Kirk Frameworks

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Originally Posted by Dave Kirk

Hey Hansen,

Thanks for writing.

The orange bike uses normal OS tubes (1 1/8" top and 1 1/4" down tubes) but the Big Blue Bike (BBB) uses the XL stuff.

Yes it's perfectly acceptable to use a top tube as a seat tube assuming the butt lengths work out properly for both good solid clamping of the seat post and a long enough butt at the BB end. The seat tube in the BBB is 953 and is most often used as a downtube. It has long butts so both ends work out well and it's silly thin in the middle to keep the weight in check. It works very well.

One could use a heavier wall and end up with a more common post size but the tubes are more than strong enough even with the very thin walls so I'm opting to cut down the weight.

What do you think?

Dave

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Sounds good to me! I guess in the end since there's no way to use a 27.2 post in a 31.7 ST without either a shim or a pressed in collar using a 30.0 or a 30.6 post really isn't much difference.
I'm contemplating using a 31.7 ST for my next project but being that it would be 54cm I think I would end up with no more than 80mm for the butt length at the BB and 50-60 mm at the seat lug end. Is that sufficient assuming use of a clamp on front derailleur?

Thanks,
Hansen

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Originally Posted by Lionel

Humm. My current supplier for that diameter is WR Compositi. But Edge would be good ;)

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Both good options but not the direction I am going.

Dave

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Originally Posted by suhacycles

Sounds good to me! I guess in the end since there's no way to use a 27.2 post in a 31.7 ST without either a shim or a pressed in collar using a 30.0 or a 30.6 post really isn't much difference.
I'm contemplating using a 31.7 ST for my next project but being that it would be 54cm I think I would end up with no more than 80mm for the butt length at the BB and 50-60 mm at the seat lug end. Is that sufficient assuming use of a clamp on front derailleur?

Thanks,
Hansen

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I think the seat tube's robustness under the FD clamp will depend greatly on the wall thickness of the tube and it's alloy. If the tube is very hard (953, XCR) then even with the clamp on the thin section of tube I doubt you would have any issue. Use a softer alloy and get heavy handed with the clamp and I suppose you could have an issue.

Dave

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Originally Posted by Dave Kirk

Both good options but not the direction I am going.

Dave

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Man of mystery... What's the ETA for it and will there be several setback options?

Ok.. call me a dork. I just re-read this thread again. What struck me this time around was how much thought, science/math and good old fashioned testing you put into your designs. That's very cool. And now I see how it emphasizes your design philosophy that nothing is there without a reason. ( i'm kinda slow)

While reading, I wondered if frame builders can look at a bike and get a pretty good sense of how that'd bike would ride and handle?

I actually just came to tell you that I love that green bike from FNL and got sucked in. Kinda sad I guess but makes nice morning coffee and sunrise reading. I look forward to more of your well expressed and reasoned posts and surprises :) Thanks. Now off to work work.. boo

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Originally Posted by Dave Kirk

I think the seat tube's robustness under the FD clamp will depend greatly on the wall thickness of the tube and it's alloy. If the tube is very hard (953, XCR) then even with the clamp on the thin section of tube I doubt you would have any issue. Use a softer alloy and get heavy handed with the clamp and I suppose you could have an issue.

Dave

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Hmm... sounds like 0.5 mm of Zona wouldn't have as nice a margin of safety so perhaps I need to rethink...

Grazie,
Hansen

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Originally Posted by roguedog

Ok.. call me a dork. I just re-read this thread again. What struck me this time around was how much thought, science/math and good old fashioned testing you put into your designs. That's very cool. And now I see how it emphasizes your design philosophy that nothing is there without a reason. ( i'm kinda slow)

While reading, I wondered if frame builders can look at a bike and get a pretty good sense of how that'd bike would ride and handle?

I actually just came to tell you that I love that green bike from FNL and got sucked in. Kinda sad I guess but makes nice morning coffee and sunrise reading. I look forward to more of your well expressed and reasoned posts and surprises :) Thanks. Now off to work work.. boo

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Hey Mr. Rogue,

First let me just say this - you are a dork.......... and welcome to dork club. You are in good company.

