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Framebuilder or production line worker
Im not trying to start to much of a rant here, although I am ranting, hopefully it leads to a good conversation and not any fighting.
I know this is not anything new, but all the new builders,frames,and tools being put out by the novice in the last several months that has been catching my eye has me thinking about it. And notice I did say novice not hobbyist, there are several hobby builders who are great builders but for there own reasons dont do it for a living.
You can go to china and walk up and down the production line and learn every job and get very skilled at every job, but does that make you a framebuilder, no it just makes you a factory worker, nothing wrong with that, I started working at GM this spring as a way to offset some of my cost of doing business I can put the dash board in a van like a champ but I cant design a vehical, and I work with a lot of great factory workers- but lets face it GM is not going to come up to any of us and ask us to work on the next design.
Now lets say you take a framebuilding class, you learn every step, you buy a mill and a fixture for everystep, you go home and follow the ABC's step by step. Are you now a framebuilder or are you just a factory production line worker- working in a one many factory.
When I see newbies with only a handfull of frames getting websites and calling themselves a framebuilder, or buying a mill or an anvil journeyman for there first frame, building tools that are meant to overcome their lack of skills instead of developing those skills, or tools that are not thought out well due to their lack of understanding of the prosess, etc. It makes me think what drives us to become a framebuilder in the first place, and why do we make the decisions we do along the path, is it a lack of understanding, do we not believe our peers when they say learn "this" first.
These kind of things always pop in my head as I contemplate my own future as a "hopeful" framebuilder. I have taken it extra slow on purpose, I have avoided taking a class to early in the process and tried to get as much guidance from other framebuilders, thanks as always to those that have helped and you know who you are. I have been contemplating taking a class recently due to the fact that the second job makes me very cramped for time- but am still a little hesitant as I dont want to start building by numbers, step1,2,3,etc and would rather develop the skills, but it is hard to do on your own without someone to look over your shoulder and give a hands on example. All this always leads to the same questions.
should I become a framebuilder, or will I be just another guy watering down the system?
what do I offer, its not like I can redesign the wheel?
why would someone buy my frame, is my style that awesome haha?
Well not sure if I really had a point to this or not, just wanted to ramble I guess
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Re: Framebuilder or production line worker
Critical thinking is a component of the profession. If you can get it after a course, or being shown how a frame is made, or after just 6 or even 206 attempts, you can call yourself what you want. But I am not sure the experience behind this is enough to begin an independent career in the trade. I'm sure it's more than enough to end one though.
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Re: Framebuilder or production line worker
I decided I wanted to do this because of the design process. I needed to develop the skill to build. With those covered, I think I could call myself a framebuilder. But that, still, is no guarantee that I can scratch out some kind of income from the market. There's a whole 'nother set of skills to tap for that to happen.
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Re: Framebuilder or production line worker
enjoy the process.all steps of the process.I'd say the most undervalued skills are people skills, and marketing/selling skills.
as to tools. I have a factory full of fixtures. I use only hand tools because
a)It's quicker for the single operation I'm doing.
b)as my dad used to say:first you get good then you get fast.
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Re: Framebuilder or production line worker
-- always puts a smile on my face and a head shake in my heart..
over 40 years in the lubricants, chemical, care care products & sports marketing corporate life --- i still find myself wondering when i will reach that product knowledge / csi perfection plateau..
i have been the worst salesman and the first valovline hall of fame salesman --- marketing kudos and marketing failures --- lower management, executive management & shit management..
what makes me keep putting one foot in front of the other, looking ahead - not back, trying to gain more knowledge with the ability to transmit ---- "is knowing that i will never reach perfection, but a desire to improve my imperfection within my life-span" (plagiarize)..
ronnie with a smile
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Re: Framebuilder or production line worker
I say that I build frames but that i'm no frame builder these days. Only been that a couple of times when my pay was from my building frames.
But i continue because I love the sense of riding my own creation, the process of problem solving, the trying to better my skills/process.
I have great respect for those who can pay their bills doing this craft. Andy.
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Re: Framebuilder or production line worker
Why the existential angst?
I know people who work on frame production lines - they enjoy their job, and they can really nail it. Very few people will be able to lay down fillets like the Brompton brazers, for example. I know other people who are very good at designing bikes, but their welding looks like burnt popcorn.
Classes are good, but the key differentiator is whether you build on what you learned in the class. I didn't be come a framebuilder at a class, I became one afterwards in my garage when I practiced over and over building things.
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Re: Framebuilder or production line worker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sam
Im not trying to start to much of a rant here, although I am ranting, hopefully it leads to a good conversation and not any fighting.
I know this is not anything new, but all the new builders,frames,and tools being put out by the novice in the last several months that has been catching my eye has me thinking about it. And notice I did say novice not hobbyist, there are several hobby builders who are great builders but for there own reasons dont do it for a living.
You can go to china and walk up and down the production line and learn every job and get very skilled at every job, but does that make you a framebuilder, no it just makes you a factory worker, nothing wrong with that, I started working at GM this spring as a way to offset some of my cost of doing business I can put the dash board in a van like a champ but I cant design a vehical, and I work with a lot of great factory workers- but lets face it GM is not going to come up to any of us and ask us to work on the next design.
Now lets say you take a framebuilding class, you learn every step, you buy a mill and a fixture for everystep, you go home and follow the ABC's step by step. Are you now a framebuilder or are you just a factory production line worker- working in a one many factory.
