So you send the frame to Spectrum and the customer has all the contact with Mark and Liz and pays them? After that, does the frame come back to you before going to the customer?Quote:
Originally Posted by steve garro
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So you send the frame to Spectrum and the customer has all the contact with Mark and Liz and pays them? After that, does the frame come back to you before going to the customer?Quote:
Originally Posted by steve garro
See you in Alpine with a new supply of Tecate.Quote:
Originally Posted by steve garro
Yep. I let them do their job, and they do it well. the frame comes back to me, I have to put on the headbadge, any parts purchased from me, chase & face, H2O bottle bolts, all that fun stuff. - Garro.Quote:
Originally Posted by edoz
I get that you analyze most aspects of the build process pretty carefully (Gassflux rod to Aufhauzer, the Iowa brazeons...). Do you sell more frames or complete bikes? We all know completes make you more profitable, do you have any way to encourage people to step up to a complete? This is a question that has been burning in my brain lately.
Thanks, Matt - good Question. I think that the MTB side of clients gets fewer complete bikes. it sure seems that way. allot of re-using parts. I certainly try to get them to get as much as possible from me. I just plain ask - "is this going to be just a frame or a complete bike? Am I building wheels for you? I highly suggest you do." that kind of thing. If they just want a frame it's no worries, but if it's a non-standard part {re: non-shimano specs} I'll need that in my hand for the build, thank you. I think I have lost all my beating around the bush/shyness. I just ask. The client & I need to communicate to make this project come to fruition to each person's highest expectation, and just getting all the cards on the table seems to roll best. I do like the "all or nothing" approach. I don't have time to price out individual parts v. the WWW. You get a whole bike price, not a parts price breakdown. I don't mind just selling you just a King HS or Phil BB installed, but onesy-twosy parts eat up more time then you are likely to recoup. I still do allot of wheels for all over. I've been building wheels for 25yrs. & have a following. I like wheels - I can still make $$ when i'm tired at the end of the day from metalwork - Garro.Quote:
Originally Posted by cardinal
How do you handle people who want a complete bike but are having a hard time making component decisions? You can give people the technical rundown of XT vs XTR, but how do you deal with people who who want you to make the emotional decision for them? You had a bike shop, I'm sure you've had that experience before you started building. Also, was your way of dealing with that different as a shop owner compared to as a builder now?
Bike shop was more of an "upgrade" kind of deal - we had built bikes, and it was a "pick & choose" - here is how it is, what do you want to change? A custom bike is from scratch, so it's an open book. One of the first things is when you get to this level of custom build, most people know the finer points of XT v. XTR & already have an opinion formed, and just want your dos centavos. I have a line where people need to have their ducks in a row, after all, the bike has been on order for 10 months...........the other side of the coin is where people just say "build me a bike, I prefer silver components, and maybe a nice shade of ......... " these bikes always come out smoothly. I have been doing this quite awhile. All that said, hell - I'll debate phil v. Hadley with a customer at the end of the day over a beer as long as they want, it's my job, and i like it. most customers are great people & we mesh very well. I'm an easy guy to talk to -gotta go, the missus is taking me out for Thai - just brazed a frame & she is tapping me on the shoulder - later - Garro.Quote:
Originally Posted by edoz
How does the road bike advice about contact points translate into an off-road application where the rider is moving around so much more? Are there dimensions that get really important in MTB design that are not as relevant on the road side of things?