Thanks for the note. You made my day with this. You know - I realize pragmatism is not the best way to sell stuff but pragmatic is what I am and it comes out in my work and to try to pretend otherwise will in the end be a disservice to both my clients and me. I fully grasp that if somehow I could change my stripes and be more 'cool' that my work might attract those that want the coolest and I might sell more bikes. But that would be like asking me to be taller - ain't gonna happen. Instead I'm pleased that there seem to be enough folks out there that appreciate what I do, how I do it, and why I do it a given way that I don't need to try to be someone else. FWIW it only took me 45 years to figure that out. I'm kinda slow too.

I think you are right - I think that one can tell a lot about how a bike will feel and behave by looking at it and it's spec sheet. I would be foolish to imply that I can tell subtle things that can make or break the way a bike feels by the specs but one can certainly get a general impression without ever throwing a leg over it. But, in the end, nothing speaks as loud as experience and it's impossible to tell what a given bike will REALLY feel like without riding it. For this reason I always got a kick out of folks telling me that my designs will, or more often won't, work based on the fact that they saw a photo of one on the web. This is especially true with my Serotta DKS design and the current Terraplane. It doesn't happen much any more but for awhile there is was an everyday deal. I think they got bored of me :) Luckily the customers haven't and are enjoying their bikes.

Thanks again - I need to get back to the bench.

Dave

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Originally Posted by Dave Kirk

Hey Mr. Rogue,

First let me just say this - you are a dork.......... and welcome to dork club. You are in good company.

Thanks for the note. You made my day with this. You know - I realize pragmatism is not the best way to sell stuff but pragmatic is what I am and it comes out in my work and to try to pretend otherwise will in the end be a disservice to both my clients and me. I fully grasp that if somehow I could change my stripes and be more 'cool' that my work might attract those that want the coolest and I might sell more bikes. But that would be like asking me to be taller - ain't gonna happen. Instead I'm pleased that there seem to be enough folks out there that appreciate what I do, how I do it, and why I do it a given way that I don't need to try to be someone else. FWIW it only took me 45 years to figure that out. I'm kinda slow too.

I think you are right - I think that one can tell a lot about how a bike will feel and behave by looking at it and it's spec sheet. I would be foolish to imply that I can tell subtle things that can make or break the way a bike feels by the specs but one can certainly get a general impression without ever throwing a leg over it. But, in the end, nothing speaks as loud as experience and it's impossible to tell what a given bike will REALLY feel like without riding it. For this reason I always got a kick out of folks telling me that my designs will, or more often won't, work based on the fact that they saw a photo of one on the web. This is especially true with my Serotta DKS design and the current Terraplane. It doesn't happen much any more but for awhile there is was an everyday deal. I think they got bored of me :) Luckily the customers haven't and are enjoying their bikes.

Thanks again - I need to get back to the bench.

Dave

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Dave, pragmatic you may be but cool you really are! What comes out of your garage is 11 on the cool scale. The Terraplane was/is cool and because of a pic on the web, I just knew it would work. It did!

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Originally Posted by Dave Thompson

Dave, pragmatic you may be but cool you really are! What comes out of your garage is 11 on the cool scale. The Terraplane was/is cool and because of a pic on the web, I just knew it would work. It did!

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Hello David - great to hear from you and thanks for the kind words.

For those of you that don't know Dave Thompson was Kirk Frameworks customer #1 and I have to say you never forget your first time. Thanks for being there from the beginning David. You'll always be the first and that's perfect by me.

Any chance we'll see you in Texas? It would be good to catch up and get you a fresh T shirt.

Dave

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Originally Posted by suhacycles

Sounds good to me! I guess in the end since there's no way to use a 27.2 post in a 31.7 ST without either a shim or a pressed in collar using a 30.0 or a 30.6 post really isn't much difference.
I'm contemplating using a 31.7 ST for my next project but being that it would be 54cm I think I would end up with no more than 80mm for the butt length at the BB and 50-60 mm at the seat lug end. Is that sufficient assuming use of a clamp on front derailleur?

Thanks,
Hansen

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Life 31.7 seat tube part # SFLM13635 is .8/5 with 150mm of .8 so a braze on or clamp will be sweet
Clamps work fine on .5
Note: I have had some Life seat tubes come in with only 100mm of butt so best check them before use.
I thrashed this all out in 2004 when designing this lug set and the 30.6 post was the best out come.

I will add
it is cool that Dave is working on another US made 30.6 post.
Seeing Dave Kirk's version of my XL tube lug set is super cool
nice Davissimo elements

We live in happy times.

