The Business End of Things
The has risen out of several recent threads but I'm just going to launch and talk about that later.
I'd like us to talk about the challenges of bicyclemaking as a business. Opinions can range from "Just work at the bench for thirty years and you'll know whats right ATMO" to "I've come to this from completely out of left field having never been involved in this trade but I believe I understand business and I think I have something to offer".
In case you can't guess, I'm the second of these. Once this vintage is over I intend to try to make the transition to bicyclemaking as a business, you'll be able to watch me crash and burn as it happens on my upcoming Smoked Out thread.
To open the discussion with something positive:
In my opinion, the most important question any small business wannabe needs to answer is "Why me?" as in "What will I be offering that would make a customer choose me over the abundance of alternatives?"
Feel free to disagree with, posit alternatives to or illustrate my point.
Your time starts now.
Re: The Business End of Things
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mark Kelly
The has risen out of several recent threads but I'm just going to launch and talk about that later.
I'd like us to talk about the challenges of bicyclemaking as a business. Opinions can range from "Just work at the bench for thirty years and you'll know whats right ATMO" to "I've come to this from completely out of left field having never been involved in this trade but I believe I understand business and I think I have something to offer".
In case you can't guess, I'm the second of these. Once this vintage is over I intend to try to make the transition to bicyclemaking as a business, you'll be able to watch me crash and burn as it happens on my upcoming Smoked Out thread.
To open the discussion with something positive:
In my opinion, the most important question any small business wannabe needs to answer is "Why me?" as in "What will I be offering that would make a customer choose me over the abundance of alternatives?"
Feel free to disagree with, posit alternatives to or illustrate my point.
Your time starts now.
The why me question has value assuming you are trained, skilled, and have some experience. It also helps to know where the product fits into the larger picture. A sense of history, and respect for it, would be an asset.
Re: The Business End of Things
And I hope the answer to that question will come out of the smoked out thread or similar discussions, rather than here, which I wanted to be about what needs to be considered.
The ATMO was meant to be a gentle dig, Richard. Anyone who has any interest in this field knows, or at least ought to know, who you are and what you've done.
If I've given offence I apologise, but in a way your response illustrates my point: trained in what? skilled in what? have some experience in what?
Amongst other things I trained as an aeronautical engineer. Amongst other things I have skills in designing and making specialist audio electronics. Amongst other things I have experience in a business developing my IP in the process technology field and as manager / winemaker for small high end wineries.
Are these things transferrable to bikes? We'll see.
Re: The Business End of Things
Re: The Business End of Things
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mark Kelly
the most important question any small business wannabe needs to answer is "Why me?" as in "What will I be offering that would make a customer choose me over the abundance of alternatives?"
Feel free to disagree with, posit alternatives to or illustrate my point.
that question gets answered by the abundant far more important questions that haven't been asked. but does come with 30 or even 3 years at the bench. the question you asked is an academic marketing exorcise IMO.
Re: The Business End of Things
Ok, so what, for you, are these abundant far more important questions?
BTW I agree that that question can be merely an academic marketing exercise, but the answer shouldn't be if it is to have any worth. It should reflect what drove you into doing this in the first place.
One of my favourite quotes is from Dame Gillian Weir, the great NZ organist when someone said they were thinking of going into music: "If you are thinking you might do it, don't. Only do it if you can't think of yourself as anything else"
Re: The Business End of Things
i'm still answering them for myself and mine are not yours are not mine.
i dont think my answer is that far off from your fav quote down there. diff but similar. if you are here for help to answering that for yourself then you may be asking the wrong question.
i'm not trying to be a smart ass but your approach seems a bit philosophical.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mark Kelly
Ok, so what, for you, are these abundant far more important questions?
BTW I agree that that question can be merely an academic marketing exercise, but the answer shouldn't be if it is to have any worth. It should reflect what drove you into doing this in the first place.
One of my favourite quotes is from Dame Gillian Weir, the great NZ organist when someone said they were thinking of going into music: "If you are thinking you might do it, don't. Only do it if you can't think of yourself as anything else"
Re: The Business End of Things
No, I'm not here for help, I'm here because I'm at the other end of the spectrum from the likes of Richard and Dario and I feel that the conversation here tends to lean a bit much to their point of view. This is to be expected: they are stand-out representatives of what many others would like to achieve and we can all learn something from them, including me. What we can't do is replicate the thirty years at the bench.
