

Good luck with your shop whatever you choose!

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Originally Posted by sam

a tire shop, a muffler shop, and a plumbers shop that all have tanks in there building

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Yes - but they are likely in areas that are zoned for industrial or light industrial. Please check with the regs for a given locale before you go full on & just set up. It's best to be transparent for these kinds of things as I know people who have had to gut their entire operation when the city inspectors caught wind of what they are doing - they were notified by neighbors as they were worried by the din of grinding and the fumes.
Also, who wants to hang out in any of those spots? nobody. as soon as you are known for building bikes people will want to hang out. Rust rings on your alignment table gets old quick as does dropped expensive tools. YRMV. I tell everyone no visitors before 4PM.
There are precedents - Rody @ Groovy had his whole shop burn down once & Dave Porter not only set himself & his shop on fire resulting in some truly horrible burns but lost use of an eye as well.
- Garro.

Sam, You might want to consider using propane in the shop. I think is it generally viewed by officials with less concern than acetylene. You could also avoid oxygen tanks by using an oxygen generator. Rio Grand jewelry sells them specially made for brazing instead of the type that keeps grandma alive. Some city ordinances prevent acetylene sales to residential areas but not propane because many voters want to do barbecues in their back yard. I prefer acetylene to propane but I an make the adjustment in about 30 seconds when I am using propane in Ukraine.

Also I think it helps to keep in perspective when explaining your situation to city officials that the primary purpose of your business is the sales and service of bicycles and accessories. Incidentally as a hobby - when you have a little free time in your shop - you want to occasionally braze using propane tanks as a heat source – the same propane tanks used in barbecues stoves and bought at the local hardware or grocery store. Your purpose for contacting them is that you want to make sure it is safe to do this in your location. That you want to know what kind of and how many fire extinguishers need to nearby and how far way any flammable materials should be. I don't think this is misdirection but rather just a sensible way to keep their minds on the true concern of safety. Most people don't realize what it takes to make a bicycle frame and as a result don't understand it is much more like a handmade craft using hand tools than anything related to manufacturing. You will make a few a year and not many in a week. Misunderstanding of the nature of what you are doing may make them think some city regulations require "manufacturing" to be done in industrially zoned areas or who knows what.

When Herbie and I did brazing demonstrations with oxyacetylene at the Heartland Velo show in Madison WI, the fire marshals were very reasonable to deal with during our pre-show demonstrations for them. They wanted to make sure the tanks were of a small size and all flammable materials and onlookers were 10 feet away behind a simple barricade.

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Originally Posted by JimFrain

I have to disagree with you about the artist thing tthough. I feel that Artists make art and Bike Builders make bikes. It's OK.

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Nicely put.

FBs use artifice to produce artefacts. Is that art?

My rough definition of art is "a conscious attempt to deny the meaninglessness of existence". By that definition, it isn't art

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Originally Posted by Mark Kelly

Nicely put.

FBs use artifice to produce artefacts. Is that art?

My rough definition of art is "a conscious attempt to deny the meaninglessness of existence". By that definition, it isn't art

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Then by definition there can be no art?

We're falling into a bottomless pit trying to define art.

"An expression of emotion or feeling rendered in an object, prose or melody."

And this doesn't begin to take into the consideration of the viewer's perspective. Andy.

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Originally Posted by Dorman

Then by definition there can be no art?

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I don't see why you say that, indeed if there was no art there would be no need to define it.

effbuilding is a craft, and I see nothing wrong with that. Saying it is art is like saying that bricklaying is art.

I've built bikes in a bike shop, and I wouldn't recommend it.

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Originally Posted by EricKeller

Saying it is art is like saying that bricklaying is art.

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Bricklaying IS an art. Just take on a square dome. it's harder then framebuilding by my reckoning, having done both. The school to be a bricklayer is quite exhaustive, at least to become bonded. - Garro.

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Originally Posted by steve garro

Bricklaying IS an art. Just take on a square dome. it's harder then framebuilding by my reckoning, having done both. The school to be a bricklayer is quite exhaustive, at least to become bonded. - Garro.

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I wasn't denigrating bricklaying. Last time I tried to hire a mason, they were too busy to call me back. I was not happy up on the chimney pouring a new cap.

I suppose the meaning of the word "craft" has been diluted too much -- saying something is a craft doesn't doesn't mean it's easy. On the contrary, it means it requires skill

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Originally Posted by EricKeller

I suppose the meaning of the word "craft" has been diluted too much -- saying something is a craft doesn't doesn't mean it's easy. On the contrary, it means it requires skill

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Well, craft stores are full of hot glue guns, cloth, beads, baskets and fake flowers. Crafts in grade school consists of sticking roughly cut pieces of "construction" paper together with Elmer's glue. They don't even have to teach 5 yr olds how to do it, just give them safety scissors and turn them loose. I'd say that people who work in a trade craft are just about the only ones left who know what the word used to mean.

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Originally Posted by edoz

Well, craft stores are full of hot glue guns, cloth, beads, baskets and fake flowers. Crafts in grade school consists of sticking roughly cut pieces of "construction" paper together with Elmer's glue. They don't even have to teach 5 yr olds how to do it, just give them safety scissors and turn them loose. I'd say that people who work in a trade craft are just about the only ones left who know what the word used to mean.

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Ever since the start of the industrial revolution, industry has been trying to devalue craft. That sticking cutout photos from magazines and glitter on MDF tissue box covers with clag is now what people think of when they hear the word craft is proof, to me, that industry has won.

Art has similarly been devalued. Art isn't allowed to have function beyond the aesthetic, or else it upsets industry. So artists are stuck squeezing preprepared paint out of tubes and smearing it on store-bought canvases.

I prefer the word artisan myself, it hasn't (yet) been sullied.

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Originally Posted by suzyj

I prefer the word artisan myself, it hasn't (yet) been sullied.

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How about "tradesman"
- Garro.

the labels are for others to use and abuse atmo.

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Originally Posted by steve garro

How about "tradesman"
- Garro.

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Even better, "tradesperson".

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Originally Posted by suzyj

I prefer the word artisan myself, it hasn't (yet) been sullied.

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Maybe if you don't read BSNYC.

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Originally Posted by suzyj

Even better, "tradesperson".

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I stand rightfully corrected and concur as well.
- Garro.

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Originally Posted by e-RICHIE

the labels are for others to use and abuse atmo.

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Indeed, especially if we are reducing art to paint by number and craft to 5th graders with glue. Label yourself as you will, but lets not look at the lowest accepted form of anything.

What a bunch of cranky frame builders we lot are.*


*Take that, grammar.

Back on topic- and forgive me if this has been covered:

-If its cool with your zoning, insurance, landlord, and the hoops are jump-able it seems feasible
-If you don't mind working while talking or having your shoulder looked over, it could work.

My biggest concern would be separating the dirty work area (acetylene soot, brass dust and metal shavings are all pretty invasive) with a clean retail area, and making sure you had the flexibility to transition between the two. I'd hate to walk out of frame builder mode to pull back stock of white Assos bibs for a customer without a pretty thorough scrub and costume change.

I think it could be a nice thing for the shop, but I imagine the "real work" of frame building part would happen after hours or require a front person to do the retail shop stuff and a builder in the back. As one guy, I would have an easier time doing both well by not overlapping them at the same time (even if both activities took place at the same address).