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Originally Posted by Dazza

.......................

I will add
it is cool that Dave is working on another US made 30.6 post.
Seeing Dave Kirk's version of my XL tube lug set is super cool
nice Davissimo elements

We live in happy times.

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Yes - I am working with one of the best carbon houses in the US on the post and we'll see where is goes.

I agree - we live in good times for the handbuilt bike.

Dave

Is Carl Strong getting into the bicycle component biz?

That would be cool but I think Carl's plate is more than full.

Dave

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Originally Posted by Dave Kirk

Hey Mr. Rogue,

First let me just say this - you are a dork.......... and welcome to dork club. You are in good company.

Thanks for the note. You made my day with this. You know - I realize pragmatism is not the best way to sell stuff but pragmatic is what I am and it comes out in my work and to try to pretend otherwise will in the end be a disservice to both my clients and me. I fully grasp that if somehow I could change my stripes and be more 'cool' that my work might attract those that want the coolest and I might sell more bikes. But that would be like asking me to be taller - ain't gonna happen. Instead I'm pleased that there seem to be enough folks out there that appreciate what I do, how I do it, and why I do it a given way that I don't need to try to be someone else. FWIW it only took me 45 years to figure that out. I'm kinda slow too.

I think you are right - I think that one can tell a lot about how a bike will feel and behave by looking at it and it's spec sheet. I would be foolish to imply that I can tell subtle things that can make or break the way a bike feels by the specs but one can certainly get a general impression without ever throwing a leg over it. But, in the end, nothing speaks as loud as experience and it's impossible to tell what a given bike will REALLY feel like without riding it. For this reason I always got a kick out of folks telling me that my designs will, or more often won't, work based on the fact that they saw a photo of one on the web. This is especially true with my Serotta DKS design and the current Terraplane. It doesn't happen much any more but for awhile there is was an everyday deal. I think they got bored of me :) Luckily the customers haven't and are enjoying their bikes.

Thanks again - I need to get back to the bench.

Dave

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Glad I made your day. I had a small twinge later that I might have actually offended you. I love show too but in the end it's about how the bikes rides and how it works with you as the rider. Kinda like golf.. drive for show but putt for dough. :D I learned that on the last bike I got. Wasn't too hot on the paint job but I got it, put it together. And man, did my eyes get opened. I love that bike and I love how it looks now too. I'm now kinda addicted..

Anyway, keep warm up there in MT.

PS. Dazza's lugs rock on that blue bike. Actually Dazza's lugs just friggin rock... speaking of addiction.

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Originally Posted by roguedog

Glad I made your day. I had a small twinge later that I might have actually offended you. I love show too but in the end it's about how the bikes rides and how it works with you as the rider. Kinda like golf.. drive for show but putt for dough. :D I learned that on the last bike I got. Wasn't too hot on the paint job but I got it, put it together. And man, did my eyes get opened. I love that bike and I love how it looks now too. I'm now kinda addicted..

Anyway, keep warm up there in MT.

PS. Dazza's lugs rock on that blue bike. Actually Dazza's lugs just friggin rock... speaking of addiction.

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No offense taken - so no worries. I think you and I are on the same page.

Thanks again,

dave

Just a quick note to out my interview with Bike Rumor posted today. As you may know many have taken part and yesterday it was my turn. Be sure to check out the site and the other interviews - some good reading there.

Kirk Bike Rumor


Dave

It's about time to travel if for no other reason than most all the boxes are checked. For those of you that will be in Austin - we look forward to seeing you. For those who can't make it we hope you can next time.

Our forecast for Bozeman shows heavy snow and a high of 5° tomorrow so we are leaving at the right time for some sun and warmth. The forecast calls for near 80° in Texas over the weekend. Karin asked a good and silly question when we saw the weather - "what the hell will we wear?". We are going to have to dig out some light shirts and put away the wool. Sounds like a hardship we can endure.

Safe travels to all,

Dave

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5054/...048578f0_b.jpg

Just a quick note of thanks for the warm welcome given to Karin and me. It was good to put faces to the screen names and have real life conversations with so many Salon folk. So thanks again.

Don't be a stranger.

Dave

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Dave, tell us how many compliments you received on the shipping box. Don't be shy.

