What should a show bike be?

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Originally Posted by Slapshot

Ive said it before and I'll say it again, the awards are a huge part of the show. The attendees love it. It caps off the entire weekend.

Sorry all the builders hate them so much.

DW

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My problem with the awards is that they are not awarded based on any legitimate, objective criteria. They are just a feel good vote and are no reflection of the actual quality they imply.

For them to be of any value you need to select a panel of judges one of which is an expert in each area being judged. If the frame is judged on construction quality it needs to be unpainted when judged. Most importantly I think that frames should be submitted rather than just judged. The reason is that when a builders frame does not win it is implied to be less than that which does. If you require builders to submit a frame to be judged in each category it gives builders the option not to participate.

I was trying to do that this year. I have a panel president, or head judge, but the panel suggested to me was a bunch of CR lister's and all they care about are vintage bikes... not that there is anything wrong with that...

DW

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Originally Posted by Slapshot

vintage bikes...
DW

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narrow...

a good builder - one you want to buy a bike from - should be too busy getting their clients their bikes on time or {gasp} early to have time to make "popular mechanics 2025 concept car" material. just sayin' my take on awards {not that it means shit - it's not my show} is keep the voting to the people displaying, if you must have awards. this would have more meaning to the attendees as it should show what the group of peers feel really excells. just my dos centavos - probally not worth the paper it's printed on! steve.

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Originally Posted by steve garro

a good builder - one you want to buy a bike from - should be too busy getting their clients their bikes on time or {gasp} early to have time to make "popular mechanics 2025 concept car" material. just sayin' my take on awards {not that it means shit - it's not my show} is keep the voting to the people displaying, if you must have awards. this would have more meaning to the attendees as it should show what the group of peers feel really excells. just my dos centavos - probally not worth the paper it's printed on! steve.

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What this guy said.

dave

Quote:

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Originally Posted by steve garro

a good builder - one you want to buy a bike from - should be too busy getting their clients their bikes on time or {gasp} early to have time to make "popular mechanics 2025 concept car" material. just sayin' my take on awards {not that it means shit - it's not my show} is keep the voting to the people displaying, if you must have awards. this would have more meaning to the attendees as it should show what the group of peers feel really excells. just my dos centavos - probally not worth the paper it's printed on! steve.

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In the famous Model Engineer Exibition there are awards, however they are to a "Standard" to gain an award.
A maker submits their item to be the appropiate category, ie: 5" Steam Loco, IC engine etc.
Each item can only be entered once and once only for ever.
They are judged by a panel of judges who have long established careers in engineering and model making.
They use a marking system.


The awards are Gold, Silver, bronze and Highly Commended.

So it is possible no one gains a "Gold" if the standard is not reached to the level the judges deem needed to reach Gold.
It is possible that if more than one builder/item is of Gold Standard then more than one "Gold" can be awarded in that catergory.

In the current system, you could have three crap entries and one may win the trophy, because that is the best that there is on show that day. There is no standard/quality to meet.
Just beat the item next to yours in the comp.

I think a people's choice added to the medal standard awards is the go
if you must have awards.


Just an idea that I think has more merit than the current system.
Any thoughts?

Cheers Dazza:cool:

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Originally Posted by Dazza

Any thoughts?

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yeah - no awards atmo.
we are there as peers and equals, mutually supportive of each other and the trade.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dazza

In the famous Model Engineer Exibition there are awards, however they are to a "Standard" to gain an award.
A maker submits their item to be the appropiate category, ie: 5" Steam Loco, IC engine etc.
Each item can only be entered once and once only for ever.
They are judged by a panel of judges who have long established careers in engineering and model making.
They use a marking system.


The awards are Gold, Silver, bronze and Highly Commended.

So it is possible no one gains a "Gold" if the standard is not reached to the level the judges deem needed to reach Gold.
It is possible that if more than one builder/item is of Gold Standard then more than one "Gold" can be awarded in that catergory.

In the current system, you could have three crap entries and one may win the trophy, because that is the best that there is on show that day. There is no standard/quality to meet.
Just beat the item next to yours in the comp.

I think a people's choice added to the medal standard awards is the go
if you must have awards.


Just an idea that I think has more merit than the current system.
Any thoughts?

Cheers Dazza:cool:

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What this guy said too.