When I see newbies with only a handfull of frames getting websites and calling themselves a framebuilder, or buying a mill or an anvil journeyman for there first frame, building tools that are meant to overcome their lack of skills instead of developing those skills, or tools that are not thought out well due to their lack of understanding of the prosess, etc. It makes me think what drives us to become a framebuilder in the first place, and why do we make the decisions we do along the path, is it a lack of understanding, do we not believe our peers when they say learn "this" first.
These kind of things always pop in my head as I contemplate my own future as a "hopeful" framebuilder. I have taken it extra slow on purpose, I have avoided taking a class to early in the process and tried to get as much guidance from other framebuilders, thanks as always to those that have helped and you know who you are. I have been contemplating taking a class recently due to the fact that the second job makes me very cramped for time- but am still a little hesitant as I dont want to start building by numbers, step1,2,3,etc and would rather develop the skills, but it is hard to do on your own without someone to look over your shoulder and give a hands on example. All this always leads to the same questions.
should I become a framebuilder, or will I be just another guy watering down the system?
what do I offer, its not like I can redesign the wheel?
why would someone buy my frame, is my style that awesome haha?
Well not sure if I really had a point to this or not, just wanted to ramble I guess
Here's my approach on the mundane......always learn what it is that I am doing and why. I've installed quite a few dashboards for various reasons over the years, many times all by myself. I always treat them as though someone is watching, inspecting, analyzing to make sure my work is clean and thorough. I'm always alone in my garage with an occasional dog walker peering into the garage. I don't think that is pointless and I try to maintain a consistant approach in all endeavors. Who knows, maybe some day someone will be watching, or may ask a question. I really wish Audi would ask me about their air shocks so I can tell them to shove their 12 point torx bits up their ass.
I didn't take a class, and was never taught the abc's. I absorbed a bit through forums, videos and reading. Then I started making my own. I practiced by making frames, not just cutting miters all day long. I made frames. Watched what worked, what didn't. Made some "bad" ones just to see how bad is bad and what bad looks like. I have acquired my own routines and out pops a frame based on what I learned making my frames.
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Re: Framebuilder or production line worker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sam
should I become a framebuilder, or will I be just another guy watering down the system?
what do I offer, its not like I can redesign the wheel?
why would someone buy my frame, is my style that awesome haha?
Just be true to yourself
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Re: Framebuilder or production line worker
You're working at the wrong auto manufacture. Go work for a company with an embedded culture of continuous improvement.
I worked for Honda in one of their manufacturing plants, time on the line in finally assembly and as a mass production buyer. Never once did I feel that "they" didn't want my feedback, that I was just a factory worker.
You'll only water down the system if you just go through the motions.
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Re: Framebuilder or production line worker
Quote:
I know this is not anything new, but all the new builders,frames,and tools being put out by the novice in the last several months that has been catching my eye has me thinking about it.
I see this as an effect of internet forums. The sharing of knowledge, methods, videos, etc. help grow the niche of frame building, but I think it helps simplify things too. I think back to about 1999 when I started building a frame jig. At that time finding information was almost impossible. The internet had maybe a handful of small grainy pics of massive frame jigs. Through a lot of trial and error I created a rather cumbersome and crude jig.
With the plethora of information, Flickr, blogs, etc. at our fingertips now, a lot of newcomers decide to quickly embark on their own. It appears to me that with all this info many can learn the methods and skip most of the trial and error or learning curve. However, this can either be a good or bad thing.
Darrel
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Re: Framebuilder or production line worker
I like the responses here, I was kinda afraid of someone getting pissy and we have not had any of that- think that just shows we got some good people here.
With 20 years in the industry, high quality mechanic, thousands of fittings, playing middle man for many customers custom frames, etc. and the fact that I have been contemplating framebuilding since 98 and working towards it for 3 years I actually have a good idea of what my goals are,why I want to do it,and how to justify my place in the business. Of course knowing what and why does not mean anything will come to fruition.
How to develop the skills however are always in flux,changing, different thoughts,etc. But one way or the other the skills will eventually get learned. However even if everything else if perfect I still know it does not mean success, I have been in the bike industry long enough to know that failure is more likely then success.
Really my post was more to stir the pot, to get new framebuilders thinking of there own place in this little world, Or there process, or the why at all. I am pretty critical of alot of things the bike industry, and I am 10 times more critical of anything I do in the industry as I never want to devalue my profession, so I was expressing the kind of questions I think to myself as I move along in the process, as long as I keep coming up with positive answers to my question then I will keep moving forward, when some of my question can no longer be answered in a positive way I will know that I dont need progess any further. I know that many other newbies have thought about the same stuff already and many have a better game plan then I do, but sometimes when I see someone argue with 10 experienced builders on a proven process I start to think did this guy really think this through.
I also think it is good if the professionals sit down every once in a while and ask themselves these kinds of questions, and Im sure many do. You know why you did it, but why do you still do it. Are you still doing your best. Is there still passion or is it just a job you hate at this point. I know at the bike shop I run through these thoughts all the time, especially when its time to renew my lease. I dont think this stuff because I have doubts, but it helps keep me on my toes, reminds me that I love what I do
While my post was playing devils advocate a little bit, I was also looking forward to hearing what drives some of you, and your thoughts on what I said, more info always helps.
thanks as always
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Re: Framebuilder or production line worker
Never understood the perspective of many sitting on the edges of the industry that frame building is all marshmallows and pink unicorns...