I wil be the 1st to admit that I'm not the guy to get a "true road bike" from. I've only bult 5-ish bikes with dedicated road brakes, but many that have cantis - more a 700c "all rounder" kind of bike - totally comfortable with that kind of bike, build lots of them. if it's under 28c i'm not your guy. First with Mtb's I look at standover hight with cycling shoes on to determine what wheel size/fork choice is appropriate - no 29ers for clients 5' 1" tall with a 28" inseam, for example. next is my secret sauce combo of torso/arm length to determine toptube length. I think more in the terms of TT length + seat tube angle then saddle setback. BB drop is also a variable which changes according to standover + intended use + fork travel as is head tube angle and trail.........it seems to me there are soooo many variables in MTB geometry - a bike with a rigid fork is going to be radically different then one built for a 120mm travel fork even though they are for the same person. Terrain also changes the bike. smooth & flowy is a different geometry then steep & ledgy - like road v. velodrome, for example. Chainstay length as well - then there are componetry choices.........does this help, or just muddy the waters? let me know & I will try to clarify any finer points - Garro.Quote:
Originally Posted by nahtnoj
That is pretty much exactly what I was looking for and expecting to hear - just some insight into the approach, not necessarily hard and fast rules.Quote:
Originally Posted by steve garro
Thank you,
Jon
no worries, Jon! glad to help - Garro.Quote:
Originally Posted by nahtnoj
Steve, I've been parroting this for years. I've been saying that "one day" you'll walk into a bike shop and buy a S/M/L frame and it will have 26/650b/29 wheels on it because that's what is going to fit the rider, or some form of that--but you won't just buy a bike based on wheel size. I'm not sure it will ever happen but being 6'+, 29er just makes sense for me. A 26" looks goofy for me, but not everyone is as tall as me so I don't knock 'em nor do I knock the 650b, just ride the one that fits me. It's great reading your story. You were always so helpful during the WWTP stuff on my first build on MTBR and the sleeve is on both of my current rides and the one that I'm building now. So all my frames are inspired by you and it's neat to trace that back to the history that you've been through. It's a gas. BTW, I went out this weekend and decided to just sit down and see how far I could get in a day. I've almost got a whole front triangle. Considering #1 took a year, #2 took 9 weeks, a day ain't bad for a front triangle. I just distinctly remember you commenting on something taking so long with WWTP, not even sure the context, but me saying that "not all of us have a stocked shop that is ready to go". I'm getting closer.Quote:
Originally Posted by steve garro
........but i bet it got a fire under you ass, eh?!? - thanks man - it's been fun watching your process. please show your work on Fridays {thurs...} and sign up to be "smoked out" huh? keep it up, the first 50 take some time - Garro.Quote:
Originally Posted by PCW
Well, maybe a little. The fire really was already there but it took a while for that wet wood to get burning. Wait, that doesn't sound right now that I think about it.....Quote:
Originally Posted by steve garro
I'll be showing my work on Fridays and I'm on Richie's list to be smoked out. Sounds like it'll be a while though, which is actually better I suppose. You in particular are really going to like what I have for you tomorrow.
Sweet. I often hope that I will have left a positive body of work when I an gone, and I like to include passing on what I know to others as part of this {us Garros don't live long - my uncles all died at ages from 32 to 59 & my mom's side seem to be born with cancer implanted + an SCI takes 10+ yrs off your life} . I just hope not to sound too surly, as I can be short with people that I think aren't thinking out a problem on their own but trying to let the keypad link them to someone who already has. {not that you are guilty of this, I applaud {sp?} your moxy in taking up Walt's offer!} I also see Q's offered up on line only to be met with a feeding frenzy of mis-information. I know I have not offered up as much direct info as I used to online, but to quote a wise man: "say something once, why say it again?" I'm actually going riding now! Ciao for Niao - Garro.Quote:
Originally Posted by PCW
From Anthony Maietta: QUOTE: Garro, I saw on your website that you offer un-filed frames. This may be a Smoked Out question, but its pertinent now...what percentage of your customers take you up on this? It is just astonishing how clean those look. Well done.- END QUOTE - Thanks! astonishingly few. I thought it would be all the rage, but only a couple have went with it. I think the big thing is to show that i CAN - you know what I mean? and, if someone is into it, they get $200.00 off- Garro.
