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Someone on CL has a Smith 23-5004A torch/regulator/hose/tip set (this one Smith 23-5004A ) an O2 tank, and an Acetylene tank (with bonus acetylene-only torch) for $200. The set is new in packaging. Tanks are used and the seller has no idea if they are current on testing.
Would this set be appropriate for framebuilding (perhaps with the addition of a more appropriate tip)?
Thanks
Pete
The Smith Quickbraze torch handle does not really work well for brazing bicycle frames. Many years ago (before online advice was available) - after looking at its pretty picture in the Smith catalog - I ordered one and it was a waste of money. I finally gave it to one of my friends that could use it for making jewelry. The length of the tips are too short to keep the light body from overheating when doing a lug braze or brass joint. You can kinda do braze-ons with it but not better than with the Smith torch handle you really want - the AW1A. Other good options are the Victor J-28 or Harris 15-3. These lighter "aircraft" style of torch handles allow more freedom and precision of hand movement than their bigger brothers (that are designed for use with cutting attachments). Students sometimes bring their own torch handles to class but will never use a heavier one again after trying an aircraft style of torch combined with Kevlar hoses.
OK, Doug, thanks. That's just what I was looking for.
I took the advice of Wade at Cycle Design and went with a Purox W-200. They are currently under the ESAB brand. I like the torch, but of course the only thing I can compare it to is my uncle's larger heavy Smith torch. I don't have lightweight hoses, and would advocate for those as most of the weight I have to deal with is the hoses - they're stiff and awkward. Not that it's excessive, but it would be nice to reduce that minor annoyance.
I haven't actually assembled a frame, only practiced with brass on tube chunks, so take my advice with a grain of salt.
Victor FC100, baby! - Garro.
Don't forget the little J40's. Sweet, lighter then a Meco, virtually unchanged since the 30's and tips available at every LWS in NA.
Shown here with the already diminutive Smith AW1A(about the same size and weight as the J-28 at 8.5 oz):
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4128/...8a6f18c0e2.jpg
That FC100 is 14oz (for comparison), and is much more widely available on the used market.
Anybody using Harris stuff?
I've got one of those silver jobbies never taken out of the box - too small fo my hands - I wear XXl gloves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Estlund
Good to have backup shit. I have two FC 100's. You like the forward knobs / aircraft style. E.? - Garro.
My first torch was an FC-100, and I still like it, but now it's mostly relegated to home for bigger jobs (cutting, automobile, etc.) with the single-stage regs and hoses that came in its kit. For brazing I prefer the size of the J-28, with 2-stage regs and lightweight hoses, but a bike can be built fine with any of them. My hands are only XL, and I've considered wrapping the handle with bar-tape to give it some girth, but it's not important enough to have ever done it, and I just pick the torch up without thinking about it much. The aircraft style forward knobs are nice enough, but I never found them to be as advantageous as others seem to sing about. I try to set the flame correctly and use it until I turn it off. When I do want to adjust the flame, it just isn't that hard to do with the other hand. I think the weight and stiffness of the hoses have the greatest effect on ease of movement.Quote:
Originally Posted by steve garro
FC100 here also.
Yep. I've been going big & hard with a #3 more & more. Nice to have a torch that stays cool. I bought a new #1 tip as it was getting a "flat" flame from yrs of cleaning the tip, but when I got a new #1 it was a thin, thin flame leading me to believe that I have cleaned it out to around a #2 after a few hundred frames from bumping up from a #0 to a #1 uummm.....maybe six yrs ago - Garro.Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Ryan
Hold it behind the knobs and onto the hoses- gives you a lot of flexibility. With the beating your hands and wrists take it's probably worth giving it a shot. Brazing a bike doesn't take vey long, but every little bit helps. I can't imagine your hands on an AW1A are any larger then my size 9's on a J40. I hold that between my thumb and index finger.Quote:
Originally Posted by steve garro
The forward knobs are nice in that I never change my settings with my wrist accidently. Not a big deal on a 6" body- the AW10a is the same thing with rearward knobs. The on-the-fly adjustment was a bigger deal when i was doing 8 a day- now I just like the size. I still use standard hoses- I didn't find the lightweight ones did anything for me, and I an hold onto the big ones.