Earning a living from bicycle fabrication is just plain work.
This profession is undervalued and professionals attempting to earn a living wage have to compete with those willing to "learn" their way in, who charge less due to the starving artist sacrifice syndrome.
Success as a professional is inversely proportional to fabrication time...have a thoughtful business plan, learn customer relations/human dynamics, practice solid accounting principals, know that you are the product and represent accordingly, then produce the highest level of fabrication possible while continuing to strive for better efficiency.
Random thoughts...thanks for the impetus.
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Re: Framebuilder or production line worker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rody
Never understood the perspective of many sitting on the edges of the industry that frame building is all marshmallows and pink unicorns...
Earning a living from bicycle fabrication is just plain work.
This profession is undervalued and professionals attempting to earn a living wage have to compete with those willing to "learn" their way in, who charge less due to the starving artist sacrifice syndrome.
Success as a professional is inversely proportional to fabrication time...have a thoughtful business plan, learn customer relations/human dynamics, practice solid accounting principals, know that you are the product and represent accordingly, then produce the highest level of fabrication possible while continuing to strive for better efficiency.
Random thoughts...thanks for the impetus.
And much needed words too atmo.
Folks start too soon, that's all there is to it.
And for those who say there's nowhere to work, or learn, so they can in fact get a foot in the door: consider that a pulse on the industry you are interested in leaving for independence AFTER you finally have a clue what goes where.
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Re: Framebuilder or production line worker
Not sure if this has anything to do with what you asked but here it goes.
I am never done trying to improve my process and product. MANY of the things are lost on the common person and the end user but that does not stop me.
An example of me always trying to offer a better product is this. I no longer sell steel bikes. Unless you are an existing customer I won't build it or offer it. Why? Because my goal is to offer the best bike possible and for me that is a titanium bicycle. It is lighter, stronger and has properties that are just not available with steel. In turn I can not sell a product I feel is inferior so it is off the menu. I will potentially sell less bikes because of this decision. I am fine with that.
-Drew
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Re: Framebuilder or production line worker
[QUOTE=EnginCycles;561376]Not sure if this has anything to do with what you asked but here it goes.
I am never done trying to improve my process and product. MANY of the things are lost on the common person and the end user but that does not stop me.
An example of me always trying to offer a better product is this. I no longer sell steel bikes. Unless you are an existing customer I won't build it or offer it. Why? Because my goal is to offer the best bike possible and for me that is a titanium bicycle. It is lighter, stronger and has properties that are just not available with steel. In turn I can not sell a product I feel is inferior so it is off the menu. I will potentially sell less bikes because of this decision. I am fine with that.
-Drew
---------------------------
drew my friend,
as an ole 1/2 ass rider that smiles inside/outside just to be able to ride and enjoy ----
also being a consumer/end-user/customer --- i have owned, mounted and put many miles on high end ti and carbon bikes..
i prefer the ride of a steel lugged bike with the my own taste components.. i ride better, enjoy more, smile so large, and feel the wind in my hair and gravel in my gut.." maybe it's just the bike fits me!!
but, if we all liked blonde ladies or men ---- redheads, brunettes and hair-stylest would be history past..
not a handcrafted builder, just a --
ronnie with a smile
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Re: Framebuilder or production line worker
...and that is why we are blessed to have so many talented builders, so each individual may align with one who can facilitate the bike of their dreams.
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Re: Framebuilder or production line worker
[QUOTE=ron l edmiston;561436]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
EnginCycles
but, if we all liked blonde ladies or men ---- redheads, brunettes and hair-stylest would be history past..
I'd really like to meet you one day Ronnie - I picture you as a gentleman who creates a wake of smiles and happiness which follows you around wherever you go.
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Re: Framebuilder or production line worker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
EnginCycles
I no longer sell steel bikes.
If you're ever looking to unload a little of that unused steel tubing.....I can help. :)
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Re: Framebuilder or production line worker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DeeDub76
I see this as an effect of internet forums. The sharing of knowledge, methods, videos, etc. help grow the niche of frame building, but I think it helps simplify things too. I think back to about 1999 when I started building a frame jig. At that time finding information was almost impossible. The internet had maybe a handful of small grainy pics of massive frame jigs. Through a lot of trial and error I created a rather cumbersome and crude jig.
With the plethora of information, Flickr, blogs, etc. at our fingertips now, a lot of newcomers decide to quickly embark on their own. It appears to me that with all this info many can learn the methods and skip most of the trial and error or learning curve. However, this can either be a good or bad thing.
Darrel
Agree... I didn't have the internet as a frame building resource in 93' like I have today. I bought the Paterek and Talbot Manuals... and luckily had an apprenticeship... which I value the most now that I look back on the learning process. Seeing the way other builders make frames / solve problems via the web has definitely accelerated this learning process... but you still gotta take your lumps and make bikes one at a time to gain experience.
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Re: Framebuilder or production line worker
"This profession is undervalued and professionals attempting to earn a living wage have to compete with those willing to "learn" their way in, who charge less due to the starving artist sacrifice syndrome." - Rody
I made chocolate chip cookies last night, but this does not make me a baker. I even baked once for a bake sale at my daughters school where my cookies were sold for $$$, but this still does not make me a baker.