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Originally Posted by jamesand

Dave, tell us how many compliments you received on the shipping box. Don't be shy.

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Plenty thank you. I had customers looking at my bikes and builders taking photos of the crate.

The best by far was from an old hardened looking guy who worked for the decorator. It was tear down time on Sunday and he went by while pulling down curtain and rod and stopped and stared at me. It seemed odd so I asked if I was in the way or something. He replied with "your crate may be the best I've ever seen". I responded with something like "and I image you might have seen a few". He smiled and said "yep....... just a few few".

A few minutes later he passed by again and I think was feeling a bit more comfortable and with a big sly smile said with a heavy spanish accent "you should forget about these stupid bikes and start making crates - you'd be a millionaire!". He may have been the smartest one in the room.

Dave

yeah rich, but splinters and sawdust and warpage oh my!


wrt show- i always enjoy my annual visit with DK and KK, even if the parting happens over and over.

Moment to moment NAHBS thoughts -

Dave

Kirk Frameworks Custom Bicycles

Hey welcome back. It was way too quiet around these parts without you all.

Nice article and blog write up.

dave - these are awesome closing thoughts penned here atmo.

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Originally Posted by e-RICHIE

dave - these are awesome closing thoughts penned here atmo.

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Thanks.

You know I think I'm a better builder than writer and sometimes I think maybe I should stick with what I'm good at and let others take care of the writing.

I've had a few folks ask me why I'm so down on the show and this came as a surprise to me as I didn't think I'd come off as so negative. I certainly didn't intend to give that impression. In the end I think it can be, at least for me, difficult to express the mixed feelings I have for the show. First that it absolutely rocks and that I look forward each year to doing it and at the same time that it can, at times, be disappointing. I love it and find it frustrating at the same time. Frankly if I didn't feel so strongly about it I'd write it off and stay home. But I don't, so I don't.

I feel it's important to share both the positive and negative feelings about the event. One without the other is at best dishonest and is certainly ineffective at encouraging change. Only by saying what we builders (customers) want will we possibly get what we want. To not ask is just silly and means that we will get what we deserve.

I would ask that NAHBS move back toward being more builder-centric so that it's a more effective way of using my limited funds. But asking for this does not mean that I think the show sucks. I think the show rocks and at the same time that it, like every event, has room to improve and that the only way for it to change in the direction i personally wish for to to ask.

Thanks for reading,

dave

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Originally Posted by Dave Kirk

Frankly if I didn't feel so strongly about it I'd write it off and stay home. But I don't, so I don't.

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happycampyer said it best a few weeks ago, but said it in french atmo -
The one who loves well, punishes well.
and i would agree.
if were weren't so passionate about it, we'd have clammed up, or left, long ago.

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Originally Posted by Dave Kirk

Thanks.

You know I think I'm a better builder than writer and sometimes I think maybe I should stick with what I'm good at and let others take care of the writing.

I've had a few folks ask me why I'm so down on the show and this came as a surprise to me as I didn't think I'd come off as so negative. I certainly didn't intend to give that impression. In the end I think it can be, at least for me, difficult to express the mixed feelings I have for the show. First that it absolutely rocks and that I look forward each year to doing it and at the same time that it can, at times, be disappointing. I love it and find it frustrating at the same time. Frankly if I didn't feel so strongly about it I'd write it off and stay home. But I don't, so I don't.

I feel it's important to share both the positive and negative feelings about the event. One without the other is at best dishonest and is certainly ineffective at encouraging change. Only by saying what we builders (customers) want will we possibly get what we want. To not ask is just silly and means that we will get what we deserve.

I would ask that NAHBS move back toward being more builder-centric so that it's a more effective way of using my limited funds. But asking for this does not mean that I think the show sucks. I think the show rocks and at the same time that it, like every event, has room to improve and that the only way for it to change in the direction i personally wish for to to ask.

Thanks for reading,

dave

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Hi Dave,

Great to hear your thoughts. It also means you care about it enough to want to help the show improve, and that means a lot.

It's been too long since I've checked in and seeing as it's now spring I thought it was time.

With spring comes lots of snow here in Montana. We woke up to about 8" at the house this morning and it snowed much of the day. If I hadn't torn a calf muscle the other day I might have played hooky and gone up to the hill and surfed around in the 16" of fresh they got last night and today. Karin worked up there all day and will be home soon with stories about how it wasn't really all that good and how I didn't miss much. She's a good girl.