Maybe part of it's that you list that option in black only. It sounds pretty appealing to me until you tell me I get one color.
when I grow up I want to be able to braze fillets like Steve. It suspect Eric is right, people want to choose their own color and $200 isn't too much to pay for that for most people
Hell yes. I'm getting closer, but I usually get some ripples like a tig weld. I'm lucky though, my bottom bracket junctions turn out better than the rest and they're the hardest to finish.Quote:
Originally Posted by EricKeller
since there is more bb there to heat, that suggests you might need to turn the torch down on the other joints
that's just it - the actual time savings is in eliminating the color choice as much as filing. I can file down a frame faster then most people can choose a color! plus, black gets sprayed every day, expiditing the process. so you get it faster AND cheaper. lastly, it's an homage to Johnny Cash - the Man in Black. RIP. - Garro.Quote:
Originally Posted by edoz
Eh, maybe it's just my contrary nature. I'd be just fine with a black bike until you say it's my only choice, then I'm wanting candy apple green and pearly translucent purple ghost flames or something. I can totally see the appeal of the powder guys being able to knock it out any day and not wait until they're set up for some other color.
then it's off to spectrum - add 3-4 weeks + $300-$400.00, please. - it's a mountain bike - you are supposed to ride it on rocks, in the rain, dirt and grime, and crash it at least every few rides - or, at least a hasty dismount here & there {not that there is anything wrong with bling if you are into it - it's your bike} - Garro.Quote:
Originally Posted by edoz
just let me know if you have any questions. I usually don't go into process details, but if you want to know my Fillet Brazing secrets then I reckon this is the spot to archive them. I'll even tell what color flux - Garro.Quote:
Originally Posted by EricKeller
stevo are you using the blue paste from gasflux atmo?
Yes. I know it does not look like it in my pics. It is Gasflux blue {for brass/bronze} I run a Gasfluxer {on med} so I just use a very watery, milky mix of blue, just enough to eat into the metal and give it some "tooth", ease oxidation, give you a proper temperature gage for when to apply filler, show you the HAZ & ease/increase flow. I run it so watery that I have to have the torch in hand to "fix" the flux in place or it will all drip off the BB. Ask away, Y'all - this is my brazing FAQ. lemme know what you wanna know. - Garro.Quote:
Originally Posted by e-RICHIE
new tools in the shop, rollers for my 3-roll large radius bender - now i can do 1.125" and 1.25" tubing. I can curve 1.125" down to .028" wall & 1.25" down to .035" wall. man, this is soooo much better then the fill it full of sand and hand bend over a wooden mandrel. I've come a long way in learning about bending/curving metal - Garro.
Aslo, a link to a coconino cruiser review from a couple of years back. this bike does triple duty: It was a centerpiece @ NAHBS, it did a Magazine review, and it got sold to Absolute Bikes in Salida, Co. where it is displayed, loved and even loaned out. I got my $$$$$ worth out of this build for sure. article here: Dirt Rag {Print Rag} - Garro.
The article says fifty hours of labor. Journalistic licence, or is something else going on?
Nice rollers, btw.
naw - that's correct - I kept track. packing toptube with sand, bending it, bending the seatstays, making the ST sleeve, cutting the SS brace from stock, fitting the kicker tube, adding a super complex fillet junction to the mix to file down {ST/TT/kicker tube} braze ons........shit just adds up. Oh yeah, I almost forgot - it was built when I was maybe 130lbs getting used to life in a wheelchair, too......I still polish a regular diamond frame for about 10hrs. I may be slow but the results look good.......keeps me {mostly} out of trouble...... - Garro.Quote:
Originally Posted by edoz
10 hrs sounds pretty good to me, I spend 15+ on a frame. The seat tube sleeve accounts for 2 or 3 of that though. The rest is just me not having built hundreds of frames, plus walking around and getting distracted.
yeah - it used to take me forever. I take rests about every CD - stretch my hands & arms, back, shoulders, neck, eyes......wash your face, pet the dogs, look at all the flowers - and go back at it. I usually get the whole frame polished but the HT brazes on the 1st day {after paperwork/client realtions/ordering/shipping/cleaning, ect} ditto the next day but HT brazes & the braze-ons and frame prep for paint. I try to break it all down into do-able chunks of time & labor - Garro.Quote:
Originally Posted by edoz
hey, Oregonians! come out and sell some bikes & drink some brews, ride road or mountain, swim, paddle, sit in hotsprings and meet Me, Wade Beauchamp of Vulture cycles, hopefully Fred from Wolfhound and others. base camp will be with the promoters, Wilamette mountain mechantile. {bikes, carhart & cast iron - you gotta love that} race course map is up: Race Course see you there on the 18th - Garro.