Rody's comment about "...those willing to "learn" their way in, who charge less..." reminds me much of my industry. I am a candy maker. The specialty side of our industry has suffered by what I call the "Food Network Effect", where the food industry has been glamorized to the point that people have taken to their home kitchens to produce candies at below market value in order to buy their piece of market share. When their demand grows to be greater than the capacity of their home kitchen, they are some how shocked by the fact that they cannot afford to buy equipment and pay rent for a commercial space, simply due to the fact that these costs were never calculated into their business model and therefore the reason they could sell their product so cheap.
For now I am just a guy who like to build frame(s) [still working on #1]. Like many, yes, I have the fantasy of being a frame builder. For now however, I have two kids for whom I need to save for college and someday I would like to retire. That being said, frame building will be my hobby. ~~~Fantasy~~~ Perhaps someday I will have built enough, learned enough, and loaned out my bikes enough to the point that someone asks me to build one for them. ~~~Back to reality~~~ Aside from a friends & family discount, I cannot see how one would not charge the full market rate for a frame to compensate for the skill, time and materials that go into making a frame.
This forum is amazing! My sincere thanks, to all those who post, professionals and hobbyists, from whom I have been able to learn. Once I get through the next few steps on my project and have a few more pictures, I will start contributing as well.
Mike Gordon
Highland Park, IL
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Re: Framebuilder or production line worker
"This profession is undervalued and professionals attempting to earn a living wage have to compete with those willing to "learn" their way in, who charge less due to the starving artist sacrifice syndrome."
I'm not aware of many jobs or businesses where newbies earn the same as seasoned professionals. Tenured professors make a lot more than assistant professors even though they appear to teach similar things. It's the years of experience and accumulated knowledge that distinguish you from the new people entering the field, and because of that you should be able to get more for your time. Theoretically at least, the tenured professor can draw upon a wealth of knowledge and experience that will make a much better class.
I would never consider trying to sell one of my frames (were I to hang out the shingle) for what Rody, Garro, etc. charge. But should I so I don't "undervalue" the better/elder builders and the profession as a whole? I don't get that. I agree that custom framebuilding is undervalued and most pros deserve to make more money per product, but if you can't sell your product to a customer because he/she picks a newcomer over you, it's not the newcomer's fault because they're charging a lower price. They're selling a completely different product, one with fewer years of experience, a smaller base of knowledge of design and geometry = a lesser product. It's your responsibility to charge what you deserve to be earning and use honest marketing to share why it's worth that amount. Maybe I'm naive, but customers can see through a nice paint job and appreciate what they're getting en sum.
New builders are not "starving artists," they should just charge less until they *deserve* to earn more, in my opinion. They should make up the difference in what they need to live by having another job. It's up to the builder to decide if that 'break in period' is something they can handle financially and psychologically. With more time and experience the time allotted per frame will come down because you become more proficient and efficient in your process. So even if you didn't raise the price of your product after 100, 500, 1000 frames, you should be making more money because you can whip out a superior frame in 2 days instead of 2 weeks time like at the beginning. You charge more when your product is worth more. Anyways, that's my take at least.
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Re: Framebuilder or production line worker
Whit,
as my quote was pulled out for comment, please allow me to expand on my thought, it may help clarify my perspective...
Frame builders who fabricate for a living are fighting an uphill battle in respect to how our work is perceived by the whole of society. As builders, we perceive the bicycle as a multi-form tool that satisfies many client needs; function, recreation/performance, aesthetics, and personal/emotional expectations. It is, however, a vehicle for transportation and must be crafted with all the care and precision that is required for the safety of it's operator. The assumption of this risk is placed squarely upon the shoulders of the fabricator, requiring experience and maturity from those that choose this career.
Those who are embedded in the cycling profession, whether wrenching in a shop, selling inventory, or crafting product, recognize and value the form. However, society as a whole still sees the bicycle as a toy. When I commented that I believe the profession of fabricating bicycles is undervalued, I am looking through those eyes.
Folks accept that highly skilled trades executed by professionals demand a certain level of monetary compensation. Plumbers, Electricians, auto mechanics, etc, have hourly shop/job rates that reflect the value of the work they do. Demographically these rates vary, but in my region it is not uncommon to see an hourly cost of $80-$150 per hour for these skilled trades. It is necessary work provided by a skilled tradesman.
Conversely, many frame builders have a difficult time requesting the fair monetary compensation that their level of skill deserves. It is not until they have solidified their place in the market, suffered through many storms that build experience, and learn to operate a business efficiently that many exhibit the confidence to set a living wage without feeling the necessity to justify it. Sustainability/Longevity is the measure of success.
It saddens me to see so many promising builders start up, only to leave a few short years later because of a lack of small business tools and market awareness. This cyclic renewal of participants is present in every trade, however, it certainly feels like we have a greater turnover, perhaps because the community is smaller.
Many entering this profession do so because they feel passionately about it, but have not invested the appropriate care and time in creating a sustainable business model and cultivating a market for their work. In order to keep the flame alive, many will scrape by in an attempt to keep following their passion...thus the starving artist. These practitioners ultimately fail, often leaving behind economic upheaval in the customer base, tarnishing the niche as a whole.
The trades mentioned earlier mandate education, experience, and certification before allowing one to venture out and begin a business, stacking the deck in favor of the new entrepreneur. I often feel that we create an ill defined path to success...we have limited educational opportunities, mentoring is done impersonally through 1's and 0's, and very little information queried and shared centers around small business tools vs. what torch/cutter/etc do you use.