Spring also brings the bald eagles back to the area. They are everywhere in the trees and I never tire of seeing them. Sometimes when out for spring rides they will look down at you from the trees with this look in their eyes like they think you look tasty. I try to look anything but tasty and so far it's working for me.

With the show in the rear view mirror I'm back putting in long hours at the bench and my painter JB has been putting out art for me. This white w/red came back today and I really like it.

Back to the bench,

Dave

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5175/...c5007d31_b.jpg
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The more white Kirks I see the more I like the look. Can't quite tell if that's a pearl white or just a really shiny solid. Question (that isn't completely self-serving), what colors show off lug work the best?

Great photos of the eagles too. I recall summers in East Texas when I was growing up when we'd see a couple now and then near the water's edge. Always took their lead and started fishing in the same area.

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Originally Posted by cuda2k

The more white Kirks I see the more I like the look. Can't quite tell if that's a pearl white or just a really shiny solid. Question (that isn't completely self-serving), what colors show off lug work the best?

Great photos of the eagles too. I recall summers in East Texas when I was growing up when we'd see a couple now and then near the water's edge. Always took their lead and started fishing in the same area.

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That is a very good question and I suppose the answer is 'it depends'.

I've attached seat cluster photos with different paint schemes. They all show the lugwork in different ways. In general I'd say that mid range colors (not black - not white) show the work better than the extremes but at the same time it will depend on the light source. If the bike is black and it's out in the bright sun it can show of the lugs well. Bring it indoors and you might not even notice it even has lugs.

At the same time one can show off the lugs by using contrasting or complimentary colors and/or lug lining pinstripes. You can get stuff to really pop or for it to be subtle and to draw you in.

A good painter can really get the effect he wants.

Dave

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Dave:

First off, what a wonderful thread. I'm not surprised that you are so clear and thoughtful in your responses. You are that way verbally

Second........as a customer who still rides one of your bikes ( you may remember the Fixie with the stainless faceplates on the rear dropout, filet brazed and the candy apple red with creme and blue pinstripe.....Joe bell "puss" paint job), let me reiterate what a pleasure the whole experience was........

Finally, I've always wondered a few things......

1.) knowing you are constantly learning and growing....any thought on what you would have done different on my bike?

2.) recognizing that the paint job is the thing a buyer has the most control over, and many seem to want to overdo it, do you ever veto a paint job?, how often do you get the bike back and...........have a less than positive reaction?

Thanks for the great thread.

Len

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Originally Posted by Len J

Dave:

First off, what a wonderful thread. I'm not surprised that you are so clear and thoughtful in your responses. You are that way verbally

Second........as a customer who still rides one of your bikes ( you may remember the Fixie with the stainless faceplates on the rear dropout, filet brazed and the candy apple red with creme and blue pinstripe.....Joe bell "puss" paint job), let me reiterate what a pleasure the whole experience was........

Finally, I've always wondered a few things......

1.) knowing you are constantly learning and growing....any thought on what you would have done different on my bike?

2.) recognizing that the paint job is the thing a buyer has the most control over, and many seem to want to overdo it, do you ever veto a paint job?, how often do you get the bike back and...........have a less than positive reaction?

Thanks for the great thread.

Len

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Hey Len,

Very good to hear from you - thanks for chiming in.

To answer your questions -

1) You are correct - I do feel like I am constantly learning and growing. At this point in my learning curve this learning effects the process more than it does the end results. By that I mean that I keep learning and teaching myself new tricks that make everything from customer interaction to the build itself easier/quicker/more precise/more fun............. etc. The end product changes little - it's more the path I take to get there. So in the case of your bike I would have used my new bending techniques to bend the Terraplane stays and some new finishing tricks I've taught myself to get the fillets just so. I can think of no changes i would make in what you ended up with.

