Thanks Freddy, I'll give it a shot. Sort of a contact tin to seal the edges?
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Thanks Freddy, I'll give it a shot. Sort of a contact tin to seal the edges?
I'm not mad, that's not how I am. it's just that i started this thread hoping to give visuals as to what results people are getting & every time someone posts it turns into a cycle design ad. c'mon, guys. let your builders show the results. everything else is just 1's & 0's. - Garro.Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy
The tinning effect follows the heated progression of the filler as if it had the elements in it, elements can be added to fluxes also in powdered and oxides forms.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Estlund
Andersons comment about nickel is valid but old school for some complicated reasons, it like a lot of other joining processes was the norm using acid fluxes that would cause alloy separation during the heated bonding.
Current SS joining in aerospace all the way to nuclear piping is a little different and I could go on for days on how it works, short answer is nickel displacement and the path to inter facial corrosion or scabbing.
Modern SS fluxes don't raise this issue like ones of the past, the SS alloys seal off with a very small trace of nickel and lots of tin just fine.
Reynolds/ Columbus recommends A56T for example using commercial black flux (3411) recently due to the numbers of UK builders using Fillet Pro, Reynolds has recommended it to those that inquire.
It has no "Interfacial" issues and only contains a trace of nickel making it user easy and very predicable.
That stated, if it is used with potassium bi-flouride flux it loses those qualities substantially, but for case in point if a leader was used even that way the interfacial would be reduced, but not a good idea.
Same thing happens where too much flouride will wash out zinc and so forth.
That product "Muggy Weld" is just A56T but it has a killer flux and can work magic because it was planned that way.
Since guys that formulate these joining alloys can't be looking over your shoulder 24/7 some operators miss use product combinations in the largest industries but on a grand scope the SS joining methods developed in India a couple of decades ago have been re-fined and are norm today.
Remember that 50 years ago SS for nuclear mills was plated before brazing, yipes we have come a long way...
I am now a private party, feels good, now I can keep playing with alloys and methods, so let's hope they send lots of pics and think out of the box !Quote:
Originally Posted by steve garro
I hope the CDG keeps on keeping on but I remain on my quest for answers and results.
I hope you don't think I am a "Piss ant" but I am kinda stoked about all the results ! This is great !
Fredddy
I could try and get a great price on 58n to help, I have used that one in the past myself and it goes in those lugs very well ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Anderson
And zip on zinc, it is an old school std and 100% great results...
Freddy,
I am not exactly sure of what everything you said means, but believe me (or not...its no skin off my nose, as my grandpa used to say :-) ), when working with stainless on stainless, especially, Interfacial Corrosion is a real concern, especially when dealing with Martensitic type alloys.
Even the makers of Silvaloy A56T state: " Where improved corrosion resistance is needed, Silvaloy 50N and Silvaloy A-40N2 are recommended over silver base filler metals not containing nickel."
I've seen it first hand and I've discussed it with a metallurgist.... as the saying goes "your mileage may vary", but I know that I personally will not stick anything like a stainless drop out on a stainless frame with a filler that does not contain nickel.....especially if the joint area is not going to see paint....
Just my $.02
Dave
yeah, it would be great if they could actually have the product ready to ship when they charge you for it instead of telling you it is & then you don't see anything for six months and then finally you get a big bag with "scraps" written on it consisting of mixed unlabeled alloys in 4-6" lengths, or charged for regs which never show up for months while you are dead in the water & end up buying others, only to have some finally show up which are USED, and then months later others show up from a third party that I could have bought from myself & not been upcharged for. I hope that it not only "keeps on" but that it actually becomes a reliable buisness entity. - Garro.Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy
I think the string has now become distracted.
I am standing firm on how hard this has been, such as being removed as a distributer because I moved to AZ without notice, no goods available after twenty years of providing them without problems. And my favorite two stage regs were discontuned without notice, leaving orders still open and no product to fill them.
Steve is Mad but He never mentioned it to me and has never returned loaners I got while fighting it out with the factory.
This explains it all , very hard to keep it all even when you don't know about it?
And when I called and asked I got all is fine, no problem answers.
The entire project to take my products to market ended up $158,000 dollars in Chapter 7 so that part is history, almost cost me my home.
The Group members stepped up and have a better business plan but remember the factories change terms without notices, so one day is rosey the next is bust.
