i suspect its just an old dog new trick thing. i'm stubborn. i think there has been too much change for me in the last year or so and the Bosch was the straw.
now one of you appliance snobs go buy my damn espresso machine will yah?
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i suspect its just an old dog new trick thing. i'm stubborn. i think there has been too much change for me in the last year or so and the Bosch was the straw.
now one of you appliance snobs go buy my damn espresso machine will yah?
fixed it for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom
I'd say that last one equals the Leibherr we have. As vegetarians mostly (and with NYC outside) we almost never use a freezer. But I wish the ice maker would work. Customer support is great. I call, they come, its fixed, they leave, it works, it doesn't work, I call, etc. But vegetables last forever in the crisper drawer. Terrific refrigerator, so 1/2 works well, but it is sort of a tall mini fridge.Quote:
Originally Posted by winmonster
What say the brain trust to the following brands and types? I have specific models but I am just trying to get a sense of actual reliability versus everything is rosy advertising.
Fisher Paykel - 30" refrigerator, gas cook top, single wall oven
MGS kitchen faucet, shower faucet
Wolf single wall oven, gas cooktop
Our architects have penciled in a Gaggenau cooktop and wall oven, Vola kitchen faucet, bathroom faucet, shower faucet, Sub-Zero 30" integrated refrigerator w/two freezer doors, and Fisher Paykel tall single DishDrawer dishwashers. A lot of cash there, but solid reliability for the most part, though I've heard murmurings about the Sub-Zero. But if you'd like to chime in on any of those, please do, because I am building up a list of lower priced alternatives in case/when budget requires adjustment.
Jorn...I might jinx myself but our Sub has been in use for 20 years now with absolutely no issues...42" double door unit with a side freezer. I'm not sure what the ROI is but it fits just perfect and does what it's supposed to do. We have a Thermador double oven with one unit being a convection oven, and a 5-burner Thermador gas cooktop...all in operation for 20 years serving a family of five. I recall that a module went out on the double oven about 2-3 years ago...$200-300. I'm sure that there are refrigerators out there in the market that are 22" deep because that was one of the Sub's selling points years ago...cabinet flush depth and the compressor up above. I'd also want to know where the repair tech is coming from as you do hear some horror stories about replacement parts availability with some brands.
I would not recommend Fisher Paykel anything.
Faucets, am a big fan of Grohe but for our kitchen reno earlier this year we purchased 2 Italian made faucets (Fortis) because they look great and felt solid. Long term?? There are plenty of excellent faucets to choose from.
SubZ and Wolf. Fine company and they can fix it 15 years later.
Not yet comfortable with the serviceability of European range/cooktop/oven brands. They will need more service than top American firms Wolf or 5 Star.
Am going to need new kitchen appliances in the next 6 months or so. Lots of re-modeling to do so we're taking it pretty easy in the kitchen. Re-arranging cabinets and adding a few new ones as needed, and new flooring.
Budget? Dunno. What are Ultegra-level appliances?
Rural property. No gas service. There is a giant propane tank to feed the backup generator, so we can take advantage of that.
Kitchen is going to be reconfigured. Cooktop on the island, most likely. Electric is actually somewhat appealing to keep the island surface flat and clean.
Wall oven next to the fridge, dishwasher, all the basic stuff.
I 2nd this. Basically throw away equipment as not many will work on it also parts are hard to come by for the DIYer. We have used Miele and have nothing but praises for the fridge and dishwasher. The dishwasher is a work horse with a growing family of 5 and honestly the hardest working appliance we own.Quote:
Originally Posted by sine
Faucet wise we use Rohl. Have had to use there warranty service once due to a sticky faucet handle. Although probably our fault due to use. No questions asked sent us the part and easy to replace.
are you still liking the Bertazzoni ?Quote:
Originally Posted by crumpton
I'm looking at 36" ranges and Bertazzoni look nice, reviews seems mixed. I'm reading cookies are hard to bake in the oven...lol...but many other ranges get that same gripe. Honestly so many of these "reviews" I'm reading seem like bullshit.
How is the heat insulation when using the range?