Is it the responsibility of established fabricators to develop those who wish to learn? Morally, I believe an effort should be made. Many have accepted this moral responsibility and have contributed, "setting the table" for others to achieve the beginning steps to success. It is the responsibility of those accepting such information to wait until they are well prepared to hang out a shingle and become a "professional". If not, our niche as a whole will never achieve the level of professional value it deserves.
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Re: Framebuilder or production line worker
This is tee shirt material atmo -
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rody
Is it the responsibility of established fabricators to develop those who wish to learn? Morally, I believe an effort should be made. Many have accepted this moral responsibility and have contributed, "setting the table" for others to achieve the beginning steps to success. It is the responsibility of those accepting such information to wait until they are well prepared to hang out a shingle and become a "professional". If not, our niche as a whole will never achieve the level of professional value it deserves.
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Re: Framebuilder or production line worker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rody
The trades mentioned earlier mandate education, experience, and certification before allowing one to venture out and begin a business, stacking the deck in favor of the new entrepreneur. I often feel that we create an ill defined path to success...we have limited educational opportunities, mentoring is done impersonally through 1's and 0's, and very little information queried and shared centers around small business tools vs. what torch/cutter/etc do you use.
I feel extremely lucky to be on the receiving end of a 'set table'. The fabrication and design work is great but some of the most interesting information I get is more in line with that last part. As many of you have said, framebuilding is not just building a frame. One of my favorite threads so far has been the 'Brand Guidelines' started by Mr. Henry FortyFour. Thanks, guys.
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Re: Framebuilder or production line worker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rody
Whit,
as my quote was pulled out for comment, please allow me to expand on my thought, it may help clarify my perspective...
Frame builders who fabricate for a living are fighting an uphill battle in respect to how our work is perceived by the whole of society. As builders, we perceive the bicycle as a multi-form tool that satisfies many client needs; function, recreation/performance, aesthetics, and personal/emotional expectations. It is, however, a vehicle for transportation and must be crafted with all the care and precision that is required for the safety of it's operator. The assumption of this risk is placed squarely upon the shoulders of the fabricator, requiring experience and maturity from those that choose this career.
Those who are embedded in the cycling profession, whether wrenching in a shop, selling inventory, or crafting product, recognize and value the form. However, society as a whole still sees the bicycle as a toy. When I commented that I believe the profession of fabricating bicycles is undervalued, I am looking through those eyes.
Folks accept that highly skilled trades executed by professionals demand a certain level of monetary compensation. Plumbers, Electricians, auto mechanics, etc, have hourly shop/job rates that reflect the value of the work they do. Demographically these rates vary, but in my region it is not uncommon to see an hourly cost of $80-$150 per hour for these skilled trades. It is necessary work provided by a skilled tradesman.
Conversely, many frame builders have a difficult time requesting the fair monetary compensation that their level of skill deserves. It is not until they have solidified their place in the market, suffered through many storms that build experience, and learn to operate a business efficiently that many exhibit the confidence to set a living wage without feeling the necessity to justify it. Sustainability/Longevity is the measure of success.
It saddens me to see so many promising builders start up, only to leave a few short years later because of a lack of small business tools and market awareness. This cyclic renewal of participants is present in every trade, however, it certainly feels like we have a greater turnover, perhaps because the community is smaller.
Many entering this profession do so because they feel passionately about it, but have not invested the appropriate care and time in creating a sustainable business model and cultivating a market for their work. In order to keep the flame alive, many will scrape by in an attempt to keep following their passion...thus the starving artist. These practitioners ultimately fail, often leaving behind economic upheaval in the customer base, tarnishing the niche as a whole.
The trades mentioned earlier mandate education, experience, and certification before allowing one to venture out and begin a business, stacking the deck in favor of the new entrepreneur. I often feel that we create an ill defined path to success...we have limited educational opportunities, mentoring is done impersonally through 1's and 0's, and very little information queried and shared centers around small business tools vs. what torch/cutter/etc do you use.
Is it the responsibility of established fabricators to develop those who wish to learn? Morally, I believe an effort should be made. Many have accepted this moral responsibility and have contributed, "setting the table" for others to achieve the beginning steps to success. It is the responsibility of those accepting such information to wait until they are well prepared to hang out a shingle and become a "professional". If not, our niche as a whole will never achieve the level of professional value it deserves.
Well put, Rody.
I've learned a lot from this forum and I'm very appreciative of the knowledge and experience shared. But honestly I don't usually participate here because I feel like there is a background disrespect of new builders coming into the trade. Not by everyone of course but in general the "Internet-trained" and "Starving Artist" names are used in a derogatory manner towards the newbies that didn't come up through the ranks like some of the pros. My response was to that basic sentiment that I thought was reflected in your statement (I see that it wasn't though).
The analogy to the skilled professional trades that get a stated hourly wage once they've completed their education & apprenticeship is a good one. It has crossed my mind many times when searching for apprenticeships and 'advanced' framebuilding classes why none exist? I wonder why there's not more out to help the newcomers climb up the ladder. I do believe it is partially for what Richard has said time and time again - it says something about the market that you are fighting for a share in (it is small). However, i know that for each frame I have made for a friend I get at least two friends of friends also wanting a custom steel frame - people who have never even considered a custom frame previously. So from my miniscule experience the market expands builder-by-builder. Kind of like the microbrewery craze that started with (IMO) Sierra Nevada. Now it seems like every city has at least one of their own microbreweries and more keep popping up. Nothing against the macro-breweries and big bike companies but when you offer a unique custom product people seem to dig it.