I schlep this photo out about once a year- it's a little pistol grip I made when I was having some ulner nerve issues. I could just rest the torch in my had and braze from the shoulder. The hose wrap took all the weight off my wrist. I pretty much do the same thing now, but with the J40 as my main torch and no wrap. The AW1A I have on a dedicated silver line.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2268/...3bb69f4779.jpg
I like this idea. - Garro.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Estlund
Splitters at the regs, one line goes to the gas fluxer/ gas saver/ J40, the other straight to the AW1A. I can use the pilot to spark it up and have a silver tip/ torch without in-line flux and them my big hit/ brass (tiny body) torch for fillets, etc. If I get really crazy i'll use em both to preheat heavy crowns and then go in with which ever filler rod makes sense.
Ahhh- decadence.
I learned on a torch that was as big as my forearm, so anything will work in a pinch. I never really notice the heat in the AW1A body unless I'm welding, which is stupid to do with that torch anyway. I definitely should get a bigger torch for that. The machine shop here at work has quick disconnects on the tanks and 3 torches, it's a pretty slick setup.
Yup- in reality any body will do the trick. So long as you are working in the smaller end of the tip spectrum (and even that is debatable) you should be ok.
I have four or five torches....um, can't remember. Each my favorites for something or other. I have a mid sized Meco Weldmaster I like for lugs. A Henrob 2000 that is a heavy beast but great for fillets, a jewlers smith and a Meco aviator jet.
I had a smith AW1A but I will say that the torch body got hot even under normal use. Funny thing though is my Meco Aviator is lighter, easier to maneuver and never gets hot at all, even under heavier use. I have quick releases on the big torches so I can change them in seconds even with the gas on. The little guys are permanently connected. Eric's setup is sweet and a lot like mine.
I like having the knobs up and out of the way. I notice that is a lot less prone to accidentally changing your settings which happens a lot with padawans.
If I only had one though I would probably go with the Meco Aviator (I realize they are defunct and hard to find) . You can run big or small with it and it is so much better designed than the smith it really isn't even in the same league IMHO
+1 on the AW1A. I love mine. My previous torch was a garage sale craftsman that got pretty hot under normal use. Contrary to DB's experience I've found that the AW1A does not. I have two tips for it, a 203 and 206. I mostly use the 206 for fillets and lugs and the 203 for braze-ons and other delicate stuff. It takes about 5 seconds to switch tips.
The Smith is an good torch and probably about as good as you can do today but I have had two and both exhibited the same issue. Mainly though I find having 25 dollar tips with integrated mixers to be flat stupid as far as a design goes. There is no reason to keep duplicating the mixer over and over again other than generating profits for Smith. Other torches just have you replace the actual tip. It costs less and is just as fast as the Smith to do. I like the chrome body but I am going to be a retro grouch and say they used to do it better.Quote:
Originally Posted by pereiracycles
But neither the Meco Midget nor the J-40 weigh enough, or are different enough, to matter (torch body 6oz vs 5.5oz). Actually, once the tips are attached my guess is that the J-40 is heavier, again, not that it's enough to matter.
I like the very long neck torch tip available for the Meco; it translates into a nice multiplier of my hand motion. Tiny movements yield large movements of the torch tip. I also like being able to grasp the body of the Midget and the valves, which look awfully poorly placed, but are actually perfect to my thumb and forefinger for one handed adjustment. The center of mass is in the hand, not a few inches out courtesy of overly beefy mixers and tips. Small points to be sure, and I doubt my brazing is better for it, but it's nice and since we're discussing it...
Never used a J-28 which is a fine torch, but much like the AW1A to the hand.
Selling my AW1A and accouterments to a guy at the office. I do like it's tool-less tip switch though.
Totally agree with Dave on this one: The Meco AvJet is head and shoulders nicer than the Smith, but difficult to find. Its a pre-WWII design. Fits the hands better, doesn't slip or rotate in the hands like the slippery Smith (it isn't round), runs cool, long length body and tips (see Midget long neck comment), light, nearly perfect valve placement/orientation (see Midget comment). I sold my AvJet quiver quite some time ago. Shoulda kept one just because. Too bad Victor/Thermadyne didn't keep that in production and drop the J-28 when they bought Meco. I never will figure that one out, well, actually as Jake Gittes said, "its about money". Aside from that, the J-28 vs the astonishing AvJet? No way it could be a remotely close horse race.