One other thing that no one has mentioned is the blatant campaigning on one builder's behalf, by another builder, to win an award. I know this happened in the past. One exhibitor goes to all his builder friends and urges them to vote for builder A because they feel he deserves some props in general. Not that builder A's bike is the best in that category but that the supporter feels it's time to have this guy recognized. Builder A didn't even know this was happening and certainly had no part in it. He just thinks he "won".

It takes only a very few votes cast this way to skew the results. When one looks at the numbers and thinks about how few votes it would take to change the results it's surprising.

Let's put at least one name to this - mine. Last year I won best fillet brazed bicycle for the frame I had displayed. It was good work and I was proud of it. But did it win because it was the best fillet work there or did it win because I've been in the business for a long time and know a lot of folks that would like to see me win? Was it the work or was it me? I don't know of any behind the scenes work on my behalf but I suppose there might have been. The point is there is no way of telling as it's a popularity contest that can be manipulated.

My point is that politics enters into this no matter what. It's not necessarily the best example of the work that wins. It might be and it might not. Want builder A to win an award? Get 1/2 dozen builders to vote for him and I bet it happens.

Now the public choice best in show deal is a different kettle of fish and it has it's own issues but that's for another time. I need to tune some skis.

dave

Dave,

A little behind the scene's, if-you-will, from the Portland show.

You were locked in a tie with another builder. It was decided by a non emotionally involved 3rd party as to who got the nod as the winner.

Both bikes were outstanding in craftsmanship, and if I personally had to call it, I would have issued a tie.

I try, as much as I possibly can, to be fair.

The Presidents Choice award is a different issue. Its whatever bike really triggers an emotion with me.

I'm not difficult to figure out.... i love track bikes....

DW

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Originally Posted by Slapshot

The Presidents Choice award is a different issue. Its whatever bike really triggers an emotion with me.

I'm not difficult to figure out.... i love track bikes....

DW

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Don - With all due respect, it seems that the built-in bias (track bikes) guarantees anyone not showing a track bike won't receive the same consideration. True?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Slapshot

Dave,

A little behind the scene's, if-you-will, from the Portland show.

You were locked in a tie with another builder. It was decided by a non emotionally involved 3rd party as to who got the nod as the winner.

Both bikes were outstanding in craftsmanship, and if I personally had to call it, I would have issued a tie.

DW

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Hey Don,

That's interesting if nothing else.

The two of us were tied - how many votes did we get? Just curious.

dave

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Originally Posted by 14max

Don - With all due respect, it seems that the built-in bias (track bikes) guarantees anyone not showing a track bike won't receive the same consideration. True?

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I thought I said

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Its whatever bike really triggers an emotion with me.

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as well....

DW

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Originally Posted by Dave Kirk

Hey Don,

That's interesting if nothing else.

The two of us were tied - how many votes did we get? Just curious.

dave

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Dave,

I dont recall? I think somewhere in the 40's or 50's...? Both of you were at least 20 votes above 3rd place, that much I recall...I suppose I could dig around for the tally sheet, if I can find the time to do it.

DW

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Slapshot

Dave,

I dont recall? I think somewhere in the 40's or 50's...? Both of you were at least 20 votes above 3rd place, that much I recall...I suppose I could dig around for the tally sheet, if I can find the time to do it.

DW

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DW,

Please don't make any extra work for yourself. It's not important.

thanks and back to your regularly scheduled programing.

dave

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dave Kirk

One other thing that no one has mentioned is the blatant campaigning on one builder's behalf, by another builder, to win an award. I know this happened in the past. One exhibitor goes to all his builder friends and urges them to vote for builder A because they feel he deserves some props in general. Not that builder A's bike is the best in that category but that the supporter feels it's time to have this guy recognized. Builder A didn't even know this was happening and certainly had no part in it. He just thinks he "won".

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was this one of those track bike things atmo?

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Originally Posted by e-RICHIE

was this one of those track bike things atmo?