We bought a new place last month, and have been going through some of the same choices.Quote:
Originally Posted by nahtnoj
We're on gas, so that impacted my choices. A 30" GE gas range with a couple 15k BTU burners, a basic Frigidaire stainless refrigerator (I can't imagine caring about a refrigerator as long as it works), a Bosch 800 dishwasher, and the biggest Maytag top loading washer and dryer. I made the decisions based largely on feel. Within price ranges, there's still drastically different feels to them.
The one thing I'd change if I were on electric is that I'd think about an induction cooktop. Coils and glass tops are both of the devil.
Speaking of choices, is navy the new red?
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1951/...d50b751dc4.jpg
We ended up with MGS faucets. They are an Italian brand and the finish and operation is really nice. Vola faucets are nut$, though I know they are durable. 80% of a faucet's durability is the valve etc. that goes in the wall, and the stuff for MGS looks really nicely made.
Bosch now makes a nice wall oven with either left or right hinge. We wanted the oven higher on the wall than the install height for the Wolf ovens, and when you go up that high you need a side hinge door. HBLP451 is the number on that model plus letter designation for left or right opening door. The door is not switchable so you have to spec the correct orientation.
We also wanted the Wolf cooktop that is flush mounted in the surface of the counter and has the knobs on the cabinet front, but the limits on space and requirement for a downdraft meant that we didn't get that one. I think that's a nice cooktop though - CG365CS is the model number - as well as being a nice looking cooktop.
These things are all weird. You have your kitchen design, then you pick the appliances to fit into the slots, and then you realize that there are all these other parameters that mean XYZ doesn't fit so you redesign the kitchen, and then you end up with a few intractable issues vis a vis power, exhaust, thermal separation, drawers, etc. In our case, the less expensive items required a more expensive redesign and construction of the kitchen island than the more expensive items that would require no redesign and on-budget construction, which meant overall it was slightly cheaper to use the more expensive appliances, so that's what we did.
The most important appliance in the entire house is still going to be the espresso machine.
Pretty sure my wife still wants a Neff Slide-and-Hide oven (or two), and I'm pretty sure we'd have to redesign our kitchen around Neff appliances to get that.
+ whatever on coils and glass tops being awful. Glass tops are for G Paltrow.
Those Neff’s are pretty cool. Unfortunately wall ovens are still nearly a niche product. American ovens have to fit a 20lbs turkey and stuffing and potatoes. I suspect collusion between the turkey producers and the range makers.
Um. We didn't have that issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by j44ke
Maybe this is an issue with higher end appliances? We had no issues with fitting the appliances we chose (hood, stove, fridge, dishwasher, sink, faucet, microwave) in the spots designated for those items. Neither me nor my wife could figure out why, say, a Wolf was worth the massive premium over a GE.
And I recently had a conversation with the salesman at a very well-known local store when, as I was buying a washing machine, he said, "...just don't get a Miele. Those things are completely non-standard and they break." I got the cheapest LG they had in stock. I guess he doesn't work on commission.
It wasn't fitting the appliances in. It was working with a 100% custom design and figuring out creative way to get plumbing and electricity and ventilation where it needed to go. Our house is going to be glass and a series of cabinets covered by a roof. Some of the cabinets hold a refrigerator, some of the cabinets hold a bathroom. So self-induced complexity, but it is all designed up now and really really cool.Quote:
Originally Posted by davids
I'd say one of the big differences between good appliances and expensive good cooktops/ranges is control of the cooking temperature. It is one of those things you didn't know you actually needed until you have it. Really crazy range of adjustability on the flame with high range btus and multiple burner rings on a single burner. Makes cooking on multiple burners as you make several different things at once a lot easier. And you know, just like any really nice tool, there is just the pleasure of use. Like a Campy chain tool. Or an Abbey Tools titanium hammer.
Having cooked on gas and electric induction ranges, I would give it to induction, the speed of the heat and the control beats gas hands down for me.
waking this thread up. i need to replace my oven range it's a 30 inch slide in. from the minimal research i've done it seems i have to stick with that. does that sound accurate? and if i have to go slide in it seems like options narrow down. i was thinking miele based on reliability but they only do free standing. so what's the more reliable free standing ranges that have the features? kitchen aid? GE Cafe and I guess Samsung? Any recommendations? The previous Kitchenaid lasted 18 years. It's been OK but not great. Concerned because read some online reviews that quality had gone down. G.E. sold the business, Samsung is unknown to me and was never that thrilled with BOSCH? What's my best option? -Mike G
Quote:
Originally Posted by j44ke
Only seeing this now since Mike woke up the thread. Hope I am not too late.
