Bottle Boss Brazing Jig - Gauging Interest.

Hey everybody. During my latest build I found out how much of a paint it is getting bottle bosses square, so I designed a jig that can be mounted on 1.125" - 1.500" Tubes to hold the bottle bosses square during brazing. The plungers are preloaded by the springs which are adjustable via the shaft collars. The plan is to eventually add different arms for different things at some point. I'm going to be building this for myself, and I am seeing if there is any additional interest in something like this. If so I might a lot of 10 - 20, The price would be around $175, Anodized Red.

http://i.imgur.com/DBpLret.jpg?1

http://i.imgur.com/dHMMYcr.jpg?1

PM me or email me at farr.frameworks@gmail.com if you are interested. If I don't get any interest this thread will just be another build thread going through the stages of the build for myself!
-Todd.

After building excel files and looking at the jig from a fresh perspective I was able to find a pre-assembled plunger that will do the job just fine. It's going to save a lot of money. I'm thinking I should be able to get the price down quite a bit. I'll do some more costing tomorrow to figure out a better estimate.

http://i.imgur.com/5T4aKyW.jpg

Todd,

A simple tubing block to keep the tube in phase during the machining process is a lot cheaper and more efficient.

You should be putting in bosses prior to assembling the frame for joining to reduce the heat imput stress, yes?

cheers,

rody

Bottle Boss Brazing Jig? Really? I can't think of may jobs easier than brazing bottle bosses. I suspect you may just be making one of those!!

Attachment 51852Todd- You're only the first one (other then me) who seems to think that bosses that are square are important enough a goal to have a brazing jig to insure such. I've had a home made jig for this since years ago (pic attached). I do like yours more then mine and i would be interested in how much one might cost.

A few points about the one I made and use. The plunger and pilots need to not be able to be braze friendly. A material that can be brazed with brass or Silver will, at some point by some one,get brazed into the boss. And that will be a pain to fix.I wish My jig had some form of holding the plunger/pilots in place, other then with gravity. There are times that I will set up a few braze ons at the same time and one of the others might be easier to do if that one was vertical which might make the bottle boss one not upright during the other's brazing.

With your design if you eliminated the clamp bolts from entering a pivot pin, and they simply threaded directly into the clamp body, would save a bunch of time/parts and not detract too much from their function.

Looking forward to seeing what develops and what the costs are. Andy.

I think square bottle bosses are important but I can't say I find it difficult to make sure they stay square. Everyone once in a while I need to nudge one back square with the torch but if I needed to crack that jig out and set it up everytime I needed to braze some bosses in, I'd go loopy!

Maybe it's just me, I have only done 3 sets so far and the last two where slanted to the right for some reason. Do you use anything to keep them from floating? I had a file resting on them and must have not had it perfectly square.

check out the Simple tools thread there are some really... well... simple solutions in there that are pretty cool. I've had some issues with the bosses floating on my frames too. I'll be trying something like the things in that thread for the next.

I find 9 out of 10 go straight - if one wanders I use my do-it-all braze on holder (a welding clamp with a bit of wire sticking out).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bencooper

i find 9 out of 10 go straight - if one wanders i use my do-it-all braze on holder (a welding clamp with a bit of wire sticking out).

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kiss.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bencooper

I find 9 out of 10 go straight - if one wanders I use my do-it-all braze on holder (a 12" set of needle nose pliers).

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Fixed.
- Garro.

I like posting stuff up on here, because even though I get flamed sometimes it helps narrow my focus and learn from others experiences.

Using the Paragon tube blocks is a great idea since most people have them already and they are pretty inexpensive, thanks Rody.

Here is the latest plan. Make just the top part and modify a Paragon tubing block. If anyone wants the top part, I'll send a template along for drilling the holes. I'm also going to build the top bar out of stainless for longevity purposes.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8090/8...9c1608e8_b.jpg

Todd- i can understand why you've taken this turn, epically given the replies posted. I still think this function is a nice one to have. Two things though-

First i like the idea of a Vee block instead of a specific sized tube block as the clamp. The first design could have been a single vee block with a hose clamp securing it to the tube. Having only one tube diameter that the jig works with to me is not good.

Second- Can you supply me with the link/source of the plungers and their sleeves? IIRC you mentioned that they were commercially available. Andy.