Some builders don't want to share what they've learned because they don't want more competition for the limited market share and likely despise that these forums exist at all. So with UBI and the other various one-man shops offering up framebuilding classes as one way to start building bikes for a living, what are newbies to do other than continue their learning by trial and error and by poking around on the social networking sites for clues? There are no other options that I'm aware of. Ok, I've heard of one 'apprenticeship' that was in the northeast in the last 5 years but that was for someone already experienced. So it's a pickle. I don't expect any one-man shops to offer apprenticeships for the next generation of builders out of the kindness of their hearts, but without further professional training or any type of accreditation the new builder is left to decide when they *feel* ready. I'd like to think that they know what they're doing when they hang out the shingle, but how does the customer know?
I remember seeing Matt Wilkinson's study of framebuilders and how many frames one had built before opening up shop. It surprised me that some started selling frames after building only one or two. They must be very talented because my first 5 frames really sucked. I was told that I should make 25 frames (at least) before even considering hanging out the shingle. I'm almost there and will hold out longer because I'd rather be damn sure I have a worthy and safe product before selling a frame to someone I don't know. (Yes, I have insurance so my friends and I are protected.)
Likely to the chagrin of many, I think it'd be great to have some sort of certification, accreditation, hell..a TEST that I can pass or fail before deciding to hang out the shingle. It'd be great for UBI (or someone else) to have an Advanced Framebuilding course where those who have built 5 or 10 frames can go to fine-tune their process and learn some things they may have forgotten or never learned in the first place. It'd be great to have a UBI certification 'class' where builders that want to sell bikes go to and build a frame from start to finish under the watchful eyes of a professional. Your tolerances and joining method are evaluated to some set of criteria (i.e., safe tube selection for the rider, tight-enough miters, enough weld penetration, etc) and upon finishing the certification 'class' the frame is evaluated and you either pass or fail. I'm sure this has been talked about ad nauseam over the years but with the seeming spike in the number of builders going out on their own I'm surprised some kind of accreditation hasn't yet taken hold so the seasoned professionals don't feel like the newbies are potentially downgrading and diluting their profession.
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Re: Framebuilder or production line worker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Meriwether
I don't expect any one-man shops to offer apprenticeships for the next generation of builders out of the kindness of their hearts, but without further professional training or any type of accreditation the new builder is left to decide when they *feel* ready.
You can't expect to have an apprenticeship at or through a framebuilder atmo. The pace, the routine, the production numbers are already low because the framebuilder is where he is after declaring independence from a larger arena, production or otherwise. A mentor, maybe. Learning at the heels of a framebuilder, no. The time between seeing processes repeated to the point that you'd "get it" is too wide. This is a fact of life. As with anything else, there will be an exception to this, but the rule is the way to learn (as opposed to being shown) is through repetition routine. It's not that we don't want you to have what we have, or won't share it. It's that we already have full plates that are the result of working a process long enough that it now pays. To interrupt that would mean we'd make less money or fewer units.
I think people really need to go to the well and decide why they want to build frames professionally. If it's to earn a living, then the path to that end is to make a sacrifice in time and money, and make a place for yourself on a production line learning each task. That won't happen at a school. Or in a framebuilder's shop. It will only happen in a place where lots of frames are made.
My observation in hindsight is that present framebuilders give back overwhelmingly more to the niche than ever occurred in the pre-Internet eras. The amount of information out there is immeasurable, the pic pages too many to count, and the places (like this) where interaction occurs never existed in the old days. But what we don't have are the many production shops where someone can plunk down for 3-4 years and begin a foundation. That's life, pal. If the excellent quality of the average manufactured bicycle hadn't evolved to where it is now (and has been for at least 2 decades), the need for what we do may not have diminished, knocking so many from the ranks. That, too, is life.
These are all points to consider when you wonder what path to take into this trade.
Oh and PS Sierra Nevada was started by a boy who stood 2 vices over from me at Witcomb Lightweight Cycles in London. He skipped the framebuilding agony once he returned to SoCal, and ultimately opened SN in the 1990s. Great story.
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Re: Framebuilder or production line worker
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Originally Posted by
e-RICHIE
Oh and PS Sierra Nevada was started by a boy who stood 2 vices over from me at Witcomb Lightweight Cycles in London. He skipped the framebuilding agony once he returned to SoCal, and ultimately opened SN in the 1990s. Great story.
Sierra Nevada was founded in 1979 and has been brewing since 1980.
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Re: Framebuilder or production line worker
If you ever find yourself in Chico, CA I recommend a visit to the brewery/restaurant. The food is excellent.
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Re: Framebuilder or production line worker
Quote:
I'm sure this has been talked about ad nauseam over the years but with the seeming spike in the number of builders going out on their own I'm surprised some kind of accreditation hasn't yet taken hold so the seasoned professionals don't feel like the newbies are potentially downgrading and diluting their profession
The UK Framebuilder's Guild was talking about setting up some kind of accreditation - the response of the seasoned professionals who got involved was mostly along the lines of "Who do these new guys think they are, to want to assess my framebuilding?"
Problem is that the seasoned pros have never got a proper qualification themselves, and now at a more mature time of life don't see the need for one. They also are often too busy to go through all the hassle, building a special frame to send off for testing and all that.