2) Again you are correct - my customers can have almost any paint scheme they might want. In a very limited number of cases JB and I both do our level best to talk the folks off the ledge and steer them toward a paint scheme that they will still love years from now. I know some will say that I should more tightly control the paint jobs so that we don't get any unusual paint jobs out there and I understand their point but when push comes to shove I don't want to be the 'Paint Nazi" (think soup nazi) and tell the owner that they can't have what they truly want. Does this chase some potential customer away? I suppose it might. But I still end up with plenty of work so I feel no need to disappoint customers by telling them that they can only have paint schemes that I personally like. If a potential customer is chased away because they saw a Kirk out there that had paint they didn't like then I doubt they really wanted my work that badly anyway. JB and I will guide and hand hold as best we can and this results in 99% of the paint jobs being something I'm excited to show and 1% giving me that feeling of "really - that is what you want?" I can tell you that the very small number of bikes I'm not so excited about are loved by their owners. Beauty really is in the eye of the beholder in my opinion. The interesting thing is that in most cases the customer has ideas of what they want and they ask that JB and I give them honest feedback because the customer wants JB and I to like it as much as they do. It feels good knowing that they want us to like it as much as they do.

I also like that the customers that seem to love their paint the most are the ones that tell us the basic things - like what colors they like/dislike and what types of schemes they like/dislike (panels/fades/pinstripes...etc.) and then set us free to do what we think is best and surprise them. I end up with a lot of very happy customers this way.



Thanks for the questions and for reading the thread. This smoked out deal is still one the the best things going.

Keep enjoying that pretty bike of yours.


Dave

Thanks Dave...appreciate it.

len

Mr. Kirk can you explain the lining of the lugs of the green and gold bike you posted on FNL #107. It looks like a paint pen because they are so thin. I'm a hobby builder and my friend is going to shoot my frame in a House of Color candy red over a silver base, with black linings. He has paint for pen stripping, but were not sure if linings are masked, free hand with a quill, or a paint pen of some sort.

Thanks
Tim

Hey Tim Dude,

Thank you for the question.

I of course am not the guy that does that fine work. I wish I had that skill but that is the work of Joe Bell. It is so even and perfect that it seems like it must be some kind of paint pen but JB tells me it's not. He tells me it's a special pin striping brush/tool. He tells me that the tool doesn't make it easy but instead makes it doable. I'm wowed every time I get a frameset back and go over it. The stripes are just too even and perfect to be made by hand - yet they are.

Here are a few more examples of JB's work. Thanks again,

dave

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And here is a shot of the gold pinstripes* in action yesterday. (It's nice when you can drop someone on the last climb, even nicer when he compliments the beauty of your frameset twice beforehand.)

Attachment 31191

*Unless I am mistaken. Sure looks like my frame (040709), though there may be another like it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dave Kirk

...

When I started Kirk Frameworks I had very little money and did not want to barrow a dime to launch the business so I could not afford to buy a frame jig. So I worked a bit backward to solve the problem. Instead of making a jig that would hold the tubes I made an infinitely adjustable front triangle that I could set to the needed specs and then, using V blocks and C clamps, build a temporary jig around the adjustable around that front end. I would then remove the dummy triangle and put the actual tubes in place and voila! - I had a bike. I think the dummy front triangle was the most accurate thing I've ever used and it cost about $50. It was very slow to set up but I had lots of time so it worked well. I think I built the first 100ish frames on that non-jig. In the interest of speeding things up I eventually bought an Anvil but I keep the original just in case.

dave

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Hey Dave,

Going way back in this thread for another question. I've seen quite a few pictures of the t-slot table and V blocks but none of the "infinitely adjustable front triangle". Any chance I (we) can get a look at it?

Thanks,

Jayme

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Originally Posted by geoffk

And here is a shot of the gold pinstripes* in action yesterday. (It's nice when you can drop someone on the last climb, even nicer when he compliments the beauty of your frameset twice beforehand.)

Attachment 31191

*Unless I am mistaken. Sure looks like my frame (040709), though there may be another like it.

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How cool is that? I think that is indeed the same bike. What event did you do?

Dave

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jayme

Hey Dave,

Going way back in this thread for another question. I've seen quite a few pictures of the t-slot table and V blocks but none of the "infinitely adjustable front triangle". Any chance I (we) can get a look at it?

Thanks,

Jayme

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That is way back. I'm sure I don't have photos of that thing lying around but I could pull it out of the basement and snap a few shots if you like. let me know.

dave

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dave Kirk

That is way back. I'm sure I don't have photos of that thing lying around but I could pull it out of the basement and snap a few shots if you like. let me know.

dave

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That would be fantastic. I think it would benefit a lot of aspiring effbuilders to see how simply you can get started (minus all the years building Serottas).

Thanks again,

Jayme