The apartment we bought came with these. Worst thought out, engineered, and built pieces of garbage ever. More than two people and/ or two serving dishes you can’t even load all the plates you used. And forgot about it if you use a single bowl.
I miss the Miele full size I had in my old place. That was fantastic.
Oh and the Liebherr fridge sucks. I swear the Liebherr and then Mr Appliance guy have to live n my apartment to keep the ice maker going. Thankfully it’s Manhattan so the deli down the street has bags of ice which even with Manhattan deli prices seems a cheaper alternative than the Manhattan appliance repair prices.
FAnd Mike, I loved my Kitchen Aid too in fridges though. The KitchenAid gas stove/oven I have now is likely to be thrown out when every piece of overpriced crap that is in this kitchen get replaced. Which will be in the next five minutes because this thread has me so worked up. I loved my Thermador ovens I had in my old place. It had a separate Thermador gas cooktop which was also great. I just don’t have the space in the new place for that solution though.
so back to one of my question. what's involved in going miele if my current unit is a slide in? I'm a fan of Miele but I have be pragmatic too.Quote:
Originally Posted by htwoopup
I think it isn’t bad. May just have to do some trim things on cabinets/countertop. There may be some other stuff depending on utilities and the hole that it fits into. If utility issues like moving lines that’s a whole other smoke in this town.
When Jon refers to Thermador, I felt that I needed to respond. We have a Thermador 5-burner gas cooktop and a double oven (one convection) that have been kicking arse for 21 years. One ($125) control repair on one of the ovens about 10 years ago...that’s it.
Thermador is owned by BSH Home Appliances Corp. - also owner of Bosch and Gaggenau.
We have a Bosch range original to the house. At first I thought it sucked, but then I did some research and found out that the original door springs & hinges were set up vertically, so when they started to wear the door sagged open and the oven took forever to warm up. I ordered a replacement inner door which included said springs and hinges redesigned not to sag, took apart the door and switched out the inner door etc. and now it works like a champ. It is a glass top electric, which took some getting used to after gas, but I can manage it now.
If you have a slide-in range and want to use a stand-alone, you have to double check measurements and make sure that the finished sides of the stand alone will fit. Sometimes they are a tighter fit. Also slide-ins usually have trim around the top edge that covers the space between the oven and the counter-top. Sometimes that means the cut-out was done less carefully than for a stand alone, because the trim covers that up. Removing the trim can also reveal a strip of lighter/darker/stained counter material - or even ragged unfinished edges - and the stand alone may not fit as well with the faces/doors/drawers of the cabinets on either side of the oven's front door. You'll have to deal with any of that to make things look okay. There are tricks - just find someone who knows what they are doing. Some stand alones have the knobs behind the burners - fine for placement against a wall but not in a kitchen island. If you are going to a higher BTU range, you may want to check your venting to make sure has the proper capacity. If your range uses/will use gas, don't reuse the old connection. Replace the flexible gas line back to the gas pipe with a new one. I wouldn't work on the gas hookup myself. I'd call ConEd and go from there.
Since you are in NYC, go to the Architects and Designers Building on 58th St and look at all the brands. Some of them will even let you try them out - meaning cook something on the stove top, not bake a cake. That's important for induction. If you haven't had an induction top, you need to try out a GOOD one. I think with induction, you get what you pay for. Good ones are as close as electric gets to gas. Regular are meh, and bad ones will be infuriating. A&D Building has all of the brands mentioned in this thread. They aren't selling there, so you can spend hours and not talk to anyone. Very little pressure. But also as much info as you want.
That looks similar to the one that was in my apartment when we purchased it. I am not as happy with it as I was with my old Thermidor.Quote:
Originally Posted by fastupslowdown
The oven is great but there are weird little things that make me a little nuts. The way the burners are setup...on mine it doesn’t work for me.