The entire issue of re-canting options is useful and fun, but it will never pay the bills, the clock is ticking on the day that members won't be able to get bottle gas not to mention any joining products, that is the near future being adopted city by city, I fight like hell to keep the open food chain and it has cost enough time, I am not only out but but my heart is broken, my intentions not only have been there 100% but my wallet also.
Thanks Steve, we will see how the new guys do with what is there to work with.
As for pictures?
Lets see all these SS failures everyone is witch hunting? I have seen one in fifty years, don't have any pictures?
as long as the chat remains civil i will keep the thread live.
the moment it gets personal or he said she said, it's locked.
Freddie,
My post was not meant to offend, it was meant only to respond to the point about Interfacial issues, which you brought up and then seemed to dismiss, in response to my post about nickel. If I offended you, please accept my apology.
As I said, I only provided my point of view and tried to make it clear that it was only my point of view. I think we all have a right to post our own opinion and experience. As I also said....it doesn't matter to me if others agree with me or not. I know what works for me and gives me peace of mind.....I have no problem not posting what I know if its offensive or of no use to anyone.
In addition, looking back at this thread it appears that you may be taking offense to what I said with respect to corrosion because of posts which reference your products. Please be advised that I have never used any CDG products and have no idea if they contain nickel or not. As far as I know they work perfectly for their intended use and nothing I said was intended to imply otherwise.
Thank you for sharing your experience.
Sincerely,
Dave
Problems are past history long since over.
If a valid documented info is desirable I am sure Dave B or Wade B will provide it later.
Sincerely Freddy
Steve,Quote:
Originally Posted by steve garro
I do not know and cannot comment on what has happened in the past. Wade and I have been doing this for over a year now and we have had product consistently and shipped expeditiously.
You really did this? You mig tacked a tube in place before brazing it? You're putting me on, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Porter
.......
If you take the time to read that, the tube that blew out was NOT the tube that was tacked.
This was a long time before I hooked up with Porter so don't get any bright ideas?
Dave and I discussed this some time back and since it was the down tube which was silver brazed in a second procedure it remains unclear?
Other failures exactly like this one surfaced from other builders that were discussed, one of those builders from the UK bronze brazed and a piece of the down tube began to crack away on the side?
One 953 build by a premier UK builder broke in an odd pattern mid seat tube, now get this, when heat was applied a foot farther up the tube to fit the seat binder?
I don't think Dave's problem was a result of the mig tack in anyway, it was done during a previous pass, the broken tube was added on later.
And even though factories have mig tacked in the past, regardless it doesn't agree with me, I would never do it or recommend it, I think I mentioned this before?
Dave, can you post some shots of your stuff in the buff with the filler/ flux combos you have found successful? I loves me the pictures.
Gasflux blue flux and generic LFB...plain gas-no fluxer:Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Estlund
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_AcRXesuvxm4/S0.../jpg%20275.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4080/...16f5fd89_o.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4082/...a73a8f36_z.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4114/...6092bd7f_o.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4118/...fdab8a29_o.jpg
Now that is really nice, Dave has some serious skill and feeling for form.
Thanks loads for posting that,
Freddy
Thank you, Freddy!Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy
Dave
YES! I was assuming that meat of the structural or shear strength was derived from the silver content but if I'm understanding correctly it's more about gap and flow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy
Do you know of any successfully examples of builders using say Fillet Pro to build a bike with "micro" fillets?Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy
Thanks Freddy!-Chris
This may be a thread jack/ drift, go ahead and redirect me if it is. I'm always interested when "micro" comes up. Given the relative benefits (and difficulties) of fillets, I often wonder why the "micro" builders don't pursue TIG, which seems to deal with the super small joinery in a manner better suited to the alloys involved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dornbox
Note that I haven't used Fillet Pro, the base of your question, and my observations are mostly in reference to silver and brass fillets/ tinning.
Damn it- more pictures, less typing.... ummmm.... here we go: medium fillet on the front, "micro's" on the back.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4125/...646ff80c6a.jpg
Here is a place to start and get it off Steve Garro's portion, this forum must be overloading, it takes a full minute for a page to open down here on my very fast system?
Anyway here is and internal to some comments and pictures
http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum...pro-14695.html
See page 43 Columbus Cat 2006 "MIG: OK Autrod 13.12" Why on god's green earth would I put anyone on?Quote:
Originally Posted by Archibald
dp
First is to define a Micro Fillet or internal fillet and it seems everyone refers to something as a Micro Fillet ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Estlund
Small 3/16 radius fillets have been raced over the span of my lifetime and I did a lot of them very small with common brass in years gone by with bikes that were made for competition so I know large fillets are more of a long term style than a must.
