Re: If you want to dump Trump....
Let's make one thing clear Corso: Some of us who are vehemently opposed to Trump don't hate his supporters and DO feel like they know why people who voted for Trump voted for Trump.
I know it is not a popular sentiment- but the electorate that voted for Trump is one I like about a milion times better than say- the one that elected our last Republican President.
George W. won because the evangelicals came out in droves for him.
Trump won because generally apolitical working class white men- who identify as "middle class" came out in droves for Trump.
People voted for Trump for a couple of reasons:
1. They're Republicans in much the same way I'm a Catholic, a Democrat, an Amercian etc. Ideology has next to nothing to do with it. Their parents, their community, most of the people they know etc. etc. are all Republicans. They no more chose this party affiliation than they did their eye color. The vast majority of voters fall in this category whether they believe it or not. They rarely if ever cross party lines.
2. They're evangelicals who voted. See above but bear in mind that many of this group-particularly those affiliated with newer churches and residing in the West or other areas where they are the first generation to live there- may have been historical Republicans like group A and many were also the Democratic equivalent of group 1.
3. Suburban and small city working class white men and women voted for Trump particularly in Pennsylvania, Florida, and the Mid West. Many of these voters voted for Obama. Many even voted for Sanders in the primary. This group lives the decline in real wages and purchasing power for all Americans with the exception of the ultra-rich. They know that their kids will not be as well off as they are. They know that there is not enough savings or equity in their homes to continue their lifestyle after retirement. They don't feel negative towards Obama or the Democrats even- but they do see that all that was promised only delivered higher healthcare costs from their employers, no increase in real wages, and increasing income discrepency. They also look at the rapid advances in technology, the changing nature of media, and the representation of women, homosexuals, Blacks, Hispanics et. al. in popular media and in their gut there is a guilty sneaking feeling that maybe "these people" ARE getting ahead while they seem to be in about the same place or even worse off. They never thought their world view was misogynist or racist- but they're now told (truthfully I'd say) by many in the media and academia that it is. Trump spoke to these people. He was the only candidate with the exception of Sanders pointing out what was wrong. Hillary focused on what was right and the accomplishments of the Obama administration. These folks voted for Trump for much the same reason they voted for Obama- they wanted hope and change.
It's a Buddhist affirmation to say, "abandon all hope". Hope is really a form clining to a falsehood and attaching a story to reality that does not exist. Trump's absurd bravado, his cruel sense of humor, his confidence, as well as his focus on nostalgia and repeating over and over again that he would fix what was wrong with the country- was extremely appealing. It's not really any different than Bernie or even Obama's message- All are offering up the scam of hope. The difference is that while Bernie delivers his message with righteous vitriol, and Obama delivers it with invigorated compassion and measured dignity- Trump delivers it with mean humor, bravado, and confidence.
Furthermore by being disagreeable, and wrong, and sketchy, and never expressing remorse- he enables a certain element of the white working class and middle class voter to absolve themselves of all their sins too. If Trump can say and do all that- incurring the wrath of all these people that they know are also judging them when they are not half as bad and just living their lives- maybe these liberal elites these women, these identity politicers, these immigrants these etc. etc. are actually full of shit and Trump is right. At least he's not a politician and isn't scared to say what he thinks- even if I disagree with it.
I agree with the vast majority of folks who hate Trump in terms of their political and social positions- but even I find the elitism, apparent glee at pointing out his stupidity, and schadenfreude any time things go bad for the president by everyone from righteously indignant leftists to the New York Times to rich liberals at times insufferable.
Elections are decided by the small amount of people who sometimes vote and when they do- they're not beholden to a given political party. The portion of this group who feel left behind by the economy, the culture, and the Democratic Party is significant enough to have elected Trump- and my guess is they'll do it again.
Re: If you want to dump Trump....
Craig, after reading this I sort of get it.
Re: If you want to dump Trump....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jerk
Furthermore by being disagreeable, and wrong, and sketchy, and never expressing remorse- he enables a certain element of the white working class and middle class voter to absolve themselves of all their sins too.
I suppose one way to think of him is as the great high priest of his generation not only declaring forgiveness for all the sins - materialism, infidelity, impiety, divorce, dishonesty, cowardliness, selfishness - but by his own example saying that they were never really wrong to being with because they didn't stop him.
Re: If you want to dump Trump....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jerk
Let's make one thing clear Corso: Some of us who are vehemently opposed to Trump don't hate his supporters and DO feel like they know why people who voted for Trump voted for Trump. <snip...>
Craig, great post and I think this bears repeating. There are many of us who oppose Trump who also understand the dynamics that led him to office and his unwavering support amongst a large swath of the country.
I also think there's one other reason Trump won. He managed, quite impressively in hindsight, to hit on all the right topics that matter to single issue voters, even when they're contradictory. How he managed to be the pick of the working class whites hoping to return to more prosperous times who are generally the face of his base and the uber wealthy who can't fathom giving up another percentage or two of their $50mil annual salary was remarkable. And then there's all the people, probably more visible here in Miami than elsewhere, who share his hardline stance on Israel and ignored everything else. There are more, but I'll stop there. The point is, the reasons people voted for Trump are fairly clear. At least when I question people about it, I'm wanting to understand if they feel it was worth it or they got what they bargained for. I know a few who absolutely did (they happen to be rich business owners who love the corporate tax cut). And I know a few who would love a do-over.
And yes, I've been confident he would win reelection from day 1. I still think he will. Regardless of what people think about how this is the most winnable election for Dems in years, Trump's base is all in, the single issue voters are either happy with their choice or are willing to give him 4 more to deliver, and there's the whole swath that you outline that'll never vote D because identity. I hope I'm wrong.
