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Swimming: clues needed
A few years back V salon's wisdom fixed my running game thankyouverymuc.
I've been a lousy swimmer forever. I can swim gently almost any stroke for a long time however as soon as I put some effort into it my chest gets very tight and I have to revert to a rescue stroke or stop swimming for a few mins.
A huge help was getting some coaching to clean up my freestyle so that I'm better able to get full breaths. Still, the overarching issue remains. My chest gets wicked tight (as in I can barely breath) during hard swimming.
Talk to me V.
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Re: Swimming: clues needed
Can you elaborate on putting some effort into it? Like do you mean picking up your stroke pace and kicking, or are we talking race pace? Just wondering if your body is tensing up as I would recommend being fluid and flexible when swimming any stroke even if pace has been picked up; swimming tense is not an efficient way to get through the water.
It has been a while since I swam competitively, but I don't remember having any sensation like that. A video of you swimming might help too, just to help us see what we are working with since I would be interested in your head and chest position in the water.
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Re: Swimming: clues needed
TT, swimming is a very technical activity. Form is very important to efficiently moving yourself forward. You need to essentially rotate your body around your spine so that you are hydrodynamic and activating the larger muscles in your chest and back.
I suggest you get some coaching. When I took up triathlons 30+ years ago, I was fortunate to be coached by a former national caliber high school swimmer.
Another thing to consider is swimming with pull buoys, which will float your legs and reduce or eliminate the need to kick. This will allow you to relax and focus on form.
Good luck. Swimming is a gas and can be very relaxing and meditative.
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Re: Swimming: clues needed
TT,
Does it happen when you're backstroking?
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Re: Swimming: clues needed
A couple of classes and the videos from these folks helped my swim massively... Great Ideas about how to be more relaxed and fluid in the water.
The World's Top Swim Training Videos | Total Immersion Swimming
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Re: Swimming: clues needed
Focus on being relaxed and efficient. Instead of going hard focus on taking less strokes per length. Once you're getting more distance per stroke you can start upping the tempo and you'll be faster and more efficient.
Watching instructional videos is great but getting someone else to take a video of you is even better. What you think you're doing and where you think your limbs are while you swim is usually not what's actually happening.
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Re: Swimming: clues needed
high elbows, both in and out the water. avoid crossing the centerline. kick from hips. check out Swimming Technique: Animations & Articles From Experts Swim Smooth They have a few free videos/illustrations on their site.
I wanna go swimming now...
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Re: Swimming: clues needed
Check on trying to be more relaxed, I'll pay attention to it.
Caleb - NO! Does not happen with backstroke.
Gary - Good stuff, I'm rotating pretty good but am forgetting about elbows...will do.
I'm swimming at what I'd call an aerobic pace eg not hard, just focusing on technique.
I've got a coach whom I've used in the past and he is fantastic but frankly his drills nearly kill me each time...maybe I should go back.
The floats sound interesting, my brother suggested fins.
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Re: Swimming: clues needed
For me the biggest thing is really getting my head down in the water. Took all of the struggle out, once I did that it was so much easier to feel more relaxed, focus on rotation etc.
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Re: Swimming: clues needed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
guido
For me the biggest thing is really getting my head down in the water. Took all of the struggle out, once I did that it was so much easier to feel more relaxed, focus on rotation etc.
head down brings the hips up...hips up is key.
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Re: Swimming: clues needed
You guys are GOLD. Head down, elbows, relax.
I'm swimming 4 to 5 days per week so progress will be easy to report out.
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Re: Swimming: clues needed
+1 to BSUdude's head and hips and guido's rotation. Whenever you are rotating your body try to think about stretching out the leading arm like you are reaching for something on the top shelf that is just out of reach; that should help bring the elbow up automatically out of the water, then you just have to focus on keeping it high. Freestyle should basically be a constant rotation from one lateral side of your body to the other.
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Re: Swimming: clues needed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Too Tall
You guys are GOLD. Head down, elbows, relax.
I'm swimming 4 to 5 days per week so progress will be easy to report out.
Just out of curiosity what's the goal here? fitness, masters competition, tri?