Andy,
I manly did it for cost purposes, the Initial design with the new plungers is going to cost around $140 bucks each, the the paragon tube blocks you can tap multiple sets (different sizes) and then the jig can be moved from one to the other quickly with the two knurled knobs. The new version I can make and sell for half the cost at $75, without the tubing blocks.

The plungers are all one piece MiSUMi PN PJS12-15.

-Todd

@Todd : I like the use of the spring plunger just for making tools that hold any type of braze-on. You've given me an idea for modifying my own braze-on holders. Here's a bunch available through McMaster. I like the bent file tip trick from an old file, but sometimes it's not ideal and something that grabs a tube from a distance is best.

From a methodology standpoint for bottle bosses, I've found that if that hole is more of a friction/press fit with the bottle boss, the bosses have less of a chance to float.

Another note is my mitering setup uses two tubing blocks: One to hold the tube for the miter, and a second that follows the tube through all the mitering to keep things in phase. I leave that tubing block in place so when it's time to drill the holes for the bottle bosses, things are still in phase in accordance with the miters. It is overkill, but it helps keep things all lined up so I can minimize "work of risk" if I can use a David Pye term. Not to say that you should use this, but perhaps it will give you some ideas in terms of methodology. If you orient the tube block in the right place, you could simply add that bottle boss jig when the time comes.

Mitering :

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8215/8...aac8cdd6_c.jpg

Tubing block left in place to keep it in phase for 3 miters and bottle boss drilling :

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8379/8...ece55c6e_c.jpg

Anything but a touring bike is <10min total for all braze ons - don't over think them - rock them out!
- Garro.

Todd, I hate to be 'that guy', but this smells a lot like one of those threads where someone tries something once, finds it surprisingly difficult, so dives into investing in tooling to get them out of a sticky patch. If you've only done 3 sets of bosses and they're not quite right, it's not because the world is missing a tool/jig/fixture, it's because you've only done 3 sets.

Buy a couple of lengths of tubing with 0.5 wall, drill a hundred holes in each and fit a couple of hundred bosses. When you're done with that you'll wonder why you bothered with your fancy solidworks* renderings :-)

*or whatever the cool cats are using these days

Todd,

These guys are right, BUT hey if fabricating tools is your thing......let that fab flag fly. Maybe its substantial overkill, but to some extent, so is all of this.

This is true - the guy who taught me to braze used a vice and a piece of string. No jigs, nothing.

If it solves a problem for you, knock yourself out - but as Steven says maybe just a little more practice will save you the hassle of building a jig you don't need.

[QUOTE=fortyfour;484075]@Todd : I like the use of the spring plunger just for making tools that hold any type of braze-on. You've given me an idea for modifying my own braze-on holders. Here's a bunch available through McMaster. I like the bent file tip trick from an old file, but sometimes it's not ideal and something that grabs a tube from a distance is best.

From a methodology standpoint for bottle bosses, I've found that if that hole is more of a friction/press fit with the bottle boss, the bosses have less of a chance to float.

Another note is my mitering setup uses two tubing blocks: One to hold the tube for the miter, and a second that follows the tube through all the mitering to keep things in phase. I leave that tubing block in place so when it's time to drill the holes for the bottle bosses, things are still in phase in accordance with the miters. It is overkill, but it helps keep things all lined up so I can minimize "work of risk" if I can use a David Pye term. Not to say that you should use this, but perhaps it will give you some ideas in terms of methodology. If you orient the tube block in the right place, you could simply add that bottle boss jig when the time comes.

Kris,
I'm glad this thread could be of some help to someone! I've used those spring plungers in a lot of my machine designs and they sure are handy for resets and holding things in place. I kind of forgot about them until I took a step back and looked at my original design. I smacked myself in the forehead and basically said, wow you just designed an external sprung spring plunger...That's what I get for doing this stuff after a full 10 hour day at my job!

I like your mitering setup and thanks for taking the time to explain your reasons! I really appreciate it. I was thinking if I could put a slot with side guides and have the bar adjustable then it wouldn't really matter where you put your "in-phasing" tubing block. You could just slap it on, slide it to the length tighten and braze. I think I'm going to use that method!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GAAP

Todd,

These guys are right, BUT hey if fabricating tools is your thing......let that fab flag fly. Maybe its substantial overkill, but to some extent, so is all of this.

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GAAP, I love machining. It's actually one of the main reasons I got into frame building, it gives purpose to my machining and allows me too make parts that I will use to make bikes.

Thanks for all the replies everyone. I'll keep you updated on the build.