Coconino Cycles World HQ update 9/1/10: coconino cycles custom bicycles 928 774 7747 www.coconinocycles.com: Bum, Bloggery & the Cash. - Busy! / Bammy's bike, Fall. - Garro.
Coconino Cycles World HQ update - 9/5/10 coconino cycles custom bicycles 928 774 7747 www.coconinocycles.com: Bammy's frame all wrapped up - Garro.
Coconino Cycles mid-Sept update: coconino cycles custom bicycles 928 774 7747 www.coconinocycles.com: Giity's frame done, Bammy's waiting, Jeff's & Manzo's still at spectrum, some hard handcycling / out of here for two weeks, back 10-1 / build queue. see you all in Oct! - Garro.
Back from an amazing time in the NW! coconino cycles custom bicycles 928 774 7747 www.coconinocycles.com: Thank you, Oregon and N. California for all the great food, recreation & friendship. the flu, not so much....... got to hang with salonistas Vulture & Jake {bellman} back to work tomorrow. - Garro.
welcome back. looks like it was an awesom trip. great pix.
every time i go to your site the quote by bill bullard always makes me smile. who is bill bullard and what does that quote mean to you?
(I did google bill bullard and found the photographer)
for everyone here is the quote: "Opinion is really the lowest form of human knowledge," says educator Bill Bullard. "It requires no accountability, no understanding. The highest form of knowledge is "empathy", for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another’s world. It requires profound, purpose‐larger‐than‐the‐self kind of understanding." I got it from my great friend/photog D. Kish Dawn Kish Photography and it just stuck for me. my world in my previous life was one where i was guilty of just thinking of myself {largely as a survival instinct - nobody really raised me from 12yrs on - Mom split, Dad was courting my step-monster who never liked me} and I just basically walked through this world as if it was all a big soap opera where I was the star & everybody else were just talking heads/bit actors. I think many do. There are allot of things about the old Steve that died on Oct 5th, 2005 that were just as good gone. That's a hard pill to learn to swallow. Now, I'm not the flashy, tough, looked up to racer guy/endurance star/sports model. I'm that cripple guy hugging the side of the street to get good crutch placement just gimping along & trying not to spill his coffee. People who don't know me think I'm just some kind of 'tard or a worthless cripple without ever seeing under the exterior. I loath the fact that used to be me sometimes. Now, i've met guys who have climbed Kilamanjaro on a handcycle, guys who rode around the globe on one, climbed El Cap with arms alone, have several frinds with head injuries really struggling but are pulling it off under exterme duress while still being themselves, talked to MS kids, helped people get off the sidewalk for the first time in 20yrs, lots of that. and you know what? behind the peepers they are still humans along on the same fucked up ride on a tiny dustspeck as me, and everyone else. I learned that if someone is leading a life different then yours then that does not mean it can be a life without merit or happiness. I learned that there is my mind, and there is the thing we thing of as "reality", and that sometimes you have to step back from your percieved "reality" and let your mind determine right from wrong or to think in ways that may cause us to squirm a little. Lastly, it carries oner to building, and I have said this before, you have to build people THEIR bike, not YOUR bike in their size. that is substituting *opinion* {how you think their bike should be} to *empathy* {how thier bike should be} by being empathetic to tha nuances of fit, use and intent to make what will be the best for that client.........sorry for the rant, I just busted this out as train-of-though but think it covers your question - Garro.Quote:
Originally Posted by roguedog
un-happy anniversary! today is the 5th anniversary of me being crushed like a grape. 5/10/05 - guess i'll go build frames to celebrate! - Garro.