A good indicator for head position when rolling to breathe is one goggle in/one goggle out. Any more and you're straining your neck too much. That was an ongoing issue for me on one side right up until I "retired" from swimming.
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Re: Swimming: clues needed
Strictly expanding my vocabulary. No goal other than becoming good enough to not ruin anyone's day and perhaps to keep up with Queen when we swim in the ocean.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rauce
Just out of curiosity what's the goal here? fitness, masters competition, tri?
A good indicator for head position when rolling to breathe is one goggle in/one goggle out. Any more and you're straining your neck too much. That was an ongoing issue for me on one side right up until I "retired" from swimming.
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Re: Swimming: clues needed
Too soon to be sure. You guys might be right about needing to reeeeeelax.
FWIIW I warm up with breast stroke than 6 laps of freestyle, two laps breast stroke than I put on fins and focus on form and breathing both sides....fins off and finish with 4 laps freestyle and done.
I still have to stop and chill out but not as much and not as severe...this might be working.
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Re: Swimming: clues needed
When I had to fix my stroke in college, I had to take 6 weeks of swimming exclusively with the pull buoy to unlearn the 6-beat kick and break many years of bad habits. After that I started back up with a 2-beat kick, and thinking of my leg as a whip, whose movement was started from the hips.
The 2-beat solved most the left-over endurance issues by reserving my oxygen to the real movers in the freestyle stroke - the arms. Over kicking for a runner or cyclist will use HUGE amounts of available oxygen.
Lastly, high elbows not just during the recovery, but also during the pull.
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Re: Swimming: clues needed
This:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rauce
Focus on taking less strokes per length.
and this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
gary_a_gooner
high elbows, both in and out the water.
If you watch a great 1500* swimmer like Grant Hackett:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxLtYG97egI
you will see them doing as low as 30 strokes per length at race speed. With your height you should aim for this but DO NOT GLIDE to achieve it: aim to start the new catch as soon as the previous stroke is finished. Slow the stroke itself down and feel the water, aiming to push lots of it behind you.
The single thing that helped me most was being told to imagine I had eyeballs on my elbows and they always had to be able to see the sky.
*Australian swimmers have won eight medals including four golds in this one event in the last six olympics. Weird fact: Australia is possibly the only country that puts the national swimming championships on prime time TV.
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Re: Swimming: clues needed
I think high elbows above the water are overrated, but sometimes that cue will help bring other things in line.
I don't think the centerline of the body has been mentioned yet: Make sure your hands enter without crossing the centerline and then pull straight back while keeping a high elbow. The "S" pull that people used to teach is not something you want to do.
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Re: Swimming: clues needed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twowheels
Another thing to consider is swimming with pull buoys, which will float your legs and reduce or eliminate the need to kick. This will allow you to relax and focus on form.
Josh, this ^^^
I am not efficient enough to swim anything over a couple hundred meters at any effort, and that has nothing to do with strength. When I was racing long course the most valuable drills came from my tri coach when I raced for The Bike Boutique, more so than even the group swim practices when we did heavy effort workouts for 1.5-2hrs. Being able to relax and focus on my stroke and breathing helped the pace come down more than anything else and get me at least somewhat comfortable in the water.
- Two pool buoys (I use TYR) glued together to make a mega buoy to keep my dead weight hips from dragging on the floor.
- Old bike tube tied together to use around the ankles, wrapped in a figure eight.
- Paddles. I started with one size (color) smaller and the Yellow TYR paddles is as far as I got.
After I started doing these workouts and not being embarrassed by how I had to go about it I was able to become a bit smoother and a whole lot more comfortable over time. Kicking rhythm, hip rotation, elbow height, hand entry angle ect. was now actually something I could think about and work on when I was using the aforementioned props.
Don't get me wrong, I am still very much very fucking slow.. But I'm not on the verge of panic attack throughout a whole swim leg anymore either.