Re: If you want to dump Trump....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Matthew Strongin
I hope I'm wrong.
Me too. And I hope that all these dudes pontificating in this room, and so many others, have underestimated how the overt misogyny has played with 51% of our population. Or at least a majority of that majority.
Women Rising 2020
https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images...6/HHSr3EB-.jpg
Re: If you want to dump Trump....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
thollandpe
+100!
i know it's not a popular thing to vocalize, but how any woman, or anyone who supports women stands behind this guy truly baffles me.
Re: If you want to dump Trump....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jerk
I agree with the vast majority of folks who hate Trump in terms of their political and social positions- but even I find the elitism, apparent glee at pointing out his stupidity, and schadenfreude any time things go bad for the president by everyone from righteously indignant leftists to the New York Times to rich liberals at times insufferable.
I share the same impression...
Re: If you want to dump Trump....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jerk
Trump won because generally apolitical working class white men- who identify as "middle class" came out in droves for Trump.
I think the quote above is true but a bit incomplete.
I saw Charlie Cook (political talker) make a presentation in January of '15 and he pointed out that Bernie could not win the nomination as the game was rigged, and that Hillary had a very high floor and a very low ceiling. In other words, a bunch of people were going to vote for her no matter what and a bunch would not vote for her no matter what.
I think the Dems lost because they put up a very unappealing candidate who flat out did not work hard enough. I'm from Michigan and the President carried this state by 13,000 votes. Say what you will about suppression and interference, the fact that Secretary Clinton could not figure out how to get here and raise some enthusiasm in the closing months says all you need to know about the level of arrogance and entitlement inside of that campaign.
Trump actually received 30,000 fewer votes in Michigan than George W. received in 2004 when he lost the state. Trump won not because of some amazing tidal wave of voters. He won because the people who found him to be a bad choice could not find the enthusiasm to get to the polls. That responsibility, not building enthusiasm, sits with the people who set the rules that made it impossible to have a real primary and then those who ran such an arrogant entitled campaign.
(Just for context- I have cast more R votes in my life than D but I did not vote for the President)
DJ
Re: If you want to dump Trump....
--- Craig..,
the only choice for Tammy and ronnie in 2016.., HC or DT...
what a sorry-ass choice to serve up...
ronnie
Re: If you want to dump Trump....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ron l edmiston
what a sorry-ass choice to serve up...ronnie
and only marginally improved for 2020.
Re: If you want to dump Trump....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ron l edmiston
--- Craig..,
the only choice for Tammy and ronnie in 2016.., HC or DT...
what a sorry-ass choice to serve up...
ronnie
I had some serious policy problems, and some judgement and likely ethical issues as well, with Hillary but there was really no comparison between Trump and her. I certainly didn't like the proximity of Bill to her either but she would have been a far more constructive force than Trump. I think it's a false equalency to lump the two of them together.
Re: If you want to dump Trump....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ras72
and only marginally improved for 2020.
I disagree. We have a boatload of extremely serious problems facing us and the world and the Democratic candidates are addressing them in positive and constructive fashions; vastly more positive and constructive than anything Trump is doing. We should acknowledge that rather than issue broad spectrum disparaging comments about all the candidates and government in general. That's a destructive tack to adopt.
Re: If you want to dump Trump....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jclay
I disagree. We have a boatload of extremely serious problems facing us and the world and the Democratic candidates are addressing them in positive and constructive fashions; vastly more positive and constructive than anything Trump is doing. We should acknowledge that rather than issue broad spectrum disparaging comments about all the candidates and government in general. That's a destructive tack to adopt.
I think there are some great candidates to be found. Perhaps no superstars, like Obama, but certainly there are some serious and experienced human beings with America's well being in mind, who would not leave a "royal family" taste in ones mouth.
I think to dismiss anyone as an equivalently poor choice to the guy being impeached right now is massively unfair.
Re: If you want to dump Trump....
‘You’re a bunch of dopes and babies’: Inside Trump’s stunning tirade against generals
What an utter dumb f**k, jackass: ‘You’re a bunch of dopes and babies’: Inside Trump’s stunning tirade against generals
I find myself unconsciously shaking my head and muttering in wonder that anybody, at this point, with all we know, have seen and have heard, can support such an organically destructive, ignorant jackass.
Re: If you want to dump Trump....
Hey John...what if we require all candidates for office to only take Federal Funding and restrict elections to a period of a few months? It is old news that many of these elected reps. spend most of their time grubbing for money. That's not conducive to a representative democracy yo.
Using the threat of "hard votes" and primaries as weapons to bend political will lessens representation of electorates....for instance.
Re: If you want to dump Trump....
Josh-- There was a strong push towards campaign finance reform in general some years ago. But the Supreme's "Money = speech" decision shot it all to hell...
Re: If you want to dump Trump....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
guido
Josh-- There was a strong push towards campaign finance reform in general some years ago. But the Supreme's "Money = speech" decision shot it all to hell...
A boy can dream.
Re: If you want to dump Trump....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Too Tall
A boy can dream.
I get it. But with the advent of social media and 24-hour news cycles, how would we ever remove money from the equation. Let's just pick a monarch and be done with it. Too bad they divorced, Brad and Angelina would have made a good royal couple complete with a crazy father in law.
Re: If you want to dump Trump....
I was somewhat hopeful that, after the Citizens United verdict, left, right, center, and everyone in between would come together to denounce that horrid decision, even if it was through their respective ideological lenses.
Alas.
Re: If you want to dump Trump....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
monadnocky
I was somewhat hopeful that, after the Citizens United verdict, left, right, center, and everyone in between would come together to denounce that horrid decision, even if it was through their respective ideological lenses.
Alas.
Mutually assured destruction. But at least it is well funded...