One of the threads that predicated this one is Stijl Cycles Smoked Out. I love "making since before maker was cool" and I appreciate the sense in having a business thread restricted to those who are already established, but I also think it's a worthwhile topic for those who aren't (yet).
This thread isn't meant to be about me, except in the sense that I'm prepared to advocate a point of view that is very different from many others'. For instance, I would genuinely love to hear a few of the smaller questions you feel are relevant to you. I then hope that those of us just starting out can work out what's relevant to us.
BTW to me "a bit philosophical" is not an insult. Amongst other things I trained in Philosophy, my field of interest was the intersection between formal logic, the philosophy of natural language and cognitive neurophysiology. I was all set to do a PhD in this but I worked out that the only jobs available were teaching philosophy.
Re: The Business End of Things
I have a question for anyone who is on the far left hand side of the evolution timeline and who wants to be a framebuilder. I going to define the term as tradesman who takes money for his wares. The question is this: What is the #@/?ing rush to get to the market atmo?
Re: The Business End of Things
The market has changed in the last 30 years -- gone are the days you could go to England (or Italy, or where ever) and apprentice under a builder and produce 200 frames before you'd think about hanging out a shingle. Oh, sure, go to Taiwan and build? Anyway, we don't have 200 family and close friends for which to build before hitting the open market. So the question becomes: How does one build "enough" to have market confidence?
I wrote a piece inspired by the reaction to the comments on Pedalino's interview on Bike Rumor which delves a little bit into the question, but no answers.
I see some of these questions as separate issues: skills (design and fabrication), and business acumen (marketing and just plain RUNNING a business).
But as to the $^@&ing rush... In my own case, it's not a rush to get to full-timing it (I don't even really WANT to go full-time), but to at least get to where it's paying for itself, and maybe a little vacay money now and then.
Re: The Business End of Things
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mark Kelly
No, I'm not here for help, I'm here because I'm at the other end of the spectrum from the likes of Richard and Dario and I feel that the conversation here tends to lean a bit much to their point of view. This is to be expected: they are stand-out representatives of what many others would like to achieve and we can all learn something from them, including me. What we can't do is replicate the thirty years at the bench.
One of the threads that predicated this one is Stijl Cycles
Smoked Out. I love "making since before maker was cool" and I appreciate the sense in having a business thread restricted to those who are already established, but I also think it's a worthwhile topic for those who aren't (yet).
This thread isn't meant to be about me, except in the sense that I'm prepared to advocate a point of view that is very different from many others'. For instance, I would genuinely love to hear a few of the smaller questions you feel are relevant to you. I then hope that those of us just starting out can work out what's relevant to us.
BTW to me "a bit philosophical" is not an insult. Amongst other things I trained in Philosophy, my field of interest was the intersection between formal logic, the philosophy of natural language and cognitive neurophysiology. I was all set to do a PhD in this but I worked out that the only jobs available were teaching philosophy.
sorry, i got hung up on the "why me" part. i'll let the likes of Dario and RS help you with the rest. i've got lights to keep on.
Re: The Business End of Things
That the market has changed should be a warning sign to anyone who thinks he can crack a window and compete with present status quo. And, England, Italy, or not, I rarely read about someone whose path includes the willingness to spend the time training, doing, and making to the point that he has the equal of the experience you describe. The question becomes, what will you give up in return for this information? Will you work for free? Would you relocate for a year or more? What's your investment?
Re: The Business End of Things
I'm not quite sure what the question is, but I do want to touch on a sentiment I hear repeated:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
David Tollefson
The market has changed in the last 30 years -- gone are the days you could go to England (or Italy, or where ever) and apprentice under a builder and produce 200 frames before you'd think about hanging out a shingle. Oh, sure, go to Taiwan and build?
The first part- the "apprentice under an old world master" part, was virtually never true. Sure, it happened occasionally, but most of the US guys went over and got jobs.
The second part- "there are no builders to learn building from", is currently not true. Bike Friday, Co-Motion, Seven, Indy Fab, Cielo, Vanilla and Moots (and others I'm forgetting or haven't heard about) all advertise and hire people. Many of those in the last year. If you want to go to college, you go to college. If you want to go work at a bike company (ie- not wax for the myth of the old world apprenticeship) fill out and application and fly or buss out there and get a job.
It is still a possible route.
To address the business/ fabrication skill. Both are moving targets, but both should have at least some sort of trained base. I took community college small business classes. I built several thousand frames at BF before striking out solo. I still learn things every day.