The biggest burner is on the front left as I look at it. There is a little low output burner on the back left. If I am using an iron griddle/grill for steaks or whatever I would prefer the two burners to be somewhat the same size. They are wildly different sized.
It’s the same thing but in reverse on the right side. I would have liked them flipped. Oh, and the back burner on the right side is smaller than the front on the left.
It just makes it all crazy inconvenient to me when cooking with more than one burner because of how I cook. Honestly, it is something that I have never thought about in a stove before but now that I have this situation it really is annoying and something I will look for in the future.
Also, the burners are a nightmare to clean. For some reason they are worse than any stove I had before. This is important to me as my wife seems to think there are two speeds to a burner, on full and off completely, which means every cooking experience is a deep cleaning experience. On cleaning, the previous owners must have used something strong OR KitchenAid doesn’t finish the metal well because the top is just a mess around the biggest burner.
I also am not happy with the vent cap in the middle betweeen the burners. Horrible to clean and I am not quite sure of its purpose.
That all sounds so negative and I guess it is because as I said above, I want to replace it. Although of the appliances that came with the apartment is far better than the dish drawers by Fisher, the fridge by Liebherr, or the Microwave by KitchenAid.
And, I have to say the oven has been bang on and fantastic on the various fancy stuff you can do with it. Although, here too, it is the hardest to clean oven of any that I have ever owned. Yes it has self clean but there is still cleanup I always have done after a self clean on the oven and this one is a little more work for some reason.,
Oh, and the grills are tough to clean and don’t fit in my “dish drawers” maybe they do in a real dishwasher.
But the brand would be in my consideration set again, just I would look at those nits above because that matters to me. Of course, you may be totally fine with it and have other nits about something else.
Attachment 114567
thanks. brands like thermador , viking, miele can't be considered as they don't do slide-ins. i'm quickly learning here and elsewhere i should stick with a slide-inQuote:
Originally Posted by htwoopup
for what its worth. i wasn't loving my new kitchenaid frig at first. it works and keeps the food fresh but the top shelf is not as usable as it should be with half the shelf space at reduced clearance. the subzero and miele don't do that but there miele required an electrician to move an outlet and i got the feeling subzero was not that reliable. at this point i'm used to it.
In terms of reliability, I’ve owned a Sub side-by-side as long as the Thermador gear (21 years) and no issues at all. I’m not sure if I’d spend the money on another one, as it seems like there are some manufacturers who also now make a cabinet depth refrigerator. At the time, they were the only ones in the game who manufactured to cabinet depth dimensions and it was one of the few items in the design that Mrs. RW was drawn too. If you use the kitchen like she does, get the better gear. I’m just in it for the bread, pizza and coffee.
Gas? Electric? Are you interested in particular features?Quote:
Originally Posted by fastupslowdown
My wife (chief chef chez nous) has very specific requirements which include maximum burner space (for big pans and pots) and dual ovens rather than a nearly useless storage drawer.
That led us to a GE Profile PGS950. Four years in we like it very much.
I was just going to ask about dual ovens because I am going to replace the slide-in and the completely useless microwave over it with a good one and an actual hood. It'll be nice to be able to look in the pans in the back and gosh darn it, sometimes cooking involves smoke on purpose.
I was looking at dual ovens because sometimes its nice not to have to serialize what you're doing because one thing wants 275 and the other wants 500.
Edit: and what genius thought 'bisque' was an appropriate color for a freaking stove? You ever see anything burnt to a bisque?
Well I typed up all the possible issues you might face. You MAY face exactly NONE of those. Once you pull the slide-in range out, installing the stand alone could just be as simple as gas+electric+push. Make measurements of the space in your counter. Then look for the installation guides for each range you are interested in. All the companies include these on their websites. Those guides will have a measured drawing that shows height width depth and any clearance issues that need to be accommodated.Quote:
Originally Posted by fastupslowdown
Here's the kicker - you live in NYC. Lots of old stoves coming out and new ones going in. And a lot of the new ones are "I bought a XYZ stove because I really like the way it looks and now I want you to make it fit" kind of adventures for installers. Lots of experience out there, in other words.