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Re: Swimming: clues needed
I forgot some links. This is the stuff I used:
TYR Pull Float at Sunplay
TYR Catalyst 2 Training Paddles at SwimOutlet.com
Forgot to mention the fins I would use for some effort sets: TYR Burner
TYR Burner EBP Floating Fin at SwimOutlet.com
I think aside from all the technical details and fretting over form, just getting somewhat comfortable in the water continuously swimming for a decent period of time is most important. It sure was for me.
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Re: Swimming: clues needed
My uncle is a masters swimmer. Mel Goldstein. He once told me swimming is like your shoulders trying to run away from your hips while being chased by your feet. Or something like that. I can't remember the exact quote. Anyway, he wrote a book about his technique called Swimming Past 50. Check it out. I don't think it is in print, but I've been able to find a copy for others with a little searching. Supposed to be a good book but too advanced for me. No chapters on dog paddling or the perfect cannonball, which admittedly is sort of the antithesis of swimming.
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Re: Swimming: clues needed
Thanks Justin and Jorn, gives me some homework. Justin, my flippers were almost too much "stuff" for me. I hate going all in with new pursuits until I earn it so for now it's me, the water, elbows and occasional fins ;) I get it, the bouys make a ton of sense. I'll need some time to adjust my head first.
Justin, thanks again for the links. Now I understand why I hate my fins. Got the wrong ones, they are too long. Arrg.
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Re: Swimming: clues needed
Josh -- the TI videos have great stuff for keeping your head down... Definitely worth a watch.
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Re: Swimming: clues needed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rauce
The "S" pull that people used to teach is not something you want to do.
What doesn't get taught, for whatever reason, is that the "S" is real, but it's a result of body roll, not something you want your hands to do actively.
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Re: Swimming: clues needed
You are a pretty smart guy Mr. Too Tall. You know fitness, you know coaching, you are a rockfish. I swam grade school, high school, college and coached/taught more folks than I can remember on a professional basis. The basic rules for swimming are simple... efficiency, efficiency, efficiency. The water in way more dense than the air you cut thru riding. As tall as you are, you should have a huge long stroke. No matter how fit the individual is, you can waste more energy in the water than you can possibly dream about. The only way to get better is to spend quality time in the pool. Get an instructor/coach, swim with the masters and spend as much time in the water as you once did on the bike. Shitty practice makes a shitty swimmer. Find someone who is good to look at your stroke weekly for a year and you will be way better if you swim 3-5 days a week. Just going to a big masters program where the coach can not spend time on you will not work nearly as well as someone who will change one small thing weekly with your stroke. Wake up a year later and you are a way better swimmer. Fact those words are.
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Re: Swimming: clues needed
Good stuff Moke. I do have a coach who I have not used yet this year. My intermediate goal prior to seeing him are in the above comments....I need to relax and get comfortable swimming than I will allow myself to see coach who is just as you describe. He sees small things than tortures me with drills ;)
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Re: Swimming: clues needed
That is my formula. To change one little thing in your stroke. Do three practice sessions thinking about that one thing to make it a habit. Then I change one other part of the stroke and repeat until the stroke looks good then hit the masters program for the volume with a couple time a month look see session. I have guys that I literally taught to swim 30 years ago that are better swimmers than I am now. They have probably almost as much or possibly more swimming miles under them then I had from 9 years old to out of college
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Re: Swimming: clues needed
Every time I see the title of this thread I read it as Swimming Poll Q's and then have flash backs to the The Swimming Pool Q's - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sorry for the interruption...back to the regular scheduled program. Or something to listen to while holding your breath.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-mUj06BeLI
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Re: Swimming: clues needed
Good things to report. Slow but steady progress. Using fins I've discovered a nice two beat kick that supports me not over taxing aerobic ability. Also, if I snap my face sooner for a breath I can get more air in and out with each stroke.
Queen has seen me standing in the pool wheezing barely able to breath, so there is still something weird about my lungs and swimming. That issue is getting better as I'm getting more relax with a basic freestyle.
Yeah rah me :)
Sadly, I've graduated from boards shorts to Jammers. All hope is lost.
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Re: Swimming: clues needed
I'm sure you're already doing this, but sometimes people forget -- make sure you're completely exhaling while your face is in the water so that you have the full time while it's out to fully inhale.
