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Well as vague as a 'long time' is as a measure of time, removing the sanctions will reduce that amount of time substantially. Once the United Nations sanctions are lifted there is very little chance of them being reintroduced. So when Iran strays from its agreement there will be basically no effective punitive measures.Quote:
Originally Posted by edoz
Thanks for your service. I could not have more respect for folks that serve their country in the military.Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanEasley
Discussions such as these are not limited to folks that have visited these countries or to folks that have served in the military.
Don't put words in my mouth. It's childish and there's no reason for straw man arguments here in an objective discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daltex
What you seem not to realize is that it's specifically because of people that have your myopic view of the world that we have ISIS, Hezbollah, Al Queda/Muj/Taliban, Boko Haram, etc. Neoconservatism is on its deathbed. We can only hope that the word will eventually only be muttered in spite.
I'm sure you're just as afraid of the sovereign citizens movement in Texas, right? Because you should be...they're a legitimate threat.
I may have agreed with some of your points before the framework came out. But looks like we got a surprisingly great deal. Hate to throw cold water on a lively discussion but a couple of things:Quote:
Originally Posted by Daltex
1. Best consumer of arms isn't Israel. They're way down the list. Arms Sales By The US And Russia - Business Insider
2. The end of sanctions doesn't apply to human rights and terrorism sanctions. Only nuclear sanctions. So whether they hang people or hold people without trial or support terrorist groups around the world isn't entirely relevant re: this deal.
3. The sanctions -- through a new UN security council resolution that all of the powers have agreed on and are writing before June's deadline -- will have a snapback provision. Iran violates, they automatically go back into effect.
4. The sanctions regime is breaking anyway. If no deal, there's nothing to really stop Asian countries from foreign direct investment. Look at how international support for the Cuban sanctions went.
5. Nuclear knowledge can't be destroyed despite the attempted assassination campaign of Iran's nuclear scientists. Worst case, Iran is just another power (like a couple of others among whom are several of our allies) who could go nuclear if they wanted to. This deal if implemented will reduce the breakout time from a couple of months to well over a year.
6. Reducing their nuclear sites from 4 to 1 is probably as good as you're going to get.
7. Iranian economic integration with the outside world is going to benefit everyone EXCEPT the Islamists at the top. Want to have a more responsible government there? Integration seems to work better than isolation. Look at Cuba, China, Vietnam, and the former USSR.
More importantly... what about the future of the Iranian cycling scene? Are they going to dominate now that they can get out and race more or is their performance on the Asia Tour more to do with drug use?
I have a John Kerry story: years ago I spent Summers on Martha's Vineyard. I was a young buck doing tree-work, landscaping, bartending, parties, beaches, boats, and girls. Anyway: there was an absolutely gorgeous girl working in a local shop. She was form Florida, new to the island, and insanely beautiful. Needless to say, I was interested. I made inroads, I was getting there. Details aside, I was just about in. So one eve I popped into a local shmancy restaurant where my buddies worked and I drank for free, and who do I see having dinner w/my dreamgirl? Mr Senator. I don't care what knd of bike he rides, if he solves world hunger, world peace, and whatever else it is politicians say they're gonna do - F him.
Gotta wonder if images like this show up on Iranian cycling websites. We all have our skeletons and embarrassing moments. BTW this was 1981 not 1921. If you look hard enough you'll find something to make anyone look bad.
Stop with the hanging pictures please.
I can't believe this thread is still open. It drives a wedge in a group that is likely aligned on the vast majority of issues and what is important in life. I like riding bikes, working on them, and spending time with people with the same likes. I have opinions on world events but I can't recall the last time they came up on a group ride.
I agree, 100%. Most rational people agree on 99% of stuff, yet it's a few hot button issues that drive the wedge. And it's stupid. Threads like this always devolve into a pissing match. It starts with a dissenting view, then people claiming expertise or inside knowledge followed by links to some scholarly piece (pretty easy to find one that backs up any view) that reaffirms one's opinion. Then you get people referring to others as "fucktards" (who's childish now? enough with the -tard bullshit). Despite how smart you think you are, or how many likes you've received, you are not going to change anyone's mind about middle east politics on a bike forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbill
1. No one makes you read the thread in OTQuote:
Originally Posted by Craven Moorehead
2. You are essentially requesting self-censorship which can be a bad thing where everything eventually is off limits. (like the juvenile nature of your screen name. Am i being ironic or a hypocrite?)