A recent discussion I was having with another joining engineer brought up a comment, "Why do they think those big fillets are strong, they need to flow inside as well"
Since Dave Porter and I hooked up which is well after he had been silver building with others products, not mine, his fillets are very small and have held up just fine.
But his style was also successful for many years using other products, the wierd break out was never repeated and had never happened before?
That tube is a candidate for electron inspection, it should not have done that.
Eric your work above looks exactly the same as my most common practices from forty years ago, it is just fine? I want to answer any questions that remain if you have them?
History comments about invisable fillets? yes I did make many of them on race bikes with the majority of the filler inside, and so did many other builders before me and after.
It is easy enough to do but what is the point.
All tig joints suffer some degradation just like brazed can, the object is things go better with experience and care and knowing your alloys properties.
An improper Tig joint can be as much as 40% degraded from pre-joined specs if it is done wrong.
Brass, common brass almost never results in that much, more like 10% or less as a rule of thumb, Silver if done with proper tech is most often Zero.
You choose, they all work well enough to make a solid bicycle, always have.
It all boils down to what you find most comfortable to work with, my overseas builders like "Enigma" use all kinds of build methods from Tig to the silver bearing bronze fillet pro.
They all work.
If I was making lightweight bikes, the method would be just the same as Dave Porter uses, very modest fillets with a good secure inner fillet and keep the bike as light as possible.
Dave has enjoyed records broken that held for years on his builds which is a pretty good indication something went right?
Marten did make in interesting observation out using a MIG to tack a tube in place (BTW-how many of you using non supported odd ball shaped tubes wished for a quick and reliable way to locate a tube or bit?) about the relative speed of spot tack cooling. That is certainly true, compared to using gas and to an extent TIG. But, as Freddy, pointed out many months ago, the tube that failed was the down tube, the tube that was tacked was the seat tube...
Steve Garro wanted pix of failed tubes, I sent and erred in even suggesting that it was the fault of a MIG tack since I originally had the tack location wrong. (It gets worse with age).
I think I corrected it then and don't need to spend my time rebutting lame pronouncements..
BTW, Freddy says it better than usual above, Thanks Mr. Parr
dp
dood-Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Porter
mig welding that shit is the stupidest thing i have ever read on this forum, and given that i'm a contributor here that's a lot of stupid material.... this is a colombus life tube- not the headers on your deuce couple or a piece of rod iron furniture. when columbus says, "mig: ok autorod 13.12" they're providing an ok for a fucking robot in china that's probably using some pulsed spray transfer mode shit....they're not giving you an ok to mig tack a .4 thick tube!
I worked in a shop that built headers that had 1" x.020" Inconel tubes welded into a large disc of (iirc) 316 stainless. They had guys MIGing them by hand, with no burn through and holding very tight tolerances with respect to the distortion of the tube that stuck out. If a guy knew what he was doing, he could MIG a Life frame, paint it and no one would ever know the difference.
No, DUDE, (correct spelling) the stupidest thing on this forum appears to be you. The MIG'd tube is NOT the one that failed.
Tell you what I'll do pretty soon, I'll MIG an entire Spirit frame and submit for testing... I have no clue as to why this attack on my bike.
You're welcome to an opinion, but near as I can tell from here, that's all you have. And as a moderator you ought to clean up your language.
Just saying.
i don't care where or why the frame failed. i was commenting on the lunacy of using a mig welder to tack a frame and responding to your citation of the columbus catalog. now you're going to mig weld a whole one? for every million reasons why this is a bad idea can you come up with one good one for doing this? thinking its a bad idea may be an opinion, but it is a far more reasonable and well thought out one than the opinion that it's a good idea to mig weld a bike frame.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Porter
Golly ?
I take two days off from other important projects and check in and what do I find? A War Zone.
I am out measuring soffits and I am tired of climbing the ladder and more hostile distracted posts? Is there a luner cycle right now?
Dave don't bother to Mig a frame up, thinner stuff than those tubes gets migged in production in the real world.
I just don't like the process and am set in my ways.
I think a lot of readers go to the lists and the more confused the posts get make for a tidal effect all made up of negatives, Hell I am gun shy about even making a joke anymore?
Since I am no longer involved with the money end of trying to score cool stuff - Frankly looking at these lists and "Peer oriented shows" is making less sense to this old man.