Re: The Business End of Things
Quote:
Originally Posted by
David Tollefson
So the question becomes: How does one build "enough" to have market confidence?
I wrote a piece inspired by the reaction to the comments on Pedalino's interview on Bike Rumor which delves a little bit into the question, but no answers.
David, thanks for the link, love the concept of the "moral number".
I once walked into a management job with a large food manufacturer, an industry in which I had no experience but which operates on principles which I understood. I was suddenly responsible for one of the most popular children's snack foods in the country. I managed not to poison anyone.
Re: The Business End of Things
First thing you learn when trying to live on making bicycles is you have to take is as a job, as any other job, not the recurrent idealized videoclip of top ramen flamed beared artistic minded individual
Before applying for a job you need to get training, experience, knowledge, for real, so to be competent for the position. it shoulnd't happen to sell the product before there's even a product
One of the common mistakes is to put the cart before the horse, considering the marketing side beforehand, including fancy websites, flourishments or downtube name fonts. And I know that because I've been there myself.
This is not about hobby or leisure options, this is not about something to post on social networks to show off some friends. This is about paying your own life bills, and this requires true commitment, requires doing what's necessary to be true. Either it's moving abroad to take a job position at some workshop or buy some proper tooling and practice time (the most expensive investment).
So far, I feel the best business plan is to get such a strong knowledge on the process and muscular memory that the product speaks for itself. Then, all the rest, call it marketing, customer service or any other of the (also important) side questions will be variations on different approaches, and as each one of us are different, there will always be different customers to match according to these different perspectives. Endless people eager to try different tastes, but there's never hungry people for shit food
Although, anyway, yesterday I saw Woody Allen's movie with one of those phrases that says it all: "Whatever works"
Re: The Business End of Things
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Estlund
I'm not quite sure what the question is, but I do want to touch on a sentiment I hear repeated:
The first part- the "apprentice under an old world master" part, was virtually never true. Sure, it happened occasionally, but most of the US guys went over and got jobs.
The second part- "there are no builders to learn building from", is currently not true. Bike Friday, Co-Motion, Seven, Indy Fab, Cielo, Vanilla and Moots (and others I'm forgetting or haven't heard about) all advertise and hire people. Many of those in the last year. If you want to go to college, you go to college. If you want to go work at a bike company (ie- not wax for the myth of the old world apprenticeship) fill out and application and fly or buss out there and get a job.
It is still a possible route.
To address the business/ fabrication skill. Both are moving targets, but both should have at least some sort of trained base. I took community college small business classes. I built several thousand frames at BF before striking out solo. I still learn things every day.
I agree with all that Eric has said and wish to add to it. What has changed is people used to think the way into the industry was through the industry. Now people want to and have the ability to do an end around on coming up through the ranks. Like Eric pointed out, there are opportunities to get the training and most importantly repetitions but few opt in. That's what's changed.
Re: The Business End of Things
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mark Kelly
The has risen out of several recent threads but I'm just going to launch and talk about that later.
I think the "business end of things" is the "later" part. The current thread would be more akin to the philosophy or self reflection end of things.
I'd be interested in thoughts on the "later" part, or business end. The questions in Stijl's thread are good ones.
I think the "why me" are good topics for Smoked Out threads (which I read every one from start to finish.)
Re: The Business End of Things
Quote:
Originally Posted by
David Tollefson
I wrote a piece inspired by the reaction to the comments on Pedalino's interview on Bike Rumor which delves a little bit into the question, but no answers.
And in it, you've mis-characterized me, or taken information out of context, or both.
Re: The Business End of Things
I bet if we met (and I hope some day we do), we'd both laugh about it over a brew.
But I know that there are really only two things one can effectively teach: (1) This is what I did, do (or don't do) that, or (2) This is what "X" did, do that. But neither of those mean that it is the only way to success. I (hopefully) am not so full of hubris as to think I can just forge my way into the market sans information from those who've gone (and are going) before.
Re: The Business End of Things
Quote:
Originally Posted by
David Tollefson
I bet if we met (and I hope some day we do), we'd both laugh about it over a brew.
But I know that there are really only two things one can effectively teach: (1) This is what I did, do (or don't do) that, or (2) This is what "X" did, do that. But neither of those mean that it is the only way to success. I (hopefully) am not so full of hubris as to think I can just forge my way into the market sans information from those who've gone (and are going) before.
Agreed - I'm nothing like myself in real life atmo.