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I don't think it was competing in the 120mm class. Banana.

dave

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Originally Posted by Dave Kirk

I don't think it was competing in the 120mm class. Banana.

dave

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sure - make yet another joke about a serious issue, an issue i am invested in and vocal about since the early days
in houston atmo. these awards are gay. and they send the wrong message. we can talk about the chads, and the
cronyism, and the, er - president's choice. but at the end of the day, all you, dave kirk, want is the truth huh. well
i have your inner framebuilder truth right here atmo: you can't handle the truth! son, we live in a world that has walls.
and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. who's gonna do it? you? you, carl "i am so" strong? i have a
greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. you weep for sacha and you curse the itty bitty tricycle. you have
that luxury. you have the luxury of not knowing what i know: that greg townsend's best of show paint award, while tragic,
probably saved lives. and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives...you don't want the truth.
because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. you need me on that wall. we use
words like alignment, stem angle, and atmo...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent creating something. you
use 'em as a punchline. i have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under
the blanket of the very entertainment i provide, then questions the manner in which i provide it! i'd rather you just said,
"Just sayin'" and went on your way. otherwise, i suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. either way, i don't give
a damn what you think you're entitled to!

http://www.eucatastrophe.com/blog/wp...-the-truth.jpg

Thank you sir, may I please have another!

PFC Dave

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sure - make yet another joke about a serious issue, an issue i am invested in and vocal about since the early days
in houston atmo. these awards are gay. and they send the wrong message. we can talk about the chads, and the
cronyism, and the, er - president's choice. but at the end of the day, all you, dave kirk, want is the truth huh. well
i have your inner framebuilder truth right here atmo: you can't handle the truth! son, we live in a world that has walls.
and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. who's gonna do it? you? you, carl "i am so" strong? i have a
greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. you weep for sacha and you curse the itty bitty tricycle. you have
that luxury. you have the luxury of not knowing what i know: that greg townsend's best of show paint award, while tragic,
probably saved lives. and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives...you don't want the truth.
because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. you need me on that wall. we use
words like alignment, stem angle, and atmo...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent creating something. you
use 'em as a punchline. i have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under
the blanket of the very entertainment i provide, then questions the manner in which i provide it! i'd rather you just said,
"Just sayin'" and went on your way. otherwise, i suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. either way, i don't give
a damn what you think you're entitled to!

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Sorry for barging in on the Telai-ista board, but that is the POTFM (Millenium)

OK how could DW NOT chuckle. ATMO you slay me boyeee.

Can I tell a small story? I restored a 1951 chevy truck some time ago. I did alot of the work myself and it is and never was intended to be a show truck. None the less it looks great and is pretty darn close to origional. It is very common for folks to talk to me in parking lots and relate fond memories of their dad's truck etc etc. Those conversations about the passion and love, nostalgia for good things are pure gold....than there are the dopes who ask me if I "show" and will point out things about my truck that are "not right" or could be done better. I say eff' them I use the thing and dig it just fine I'll NEVER show the truck...wait I'm getting to my point yo ;)

When I go to car shows I bybass the judged "winners".
These shows have "judged" awards based on class / category eg. the folks who enter their cars know in advance what is being scored. Basically they have a playbook. You can buy a car that will slay at the shows...apparently it is a popular rich mans thing to do...or so I hear. HAHA often these cars are much better than when they came out of the factory...what the he!!!? Feh.

To balance that out and BECAUSE the avg. schmuck has zero interest in owning/paying for and keeping a trailer queen you have PEOPLE'S Choice awards. Folks MOB these cars and fawn over them with beers in hand and lots of childish OOOOs and Aaaaahhs...THAT'S what I'm talking about:) PASSION, Childish adoration and emotional wellings...not a dry eye in the house. These people's choice awards are connected to a practical side of the beauty and craft of restoration, ownership and having an old car....in a word you "could" drive them and infact most of these cats do drive their cars. They are real as real can be.

Hear me...if NAHBS is about handbuilt "things" that are utilitarian in nature why have awards that are anything other than popular?

If you have a "judged" category fine offer a playbook I think there will be folks who aspire to be the kings and queens of this aspect and will have followers.

I've typed too fast. There are sure to be mistakes. xxoo, Too Tall.

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Originally Posted by Too Tall

If you have a "judged" category fine offer a playbook I think there will be folks who aspire to be the kings and queens of this aspect and will have followers.

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ruff ruff atmo -

I only buy frames from winners ;)

this crap is wearing me down and I don't like it.

DW

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Originally Posted by Slapshot

this crap is wearing me down and I don't like it.

DW

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YouTube - Mario Savio: Sproul Hall Steps, December 2, 1964

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Originally Posted by Dave Kirk

I like to think that any of the bikes at the show could be wheeled out the door and taken for a long hard ride and used in their element.
Dave

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That just about sums it up.