All that said, ever see what some of the other notable full timers use? Big heavy brass "irons", so probably not worth sweating the details too much. Each has our own fave, but a coin toss amongst any of the aircraft torches would yield a superb result.
Hi everyone,
even if a bit late, this post is for all those like me who have started without any guidance but with research and this fantastic forum have managed to build something that goes on two wheels at least straight.
I started with a Harris kit that for just over 400 euros provided me with everything I needed to set the garage on fire in less than an hour:
- Oxygen / Propane pressure regulators;
- security valves;
- 8mm twin tube;
- anti-return valves;
- torch 19-6;
- universal pressure mixer and N2 tip for Propane (140 l / h, more or less equivalent to a no.1 tip for acetylene, Doug?).
All of excellent quality and perfect for making the first worms.
All right up to the brazing course in Madrid with Arregui (absolute fantastic by the way).
Here I brazed for the first time with acetylene, with gas-fluxer, with a lighter torch (AW1A) and with the famous ultralight Kevlar® tubes.
For some time I felt the need to lighten my set-up for several reasons: improve the accuracy of the flame and alleviate the cramps I felt after hours of practice in the most uncomfortable positions.
So I decided to order the tubes from the USA that arrived in about a month (with € 23 in additional taxes) and the lightweight handle 15-4 of Harris and a flexible tip of 75 l / h. I really like the handle and I prefer it to the AW1A which seemed too slippery and prone to warm up.
The torch in Italy is only available with G 1/4 "connections; Kevlar tubes have "A" 3/8"-24 and "B" 9/16"-18 connections. The union of the two worlds isn't simple but not impossible either (the 3/8" USA is NOT the 3/8" EU).
There is a Harris 15-3 model with "A" attacks that seems impossible to import in Italy.
For the moment I can only say that the smallest tip is making me very happy: the flame is more concentrated even if I can keep the same flame speed as before. In addition, the tip is longer and thinner and the handle remains cold even with very high flame speed (or very low, if you think it's a matter of flow).
But now, the lighter flashlight makes the tube problem even more obvious. As soon as I can mount the famous ultralight tubes I will tell you.
Attachment 110044
Thanks everybody, you're precious.
Ciao.
Hi guys,
Hope this the correct space, I am looking to learn frame building and planning to start on lugged frame.
There is a cobra dhc 2000 torch set locally with I think a good price, will this be adequate for frame building?
Cheers,
Dave
Dave- I'm no expert with various torches but as I read a description of that torch it seems to me that it's not really designed for the low temp work that we do on our thin wall brazing. Besides the flame aspects , which I really don't know much about, I'll say that the pistol grip is not what most find "handy" (bad pun) and seems kind of bulky. Also it seems that the tip end isn't too far from where your hand will be. Last question I would have is the availability of different tips. Not knowing the included tips, and their resulting flame sizes, I cant speak with any assumptions, but with the more typical torch and tip designs we use the tip orifice diameters tend to range from .025" to ,060" with .040" to .050" being my most common diameters I use. The price I saw (just over $400 in the search result I pulled up) seemed to be a lot. I hope the one you are considering is a lot less. Andy
Dave,
What torch handle and tips are best for frame building has had a lot of subject threads over the years. To summarize most beginners prefer a light "aircraft" style like the Smith AW1A or Victor J-28 or Unweld 71 combined with a lighter hose. The Meco Midget with its box shaped body is another torch handle candidate that gets a stronger like or dislike than ones with round handles. In other words some love them and others don't. Pros can get outstanding results with almost anything because of their greater skills. Brazing requires subtle and quick hand motions so something light with hoses that don't restrict hand motions can help learners get better results.
For my frame building classes (I've been teaching them since the 70's) I have all four of those torch handles available for students to try out and see which one they prefer. This and many many other questions are answered in a class.
While pros have traditionally used oxyacetylene as fuel, amateurs have found that propane is more convenient to buy, easier to get for use in a non-industrial setting and much cheaper. An oxygen concentrator provides an almost endless and safer supply of oxygen. You can find more information about this in other subject threads in this forum.
Doug Fattic
Niles, Michigan
Erik gave me the best advice ever some years ago...Smith A1A with Kevlar hoses. Tips 001, 003, 005...Changed my world.
Thanks Erik