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Re: Swimming: clues needed
I'm breathing out so hard sometimes I engage intercostals!!!
Thanks, all these clues are helping.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
David Tollefson
I'm sure you're already doing this, but sometimes people forget -- make sure you're completely exhaling while your face is in the water so that you have the full time while it's out to fully inhale.
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Re: Swimming: clues needed
It seems the "swimmer's body" is the exact opposite of the cyclist's body: large and long torso, short legs and big hands. I read this the other day.
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Re: Swimming: clues needed
David is 100% on with his blow out before you can breath in. Swimming is a odd sport in that you really have to control your breathing. Holding breath for push offs,being sure to blow out your residual lung volume so you can take a deeper breath quickly, and timing your breathing with your body position and stroke. That is just stuff you don't think about that much in a lot of sports. Glad to see you hanging in there Mr. Tall.
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Re: Swimming: clues needed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Too Tall
Caleb - NO! Does not happen with backstroke.
Just seeing this now, TT.
I think all the technique stuff is good, but in addition I think there's a physiological adjustment when dryland athletes get in the pool. Through exercise, we've taught our bodies that oxygen isn't scarce, it's the intake and processing of it that are limiting. Simply put, to get the fuel to go hard, we breathe hard. When you get in the pool you can't do that, and your body freaks out because it's physiologically unsure how to respond. Backstroke is the one exception because your face is out of the water and you can breathe "normally."
I'm not a coach or trainer, but for me and people I've trained with, a physiological and mental adjustment comes with volume. It comes faster by doing group workouts at a higher intensity where the social element and the ever-present clock get you outside of your own head, and you also have to push your body anaerobic. An added bonus is that technique seems to me to come easier at higher speeds, basically the opposite of every other sport where technique breaks down at speed.
Anyway, I'd suggest jumping in some workouts where you're swimming intervals with a group, enough people to be circle swimming to keep your mind occupied. Your mileage may vary, but I suspect that soon you'll start to feel stronger and more confident as your body learns that the correct response to stress isn't to breathe more rapidly, but rather to efficiently make use of all the oxygen it gets. Sort of a tough love strategy with your bio processes, I guess.
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Re: Swimming: clues needed
Caleb, fantastic observation. With your words on my mind and reflection on how I felt doing sprints against my lovely wife you might be right. At the very least it is a part of the algorithm. I've set a goal to jump into masters swim next season.
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Re: Swimming: clues needed
It must be a personal thing. My technique at slow speeds isn't bad. But it falls apart entirely when I speed up...
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Re: Swimming: clues needed
What helped me most:
- try to swim downhill, water surface tension provides resistance. the more you are under water the better
- relax
- smooth, avoid turbulance, minimize kick excursion
- swim with fistgloves twice a week
PS: Josh, can you link to the running thread you mention?
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Re: Swimming: clues needed
http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum...t=running+sand
Boss, lots of good stuff in that thread. The one thing, well two things, that got me "there" were to stop running on my forefoot and have extreme patience to adapt. This is in hindsight and that said I made a ton of mistakes with setbacks due to tearing up my calves.
At the point where I finally was able to run it was like a light bulb in a dim room, finally I quit trying to be a superstar and "just run" to adapt. Now I'm running to maintain my legs and not fall back into the same trap.
FWIIW If you can find a good Chi running coach, do it.
OK, back to swimming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CXinNH
What helped me most:
- try to swim downhill, water surface tension provides resistance. the more you are under water the better
- relax
- smooth, avoid turbulance, minimize kick excursion
- swim with fistgloves twice a week
PS: Josh, can you link to the running thread you mention?
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Re: Swimming: clues needed
swimmer and former coach here. a few tips:
kick with the whole leg. swimming specific fins can help teach this.
on freestyle/backstroke (long axis strokes) body roll is key- as in on freestyle when you're taking your breath, the opposite shoulder should be aimed towards the bottom. other than that, the head should be still.
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Re: Swimming: clues needed
Thanks Ethan. I get that now, the fins have been a huge help. I'm using fins in the middle of my swim each day.