Bling is just fine ..... I love Bling, but it should also enhance functionality.

------------
How about glimpses into the future ? What if Campy shows up with a
12 speed prototype? Shimano introduces a crank that also catches fish?

:D

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Originally Posted by Slapshot

this crap is wearing me down and I don't like it.

DW

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making you feel all...

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m...IMG_0166-1.jpg

I'm really glad we can all find humor in it.

me? not so much.

DW

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Originally Posted by Slapshot

I'm really glad we can all find humor in it.

me? not so much.

DW

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YouTube - Roy Orbison - Crying

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Slapshot

I'm really glad we can all find humor in it.

me? not so much.

DW

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don't get all me me me personal about this and shit atmo.
we appreciate nahbs and the effort behind it. your decisions
are not always the best ones. we view the awards thing as
a bad one, or at least one deserving of discussion - which is
what we are doing after carl started the thread. i have been
against these since day one, and have put my money where
my mouth is by never allowing my bicycles to be judged once
nahbs left houston. the others can make their choices atmo.
the show isn't perfect. some of us who care about it and have
accepted it into our daily routine are allowed to have strong
opinions, and we are voicing them here.

http://www.jigser.com/images/shop/ca...r-card_24a.gif

im out.

DW

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Originally Posted by Slapshot

im out.

DW

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Don,
Why are you unwilling to HEAR other people's opinion? OK you want the awards. Fine it is your show and the awards will stay. I actually have less issue with the awards and a bigger issue with the trophy's. They are stupid, big, ugly and a waste on MY money. I have one sitting in my warehouse that will continue to collect dust until i finally feel it is in the way and get rid of it. I WANT TO MAKE THE AWARD FOR THE NEXT BEST OFF ROAD!!!!!!!!!!

I have said it before and will say it again. The trophy's are stupid. Even a plaque is better.

I guess you want the feel of the voting, awards and setting things on a higher level (if the awards do that sort of thing?).

I will not deny i liked winning the award. This year i will need to make a decision about how i feel about the process. I was under the impression there would be a panel of judges but i am now thinking that is a non reality. That would be my vote.

RELAX, have a Coke and a smile. It is all just criticism and it is also coming from PAYING customers so you really should accept it.

Cheers,
Drew

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Originally Posted by EnginCycles

Don,
Even a plague is better.

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ummm... drew?

i had the plague once, bubonic - it sucked

give me atrophy any day

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hampco

ummm... drew?

i had the plague once, bubonic - it sucked

give me atrophy any day

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yea typed it faster and lacked spell check (well i spelled the word right just wrong letter). I fixed it. Thanks, what a response buster.

Later,
Drew

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hampco

ummm... drew?

i had the plague once, bubonic - it sucked

give me atrophy any day

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OH GOD - CAN'T BREATHE!

that is so freaking hilarious, i can't stand it.

- taz

now back to your regularly scheduled programming

double entry. sorry

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EnginCycles

Don,
Why are you unwilling to HEAR other people's opinion? OK you want the awards. Fine it is your show and the awards will stay. I actually have less issue with the awards and a bigger issue with the trophy's. They are stupid, big, ugly and a waste on MY money. I have one sitting in my warehouse that will continue to collect dust until i finally feel it is in the way and get rid of it. I WANT TO MAKE THE AWARD FOR THE NEXT BEST OFF ROAD!!!!!!!!!!

I have said it before and will say it again. The trophy's are stupid. Even a plaque is better.

I guess you want the feel of the voting, awards and setting things on a higher level (if the awards do that sort of thing?).

I will not deny i liked winning the award. This year i will need to make a decision about how i feel about the process. I was under the impression there would be a panel of judges but i am now thinking that is a non reality. That would be my vote.

RELAX, have a Coke and a smile. It is all just criticism and it is also coming from PAYING customers so you really should accept it.

Cheers,
Drew

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Drew,

I realize I (NAHBS) cant be everything to everybody. I also realize that my sensitivity to it all is a bit extreme this close to the show. we are a month out and the list of crap I have to do grows faster than I can do it.



DW

Hey Don

Feeling overwhelmed ? :boy_hug:

I offered to help, once I got out there. Arriving Wed night with Kelly.
I'll be there the whole show ..... :smile:

No-one got back to me. My offer is still there.
You name it ... I'll do it !! :adore:

:D

Don, It is obvious through conversations that we have had off-line and through everything that you have said online that the awards are important to you. And that you think that the awards are important for NAHBS.