Besides, there is one fundamental test of a framebuilder's work - are they still in business?
My objection was partly this, but mostly that the whole idea of a standardised test for a custom product doesn't make sense. I could easily build a standard diamond frame that would pass the strength and fatigue tests, but what would that tell you about the strength, safety and quality of the tandem tricycle I'm in the middle of building?
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Re: Framebuilder or production line worker
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Originally Posted by
Mark Kelly
Sierra Nevada was founded in 1979 and has been brewing since 1980.
I have the dates wrong, but not the person atmo.
Thanks for the correction.
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Re: Framebuilder or production line worker
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Originally Posted by
e-RICHIE
You can't expect to have an apprenticeship at or through a framebuilder atmo. The pace, the routine, the production numbers are already low because the framebuilder is where he is after declaring independence from a larger arena, production or otherwise. A mentor, maybe. Learning at the heels of a framebuilder, no. The time between seeing processes repeated to the point that you'd "get it" is too wide. This is a fact of life. As with anything else, there will be an exception to this, but the rule is the way to learn (as opposed to being shown) is through repetition routine. It's not that we don't want you to have what we have, or won't share it. It's that we already have full plates that are the result of working a process long enough that it now pays. To interrupt that would mean we'd make less money or fewer units.
BINGO.
The closest I come to anyone working here is I have a couple pro mechs who I get to assemble frames - if I still wanted to tell people what to do all the time I'd still have a bike shop.
95% of the time I'd rather be alone.
People need to take this into consideration as well - allot of cats in this biz work alone because that's exactly how they want it.
Plus, there is nothing in my shop I can't do better and faster except maybe sand off mill scale, bust out vent holes or de-burr tubes - and heck, that's not enough of that to justify a hanger-on-er.
Also, and I bet not everyone is with me on this, I would recommend a decade as a bike mechanic, a business course, and some metal classes, and some form of art, be it formal or informal.
Gotta go get more coffee......
- Garro.
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Re: Framebuilder or production line worker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
e-RICHIE
You can't expect to have an apprenticeship at or through a framebuilder atmo. The pace, the routine, the production numbers are already low because the framebuilder is where he is after declaring independence from a larger arena, production or otherwise. A mentor, maybe. Learning at the heels of a framebuilder, no. The time between seeing processes repeated to the point that you'd "get it" is too wide. This is a fact of life. As with anything else, there will be an exception to this, but the rule is the way to learn (as opposed to being shown) is through repetition routine. It's not that we don't want you to have what we have, or won't share it. It's that we already have full plates that are the result of working a process long enough that it now pays. To interrupt that would mean we'd make less money or fewer units.
This I completely understand and agree that repetition is what's needed for someone to truly 'get it' and become confident in what they're doing. I could see an apprentice getting in the way with questions and 'teach me how to do this' stuff when you're just trying to build a bike for a waiting customer.
I think the classes like UBI, MetalGuru, and others are trying to capitalize on the interest in the trade and maybe fill a void of high production shops that no longer exist (maybe ZenFab and Co-motion are maybe two small ones in the US?). Although classes are just a start the individual has to create their own end, frame after frame after frame...
Whether you can market and sell what you make is an entirely different story.
Thanks to all who share your process and knowledge through the internet. The newbies stand on your shoulders and we're very appreciative. It's a huge legacy of information that will be here long after we're gone.
PS- Funny small world Sierra Nevada story! Seems like there's a direct relationship between beer and bikes.
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Re: Framebuilder or production line worker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bencooper
The UK Framebuilder's Guild was talking about setting up some kind of accreditation - the response of the seasoned professionals who got involved was mostly along the lines of "Who do these new guys think they are, to want to assess my framebuilding?"
Problem is that the seasoned pros have never got a proper qualification themselves, and now at a more mature time of life don't see the need for one. They also are often too busy to go through all the hassle, building a special frame to send off for testing and all that.
Besides, there is one fundamental test of a framebuilder's work - are they still in business?
My objection was partly this, but mostly that the whole idea of a standardised test for a custom product doesn't make sense. I could easily build a standard diamond frame that would pass the strength and fatigue tests, but what would that tell you about the strength, safety and quality of the tandem tricycle I'm in the middle of building?
These are good points. I don't think a certification program will ever happen but if it did, it'd be up to the seasoned professionals to develop the criteria for judging whether a framebuilder passes the test, as well as the end product. If you've been in business for 5 years or so (arbitrary #) you get the cert automatically perhaps?
I may be wrong but I think if you can build a standard or regular frame you can expand your process and abilities with the joining method to other types of frames. May take twice as long and some new fixtures and tooling though!
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Re: Framebuilder or production line worker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Meriwether
This I completely understand and agree that repetition is what's needed for someone to truly 'get it' and become confident in what they're doing. I could see an apprentice getting in the way with questions and 'teach me how to do this' stuff when you're just trying to build a bike for a waiting customer.
I think the classes like UBI, MetalGuru, and others are trying to capitalize on the interest in the trade and maybe fill a void of high production shops that no longer exist (maybe ZenFab and Co-motion are maybe two small ones in the US?). Although classes are just a start the individual has to create their own end, frame after frame after frame...
Whether you can market and sell what you make is an entirely different story.
Thanks to all who share your process and knowledge through the internet. The newbies stand on your shoulders and we're very appreciative. It's a huge legacy of information that will be here long after we're gone.