I never said the thread shouldn't have been started, I am just surprised it stayed open once it got a bit personal. And predicating an insult by writing "it's not personal" doesn't count. These political threads can be interesting to read, but when people get a little too passionate they tend to go off the rails a bit. They are also useful for profiling purposes; you can see what members are capable of different perspectives and those that like to lecture and speak down to people.Quote:
Originally Posted by vertical_doug
Judging by the recurrence of the subject I think Daltex's opinion is blinded by how gays are treated in Iran. In my opinion maintaining sanctions is the best way to maintain the cultural isolation that lead to these atrocities being still perpetrated in 2015.
sounds like the nuclear treaty will only deal with sanctions that were for nuclear activity
also idk how accurate this is but apparently if someone gets sex reassignment surgery then they are free to marry whom they wouldn't be otherwise...mostly religious taboo stuff.
kinda sounds like people aren't executed for being gay as much daltex might be reading in some places...
LGBT rights in Iran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Executions under Iran's sodomy/homosexual laws are quite common per Human Rights Watch. That may be a better source than Wikipedia. But I'm sure we all agree one legal execution under a country's anti-gay laws is too many. But I've read elsewhere about their 'workaround' of sexual reassignment surgery. Which is in fact quite common in Iran. The two seem to be at conflict with each other, who knows?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cookietruck
Anyway, I hoped this thread wouldn've died right after Mainemike's 'John Kerry cock-blocked me' story. Because frankly, I can't see anything ever being more entertaining than that. Thanks Mainemike I laughed out loud for 10 minutes. Great story!
These threads get heated, and sometime it may look personal. But it's the same bunch of guys participating (including me). I believe none of us take it personal. And I'll add I learn something that I didn't know every time. It's all in good fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Craven Moorehead
I'm just hoping we can merge this thread with the "She Pleads Not Guilty" thread across the way. Lots of energy being expended in both of those, so it makes sense to put those two groups of folks in the same room - I'm sure the conversation is bound to be interesting.
I have a friend who insists on talking about religion and politics in social gatherings, in an attempt to break the taboo against discussing these things in polite company. He does it in, I think, a good way and he personally is good at not getting emotional when tempers get going. Makes for an interesting dinner guest. Rubs most people wrong, but I personally enjoy having him around to spur conversation, and I always learn a lot from the group, provided that people will engage. He is now the dean of a prominent US law school.
WTF- Running into an image like this on this forum is crossing the line- I can check in and out of the discussions but an image like this does not go away when I close the computer. The intended point is trite and the image serves no purpose----here, in a bike forum, hardly a place for activist's call to action---- other than denying the dignity of a human being used as a coarse prop to a discussion among the peanut gallery. Shit I really didn't need to see that.Quote:
Originally Posted by XR2
While the thread is open I'll share another John Kerry story. It's not as good as Mainemike's.
Back during the '04 campaign, a friend and captain of a local PD in the area's most affluent suburb told me the Kerry's people contacted the dept to get background checks on some top donors. They were looking for a residence to hold a fundraising dinner. So they start going down the list...
(paraphrasing)
We'd like to have it here.
PD: He's under investigation for mortgage fraud
Ok, then, how about this donor?
PD: They are under surveillance currently for possible drug dealing
Ok, then, this one?
PD: He's on your federal terror watch list.
Shit....
awkward silence...
They screened out 8 donors before they found one that was 'clean'.
Same visit, I recall folks upset because Theresa was trying to shut down some of the Country Club Plaza so she could go shopping.
Honest question here -- did you have the same reaction to the one posted by Daltex, which is what XR2's posting was in response to? BTW, I agree that the image made me pretty queasy.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenNMotion
Both of those photos are, to put it mildly, entirely inappropriate. WTF purpose do either serve? You think yer making some sort of eye opening point, and we alls gonna re-think something? Unbelievable.
I had the same reaction to both--highly inappropriate, manipulative, exploitative, not particularly relevant to the conversation, and done in extremely poor taste and even worse judgment.Quote:
Originally Posted by ericpmoss
Shame on them both.
Well, I'm not trying to shame anyone, but I know it's human nature that when one believes something *very* strongly, it seems entirely justified to bring on the shock and awe, yet be aghast when the other guy is able to match in kind. I have to check myself all the time, because it's very easy to say "Yeah, but look what *else* they do.", whether or not it's germane.Quote:
Originally Posted by C.Dyer
I only saw the latter image which was jarring. I don't need to point fingers, I think I could hang and ride (maybe off the back) with just about anybody here and have a great afternoon. But I also would appreciate some consideration in the forum to some basic level of a community standard. My skin is pretty thick for political rants that I don't agree with, and I can choose to ignore any thread- but I have no warning running across that shit, I don't see the purpose-- with all respect it's not "all in fun" as someone said earlier. A lively argument- sure go for it, if it pisses me off I can close it. But images like those that come with no warning fuck up what is normally an enjoyable escape for me in VS. I've caught myself being out of line sometimes, so glass houses and all that, but I would request a little commonsense when posting- a little moment of self-awareness before hitting the send button with provocative content. {insert beer and pegoretti images here}
Incorrect. At that point in the conversation the point was being put forward that Iran was a nice place to visit, and I did not realize because I've never been there. Go re-read the context.Quote:
Originally Posted by C.Dyer
I stand by my point, that any government that acts in such a barbaric was as seen in the pictures may not be ready to handle a nuclear bomb.