I was thinking about it yesterday and for the life of me, I can't figure out why you feel this way. From the outsiders perspective:

- There is no financial benefit to NAHBS (I'm thinking that they actually cost you money).
- It doesn't bring more attention to your own personal bike brands.
-The ceremony at the end doesn't draw all that big of a crowd and isn't a big media focus.
- Many of the builders who (should) matter, think that the awards have no place in a show like NAHBS and have been expressing this more and more clearly and frequently.


So my question is why is it so important to you to have awards. Why do you feel so strongly about keeping them around?

To be clear, this is not meant as an attack, or as a way of making one person right and another wrong, so I hope you don't take it that way. But with all the talk about awards lately, I think we could all benefit from understanding your perspective on the matter a little better.

-Sacha

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sacha white

Don, It is obvious through conversations that we have had off-line and through everything that you have said online that the awards are important to you. And that you think that the awards are important for NAHBS.

I was thinking about it yesterday and for the life of me, I can't figure out why you feel this way. From the outsiders perspective:

- There is no financial benefit to NAHBS (I'm thinking that they actually cost you money).
- It doesn't bring more attention to your own personal bike brands.
-The ceremony at the end doesn't draw all that big of a crowd and isn't a big media focus.
- Many of the builders who (should) matter, think that the awards have no place in a show like NAHBS and have been expressing this more and more clearly and frequently.


So my question is why is it so important to you to have awards. Why do you feel so strongly about keeping them around?

To be clear, this is not meant as an attack, or as a way of making one person right and another wrong, so I hope you don't take it that way. But with al the talk about awards lately, I think we could all benefit from understanding your perspective on the matter a little better.

-Sacha

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My guess is it's a case of going to Abilene.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sacha white

Don, It is obvious through conversations that we have had off-line and through everything that you have said online that the awards are important to you. And that you think that the awards are important for NAHBS.

I was thinking about it yesterday and for the life of me, I can't figure out why you feel this way. From the outsiders perspective:

- There is no financial benefit to NAHBS (I'm thinking that they actually cost you money).
- It doesn't bring more attention to your own personal bike brands.
-The ceremony at the end doesn't draw all that big of a crowd and isn't a big media focus..

- Many of the builders who (should) matter, think that the awards have no place in a show like NAHBS and have been expressing this more and more clearly and frequently.


So my question is why is it so important to you to have awards. Why do you feel so strongly about keeping them around?

To be clear, this is not meant as an attack, or as a way of making one person right and another wrong, so I hope you don't take it that way. But with all the talk about awards lately, I think we could all benefit from understanding your perspective on the matter a little better.

-Sacha

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Almost every industry that has a show or showcase has some sort of awards within. Whether it be the Westminster dog show, the music industry, Screen Actors Guild, etc all have some sort of awards for recognizing the achievements of its members. I feel in the handmade industry, its also important to have recognition for those who have proven themselves to be the upper echelon to their peers and the public.

It costs me money to have awards. However, I feel that its worth every penny. To see builders get some recognition, with more of it coming from some main media outlets. I know quite a few builders who have benefited from this exposure.


I have sacrificed much of my time each year just to make sure NAHBS happens. Its obvious my integrity lies within our industry and not just for my own brand.


The last few years, we have had photographers lining up 20-30 minutes ahead of the awards for a prime location to shoot the winners. In PDX, there were people that were so crowded around the stage area that it took a while for some of the winners to actually make it to the stage. Velonews did a report on the winners in Portland, as well as other mags/rags.


All of the builders matter. The problem is one that cant be easily solved and have everyone feel that its fair, but unfortunately "fair" is something that can never be agreed upon unanimously.

If I cut out the awards all together, we have no climax to the show on Sunday.

Having the awards on Sunday is the perfect close to the weekend of hanging out with your brethren. It makes the weekend seem "complete". As stated above, it's a climax to the entire previous year. Some folks go home and post pics of the winners on flickr, photobucket or whatever other hosting site, websites, blogs, etc. It provides the opportunity to have extra pics and/or notoriety, which is essentially added "free" publicity. No one can complain about extra publicity. You cannot put a price on that kind of exposure.



If you have any additional questions, please email me directly.

Mods, please lock this thread.

DW