The Wolf ranges are stand alone and the cook surface is 1" higher than most counter tops (37" and 36" respectively. That 1" should allow some artistry if there are any issues with the surrounding edges of the cabinet. And Wolf 30" range, imho, is really nice.
Edit: Might also go look at this Bosch. BOSCH - HGIP54UC - Gas Slide-in Range
decided to go with kitchenaid. folks i know that had bosch were never that satisfied. from my dishwasher research in concluded they weren't as good as miele. not that i think kitchenaid is perfect. guess i kind of decided to go with the devil i know vs the devil i don't. it looks nice anyway. i can tell myself i'm saving money versus the other brands i was thinking about. everyone was right. doing a stand alone would be less than optimal. anyway so far my architect series refrigerator that i purchased in 2015 has had zero repairs which is better than the previous kitchenaid refrigerator. regardless of the height difference there would be a noticable gap between the stove and the countertop. not sure i want to introduce that.Quote:
Originally Posted by j44ke
See, that range is not a good fit for the counter. Look at the edges of the counter - they are higher than the stove top. I bet the edges of the counter along the area where the burners are located is going to get washed with heat from the burners - especially when a large pot or pan is on the burner - and the formica or whatever that plastic is will slowly brown and crack. That looks like a slide-in used in a slot for a free standing stove. Or rather, a front-control stove used in a slot where a rear control stand alone stove was located.Quote:
Originally Posted by fastupslowdown
well i called kitchenaid so i felt reasonably confident. my counter doesn't look like that.Attachment 114571Quote:
Originally Posted by j44ke
I was just using it as an example of a bad installation. Brand-agnostic critique.Quote:
Originally Posted by fastupslowdown
was just showing you for your professional opinion. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by j44ke
looks wise i think the new unit is an upgrade. whether i'm happy with it only time will tell. both units are no longer functioning optimally so there's that
Looks are an upgrade for sure! Not an expert, I just spent most of the last year making my head hurt by looking at appliances, measuring, trying, kicking, measuring, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by fastupslowdown
BTW on FisherPaykel drawer dishwashers - we almost had to get the drawers because they are in the island and have to be legless. So because of interior space concerns, we got two of them, one for dishes and one for pots or one for dishes and one for glassware or whatever. And I went to Fisher/Paykel at the A&D Building for a demo, and they seemed to work well there. Equal to our full sized Bosch. There is a big advantage to being a vegetarian when it comes to dishwashers. Broccoli et al really don't test a dishwasher like a turkey or t-bone or whatever massive grease and fat extruders meat eaters throw into their dishwashers.
If they don't work, we'll put the dishes outside and let the bears clean them off.
And further FYI, both Appliance Parts Pros.com Discount Appliance Parts – Since 1999 and Genuine Replacement Parts | Fast Shipping | Huge Selection | eReplacement Parts have allowed me to search out things like Bosch inside oven door w/springs and hinges replacements and Delonghi water pump for super automatic coffee machines and rebuild equipment that I might have otherwise replaced. And only one electrical fire! I am a lot better at it now than I was then though, but that Saeco espresso machine had to go into the dumpster.
-- Tammy loves to prepare with gas...
we have limited space and propane...
bosh slide in prof with large overhead direct fan/vent up through the ceiling to outside..
ronnie
Reviving this oldie for a quick question.
We're finally (finally!) getting the hood installed that we planned on pre-Covid.
The kitchen has dropped cupboards, with about a 10" gap from the top of the cupboards to the ceiling.
The installer is inclined to run the venting 4' horizontally through the pantry behind the stove and out the back wall of the house. His motivations are that it's the only way to hide the venting without additional remodeling, and you avoid cutting a hole in the roof.
I'm not all that worried about a little bit of venting showing above the cupboard if the vertical install is a better idea. The vertical stack would be really short, probably 3 feet or so. This is a cold part of the house in a cold climate. My gut says it's going to be easier to move hot air vertically than horizontally, along with all the junk that might condense in a cold horizontal run.
Experiences, opinions, rants?
Imo if not concerned with the visual of the vent go with the vertical. A roof vent is easily flashed by any competent tradesman.