Get out and score some customers and build away, Omar does, and he seems quite happy.
I want one of your Santa Fe rigs and I will make you such a deal off list.
PS don't call me Mr. Parr that is shameful I am a happy clown and refuse to grow up
Last from me...Quote:
Originally Posted by jerk
You do seem to care else you wouldn't comment.
Here's the deal, I started nearly 40 years ago with lugs and brass, as the years and materials and techniques changed, I changed with them. Before using any new product I do what is known as research and experimentation (R&D). In the case of the Spirit multi-shape the importer's tech dept. assured me that fine grain doped Niobium was more than up to the task of brass temps and as I recall was further stabilized by the welding process. This was also reinforced by the MANUFACTURER who probably knows better than anyone and does not "comment" in their literature without checking with the legal dept. first.
Now you can wax as eloquently or as vociferously as you feel about my lunacy, but I'm not about to change my way of building frames because someone who can't take the time to learn more or experiment thinks that I'm the one with a problem.
As an aside, there are some really talented builders on this list, some only hobbyists at that. I certainly don't make any claims to know it all and I am on the various lists to learn from others, but I never take their word as gospel until it works for me too.
Have a good evening.
WOW!!!!
This is out of control.
There's a lot of good content in this thread - too bad its getting weighed down with unnecessary attacks.
It's cool that folks can be casual here, let their hair down, and tell it like it is. Sometimes, there is a need to backup some and make sure that the tone and language are appropriate considering the relationship that does or doesn't exist between the parties at hand.
I've never met either Dave nor Jerk face to face. I know lots of folks have a great deal of respect here for Jerk's knowledge as a bike fitter, bike designer, retail bike guru. His posts on these topics stand up to that reputation. He may also have deep tech quals as a fabricator, although that's less clear to me.
Dave has not only been building custom frames for a long time, he has explored areas of framebuilding that go beyond what most big brands accomplish. For example, his work in conjunction with Sandia Labs to create aerodynamic TT bikes (made of steel, BTW). Most of the so called Aero bikes are bunkum (fortunately this situation is gradually improving). Dave's Aero bikes were based on solid science. Ask to see one of his forks with internal chokes. He's the real deal. Look at the fab skills required to build those chokes in a fully functional and durable fork - its not a cakewalk.
ATMO, there is no excuse for anyone calling Dave, or his work, and any of his design decisions stupid. Further, I think it should be rare that this sort of language should be used in this sort of context with any of the builders here, regardless of any pre-existing relationship anyone has with them. Choosing to be unnecessarily critical is a sure way to convince framebuilders to stay away from Velocipede Salon. It will also tend to reinforce the idea of in-crowd and out-crowd rules.
Jerk, you've been a bit sensitive about framebuilders not recognizing your frame fabrication skills, even though its not clear how they could be aware you have any. Ya can't be thin skinned and heartless at the same time. It's just plain bad karma.
Dave, I feel your pain. And I know, that you know, that calling Jerk stupid hasn't moved the conversation to a higher plane.
The insulting comments (from a variety sources over the course of this thread) serve no one any good. The make the Salon appear to be less than what it is. They make their authors look bad.
It's easy to understand emotion under fire and to understand what it feels like to be dissed. Sometimes we say something in the heat of battle.
Comments on a list/blog/forum have a way of being a gift that keeps on giving. They become a permanant stain on the forum and the author.
Personally, I think the rude comments should be editted out by their owners (partly out of courtesy, partly in self-interest). But anyone who doesn't chose this path, gets to live with their own legacy - which is probably a harder mistress than my feeble opinions.
'nuff said.
i was too busy watching jerseylicous and having ice cream to follow this.Quote:
Originally Posted by CyclesNoir
we need a time out here atmo.
i have no doubt that dave can mig weld a frame that will not fail. i have no doubt that dave is an exceptional craftsman and has worlds of experience. i have seen his bikes. i just don't get why you would use that joining process on a modern steel tubeset. there are better ways to do it- i am sure dave's skillset allows him to accomplish it without potential failure- i never said it caused the failure of a frame- i just think it's really stupid to tack a frame with a mig welder. it just ain't a process i feel is conducive for the materials. i think it's stupid. lot's of things i do other people think are stupid- doesn't make me any less right though!
sorry for the flame war. it wasn't personal. it was calling the use of a process stupid....not a person stupid or a skillset lacking.