That other picture, that I did not post, is not in context, not comparable in any way shape or form. Something that happened in U.S. in 1982 as part of a unique crime is in no way comparable to weekly Government Executions of adulterers, gay folk, and people that choose to leave a faith. The 2nd picture was out of context, offensive, and meaningless in relation to the discussion.
I'm sorry but for me the context of either image is irrelevant. The images are inappropriate here in the VS forum in my opinion. I don't care about either side of whatever debate is being exchanged. There are plenty of places you can take a discussion like this and upload whatever the hell you want, but I really don't want to see tortured bodies in here- my VS, your VS, our VS. If people are so passionate about a point of view or belief and you feel a point needs to be made by an image that is truly deeply shocking then at least put it in a link with a warning. In my opinion the "point" of the posts seemed to be about shock, not supporting any argument--- and in any case way over the line of what I (would hope to be) acceptable here. Having said my piece a few times now, I'm out. I really (really) like your bikes Glenn but I hope both you guys can find another outlet for the illustrated provocative off-topic stuff. Thanks for understanding, even if maybe you don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daltex
the pictures are inappropriate for several reasonsQuote:
Originally Posted by Daltex
one of them being, we have no idea where the pictures came from...i can't look at those 6 guys hanging and know if they were gay, or murderers, or rapists or petty thiefs or if they are even iranian...
the second picture well, we all know what has and can go down in the south states of the good 'ol USA, so i can understand that one a little more...
Yeah, Iran is a wonderful safe place and the southern U.S. is a chronic human rights abuser fascist state.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cookietruck
Seriously, how does one become this ignorant of reality?
what do you know about the reality of the US and human rights?Quote:
Originally Posted by Daltex
it's been pointed out in plenty of posts in this thread. the US is just as much of a terrorist organization as anyone else...
whats the deal? you can't understand other nations points of view because the US gov't is your gov't?
edit: and also, one of my main points was the picture you posted is just a picture someone posted of 6 tortured bodies on an internet cycling forum. you even used the forum upload function so i can't even see any URL where the picture was pulled from.
do you have that image (and maybe others??) just sitting on your hard drive or something???
You can find a way to rationalize whether it was relevant to the discussion if you want; to my eyes, it was only relevant to a side argument that you yourself introduced. Regardless, the point could have been made without the picture. So I'll reiterate: it was highly inappropriate, manipulative, exploitative, not particularly relevant to the conversation, and done in extremely poor taste and even worse judgment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daltex
Look man: you could listen to and choose to recognize the chorus of folks saying that you overstepped, and resolve to do better. Or you can sit there and keep doubling down on your rationalizations of how right you think you are and how wrong everyone else is. It's pretty clear which way you're going...
And with that, I've hit my yearly quoata for getting sucked into arguments on the internet.
Can a mod close this down? I'm not sure there is any reason to continue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cookietruck
This type of idiotic twisted reality is amazing. Seriously, read what you just wrote.
They must brain wash you guys in Art History classes, at Hipster University, right before you go to work for Starbucks.
-- please close this thread..,thank you..
& a smile to/for all a --- safe & healthy end-week
ronnie
i guess cdyer called it correctly...Quote:
Originally Posted by Daltex
ps do you have a directory on your hard drive for dead civilians and tortured bodies that the US gov't is responsible for, or do you only collect the human rights violations of the muslim groups???
and one more thing, if starbucks is where you find all the hipsters in dallas then austin really must be the be the best city in texas like all my hipster friends tell me.Quote:
Originally Posted by C.Dyer
Tuesday night Worlds with John Kerry, George Bush and Robin Williams. That'd be a hoot...
Maybe it works for you to just go along with the 'chorus' of others opinions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cookietruck
But people of principle, with moral character choose to do what's right instead of going along with the 'chorus' of voices coming from the safety of the herd.
sorry i'm still laughing about hipsters in starbucksQuote:
Originally Posted by Daltex
you're so lost bro
somebody "do what's right" and close this one down
please
I definitely sympathize with this, as it has just turned into "you're not a good person". But... I bet that either of these guys at loggerheads could trust the other with his wallet. Assuming that's true, it *would* be nice to figure out how two basically decent people come to this point, rather than just have people pissed at each other or writing off the other. This is generally a group of higher-than-average achievers, so I'd hope we could do that much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cookietruck
To me, what started as debate about the quality of a framework of a possible agreement about nuclear proliferation has degraded into the culture war that Lee Atwater and Newt Gingrich refined as a way to win elections. If we can dig back out of that pit, the thread could be a good one, even if no consensus is developed.