PS- Funny small world Sierra Nevada story! Seems like there's a direct relationship between beer and bikes.
Funnier still, for me. I was reacquainted with my pal when he called up to order a frame. I think it was late 90s, but could have been more recently. He said, hi it's his name goes here, and do I remember him. Of course I did. His story about the brewery was a good one, and he has done very well.
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Re: Framebuilder or production line worker
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I may be wrong but I think if you can build a standard or regular frame you can expand your process and abilities with the joining method to other types of frames. May take twice as long and some new fixtures and tooling though!
The joining side of it you can test easily - get everyone to fillet a T-piece, then try to break it. And/or hacksaw it in half. The problem comes when you try to test other things, like the builder's ability to choose materials to suit the job, build a frame straight*, or successfully meet the customer's requirements.
You're right about expanding, though - oddly, I've done it the other way around. I started building odd things, it's only relatively recently that customers have asked me to build normal frames too. Having a proper jig and a big body of knowledge to draw from seems odd to me!
*Because what's straight? A certain deflection measured from the BB shell? Who decides what deflection and measured from where? We probably all measure our frames differently. And how straight does a frame really need to be anyway?
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Re: Framebuilder or production line worker
- Notice how many fixtures Don is stacking up to ship out?
- We entered into the age of the "gentleman builder" some time ago. Lots of people building frames who are not in business, and don't really want to be in business.
- For any licensed trade (electrical, plumbing, etc.) I can find a guy who's willing to do it without the license.
- There are two types of single builders, the guys who've been in the trade as lifers and could move to a place like Winnamucca and actually sell frames, and the guys who in order to sell price themselves in a manner to feed off the bottom. There's not much middle ground. If a guy coming out of UBI built a couple of dozen frames and charged an appropriate price like 2-3k he'd watch his empty email daily.
- There are some guys I follow closely that are building incredible stuff, and I have no idea how they can survive. Many, many hours into each frame.
- There are quite a few multiple (1-4) person shops.
- Just read the story how Craig Calfee got his break with Lemond today. He'd been building like 3 years and got frames in the tour.
- Rookie and newbie are derogatory words in our modern culture.
- There's a perception that our current career guys all came out of shops, or little frame factories of some sort. I don't really buy that, some did, but many didn't.
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Re: Framebuilder or production line worker
A couple of thoughts -
It's not UBI's domain to train or accredit folks for the niche, nor is it Doug's or Dave's or Koichi's. And it's not the obligation of the niche's either. If there's a market for a product, and industry wants to capitalize on it, jobs will be available where folks can learn what goes where. For the longest time, the market has spoken, and manufactured goods (mostly imported) are what fills the need. Most of it is better fabbed, and at least as well designed, as what a rank and file framebuilder makes.
Comparing what framebuilders do with what's done at craft breweries or coffee roasters, or other similar-y trades is misplaced. A framebuilder typically has an order, and fills it. Normally, he himself does the work. No brewer makes a bottle or even a keg in a way that would be analogous to what we do. Same with roasters. The love might be there, but the scale of operation is more likely comparable to a production bicycle than to what we do.
Anyway, you can tell I'm a bit bored. No races this weekend atmo!
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Re: Framebuilder or production line worker
Anecdotal semi on-topic musings:
We have a local holiday fair this time of year. Lots of locally made craft vendors- sweaters, pottery, woodworkers, etc. Walking around that hall and seeing the volume of spec work (and associated material cost and time/ labor investment) was pretty astonishing when viewed from how I work. I have no idea if this is a mainline gig for most/ any/ all of the vendors, but it was pretty interesting.
To touch on Steve's comment- I don't think you need to have been a shop guy to build a bicycle, but I can't imagine wanting to be a "Custom Bicycle Builder" (designer, customer service, sales, fab, etc) without having done it. Building a Bicycle is not welding a frame. While we might bemoan the lack of apprenticeship opportunities, it seems there is a pretty good supply of gigs selling and working on bikes that will introduce you to a wide range of Custom Bicycle Builder mandatory skills.
Again, just some musings.
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Re: Framebuilder or production line worker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Estlund
Anecdotal semi on-topic musings:
We have a local holiday fair this time of year. Lots of locally made craft vendors- sweaters, pottery, woodworkers, etc. Walking around that hall and seeing the volume of spec work (and associated material cost and time/ labor investment) was pretty astonishing when viewed from how I work. I have no idea if this is a mainline gig for most/ any/ all of the vendors, but it was pretty interesting.
To touch on Steve's comment- I don't think you need to have been a shop guy to build a bicycle, but I can't imagine wanting to be a "Custom Bicycle Builder" (designer, customer service, sales, fab, etc) without having done it. Building a Bicycle is not welding a frame. While we might bemoan the lack of apprenticeship opportunities, it seems there is a pretty good supply of gigs selling and working on bikes that will introduce you to a wide range of Custom Bicycle Builder mandatory skills.
Again, just some musings.
The difference here, according to my opinion, is that unlike a sweater or ceramic cup, a bicycle is used on the open road. As much as I hate coming back to the same song, a bit more respect and diligence should be paid to the vehicle part of what we do, rather than to find more ways to group it with the arts and crafts world and the wares it offers. No attitude intended, but an observation. I don't have an answer regarding accreditation or testing, but I certainly have POVs about how low the barrier of entry into the trade appears to be.